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      11-18-2018, 07:48 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Verstappens driving record is not relevant here. Ocon got punished for his move which shows that Verstappen was not at fault but Ocon was.
Ocon had no right to push him off the track the way he did.
You might think differently, but the people who have a say in this decided it was Ocons fault.
The only thing Verstappen did wrong was his behaviour right after the race, but I can imagine he was pumped with adrenaline after being illegally pushed off the track by a lesser driver.
Punishment is not evidence, although we all clearly agree that Ocon was at least responsible for a majority. Ocon didn't push him off the track though. Ocon was squeezed off of the inside of the track. Would you say that it was in Max's best interest to assume that Ocon, who was alongside him in the turn just prior, would disappear from alongside him?
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      11-18-2018, 08:05 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Max's long string of poor decisions leading him to the *Guinness Book of Records* !!!


As I said in previous posts there is no denying his talent. But, heíll never be a F1 Champion unless he learns to avoid situations like this.

As somebody else said itíll be interesting/fun to see if Ocon gets into a car/team comparable to MVs and then see what happens.
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      11-18-2018, 08:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Ocon was squeezed off of the inside of the track.
At that time verstappen was ahead of Ocon. Look at the footage:


Does this look like a good move to unlap oneself?

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Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Punishment is not evidence,
No punishment follows after the parties that have the mandate to judge found one guilty.
Therefore Ocon is the guilty one.
I dont see why you doubt the decision of the FIA race director. I bet he knows a lot more on this than all of us together here.

If Ocon planned his overtake like he should have he wouldnt have been 10 carlengths behind when turning up on the straight and could have used DRS at the beginning of the straight completely overtaking him on the straight instead of now only able to put his car next to verstappen at the end of the straight.
It was a poorly planned/executed overtaking situation. He didnt have the patience to wait another lap to place his car correctly at the beginning of the straight to do a proper overtake. He fucked up and wanted to hold his ground on the next corner. He had no right to do that being 1 lap behind and he got punished by the officials for that poor move.
Thats what happened.

If Ocon didnt make a mistake, he wouldnt have recieved his punishment. Its that simple.
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      11-18-2018, 08:30 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
At that time verstappen was ahead of Ocon. Look at the footage:


Does this look like a good move to unlap oneself?



No punishment follows after the parties that have the mandate to judge found one guilty.
Therefore Ocon is the guilty one.
Yea, it looks like Verstappen is on track and Ocon is off track? You said Ocon pushed him off track and it does not look that way. Perhaps this is a semantic argument...

It does not look like a good move for Ocon to unlap himself. However, it also does not look like a good move for Verstappen to squeeze him off the track. But if you and M Power Belgium want to relieve Max of all fault in him losing his win, you are entitled.

And mandated punishment does not necessarily follow all guilty parties. Are judicial systems infallible?
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      11-18-2018, 08:39 PM   #71
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I'm sure you're much more knowledgable than the FIA race director...

He said Ocon's move was "wholly unacceptable".

Verstappen kept his driving line as he is entitled as race leader compared to someone he has lapped.

Ocon wanted to stand his ground and decided not to back off (maybe because he got the go ahead from his team). And he got his punishment for that.

I honestly dont know why this is a debate. Its pretty arrogant to think you know things better than the FIA Race director. The race director can judge penalties given by the stewards, but he didnt. That says enough imho. And the race director is a key person in defining the sporting regulations what's and what's not acceptable on the track.

He said about Ocon's overtaking action: "Drivers unlapping themselves has happened many times in the past, but of course you expect it to be done safely. More to the point, it should be done cleanly and absolutely without fighting -- you shouldn't be fighting to get past."
And thats why Ocon was at fault.
Its like I said, he couldnt overtake verstappen on the straight because of his poor car placement at the beginning of the straigth, leaving a huge gap. He could only place his car next to verstappen at the end of the straigth. At that point he should have backed down and try it at another spot, but instead he decided not to and place his car on the inside of verstappen in the next corner where there was no space. In the pic I placed its very clear that verstappen was in front of Ocon.

And its not about infallibility of judicial systems. It's a race. And the stewards (and race director) get to determine who's wrong and who's right. Not you or me, or the drivers or team bosses for that matter.
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      11-18-2018, 09:58 PM   #72
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You keep arguing that Ocon was at fault and deserved a penalty, but I always agreed with that part...so I don't see why you say I disagreed with the stewards decision to punish Ocon. Maybe there is a misinterpretation here. The judicial system reference was just a side comment that probably confused the matter.

I don't understand what you want me to say though....Max did exactly what he should've done to win? He couldn't have done anything differently and won? His action was the best action possible in that scenario? He had no idea a car was racing him and putting his result at risk by fighting intensely?

Let me propose an exaggerated hypothetical to explain what I mean. If you are driving on the highway and see a car driving the wrong way on the exit you need to take, will you take the exit anyways and assume/hope they change course or stop going the wrong way, or just take the next exit and lose some time?
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      11-19-2018, 02:22 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Let me propose an exaggerated hypothetical to explain what I mean. If you are driving on the highway and see a car driving the wrong way on the exit you need to take, will you take the exit anyways and assume/hope they change course or stop going the wrong way, or just take the next exit and lose some time?
The werent driving on the highway so I dont see the point. Lets just keep it to the real situation at hand.

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I don't understand what you want me to say though....Max did exactly what he should've done to win?
Its imho not a matter of what Max should have done, its a matter of what Ocon shouldn't have done. Isnt that clear?

If a leading driver should be careful every time a lesser driver comes in view that is a lap behind, other drivers are going to take advantage on that.
Thats why for example the blue flag system is in play, to seperate the race the leaders are driving from the guys way back in the field. Almost every race class handles these kind of situations the same.
I dont understand why its so difficult to understand that. The explanation from the race director was quite clear I think? I had no problems understanding that at least.

After the failed overtaking attempt of Ocon on the straight I think Verstappen expected Ocon to back down (like he should have) and try it at another spot. Instead Ocon held his ground forcing his car into the side of Verstappens car who drove the driving line in the next corner.
This is a scenario you expect when 2 drivers are batteling for the same finishspot but not when one driver is trailing a lap. I'm sure when this was for a finish place Verstappen would have handled it differently because you can expect someone who's fighting you for the same spot isnt going to back down. But you cant expect someone who's trailing a lap behind to go in all gung ho in order to unlap himself. The rules say thats not allowed.

Ocon's chances at toro rosso next year are probably nil right now if that is still playing. If he got ditched there, this was probably revenge.
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      11-19-2018, 05:03 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
He didnt block Ocon. He kept driving the ideal driving line.
Ocon forced him aside in the corner where the crash happened. Ocon wasnt even past him when they crashed. Even if this was a fight for a place this wouldnt be allowed imho.
Ocon got punished for his move so there is no question who made the illegal move.

Only in hindsight can one say that if he let Ocon pass and offered up some precious seconds from his lead that would be the right move but at that point in the race he still had to complete almost 30 rounds and the lead he had over Hamilton was only 10-15 sec or so. Loosing 1 or 2 sec then is a big deal. You dont know if there will be more of these situations.
Verstappen rightfully said about hamiltons remarks that thats easy coming from someone who's driving in 2nd place and gets the victory thrown in his lap.

He did, he moved to the centre of the track. He should have stayed on the racing line, which is on the right.
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      11-19-2018, 05:38 AM   #75
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do you mean on the straight or in the corner where the actual crash happened?
(I was talking about that last one)
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      11-19-2018, 10:19 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
As I said in previous posts there is no denying his talent. But, he’ll never be a F1 Champion unless he learns to avoid situations like this.

As somebody else said it’ll be interesting/fun to see if Ocon gets into a car/team comparable to MVs and then see what happens.
It would be even more interesting to see Max in a Merc and see what happens..

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      11-19-2018, 10:20 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
It would be even more interesting to see Max in a Merc and see what happens..
I don't think they are immune to crashing either.
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      11-19-2018, 10:26 AM   #78
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I don't think they are immune to crashing either.
I agree. And that's why I posted this picture in # 61 => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1554472&page=3
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      11-19-2018, 10:56 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
I agree. And that's why I posted this picture in # 61 => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1554472&page=3
FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.
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      11-19-2018, 11:36 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.
Indeed . No worries my friend..With Max in the coming years , F1 action is guaranteed !
Of course all depends from the power and the reliability of the new 2019 Honda engine .

God Bless Max and Red Bull number 33 !
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      11-19-2018, 01:54 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
do you mean on the straight or in the corner where the actual crash happened?
(I was talking about that last one)
On the pit straight, before the first corner. Had he stayed on the racing line (right) there, Ocon would have easily gone past on the inside of T1.
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      11-19-2018, 02:10 PM   #82
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Ocon couldn't get past Verstappen on the straight, see the footage.
If Ocon placed his car on the inside, Verstappen wouldn't be able to follow the racing line, because Ocon would be there then.

Ocon should have made sure that he didn't fall behind when entering the straight, but instead he let a 10 car gap fall, creating the situation for himself that despite his better tyres, and despite DRS he couldn't make up for that gap and pass Verstappen without hindering him. It was a very very poorly orchestrated move. And he decided not to back down and try again and wait for a better oppertunity, instead he decided to hold his ground resulting in the crash. Only serves him right that he got punished for it by the FIA. 10sec. stop/go and 3 penalty points. Not that those points are going to hurt him, the chances that he's in F1 next year are slim.
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      11-19-2018, 03:26 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.
For sure. I love watching Max battle. It's usually the most exciting part of these races.
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      11-19-2018, 04:08 PM   #84
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For sure. I love watching Max battle. It's usually the most exciting part of these races.
Exactly my friend ! From what he showed this season , a race without Max would be never the same again...and perhaps even boring .
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      11-19-2018, 11:22 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Ocon couldn't get past Verstappen on the straight, see the footage.
If Ocon placed his car on the inside, Verstappen wouldn't be able to follow the racing line, because Ocon would be there then.

Ocon should have made sure that he didn't fall behind when entering the straight, but instead he let a 10 car gap fall, creating the situation for himself that despite his better tyres, and despite DRS he couldn't make up for that gap and pass Verstappen without hindering him. It was a very very poorly orchestrated move. And he decided not to back down and try again and wait for a better oppertunity, instead he decided to hold his ground resulting in the crash. Only serves him right that he got punished for it by the FIA. 10sec. stop/go and 3 penalty points. Not that those points are going to hurt him, the chances that he's in F1 next year are slim.
https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Watch around 3:04, Max moved to the left, off the racing line. It's as clear as daylight.
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      11-20-2018, 04:58 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mk1-fan View Post
https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Watch around 3:04, Max moved to the left, off the racing line. It's as clear as daylight.
The leader determines the racing line imo.
Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would.
Ocon didn't overtake him on the straight because his whole move was poorly executed and way too aggressive resulting in the crash in T2 which was completely Ocon's fault according to the FIA race director.
So yeah you might not agree, but Charlie Whiting IS the FIA race director.
If he thought it was Verstappens fault, he would have said so. Its not that he didn't reprimand Verstappen before.....
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      11-20-2018, 07:00 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
The leader determines the racing line imo.
Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would.
Ocon didn't overtake him on the straight because his whole move was poorly executed and way too aggressive resulting in the crash in T2 which was completely Ocon's fault according to the FIA race director.
So yeah you might not agree, but Charlie Whiting IS the FIA race director.
If he thought it was Verstappens fault, he would have said so. Its not that he didn't reprimand Verstappen before.....
Really? That is just laughable. The racing line is the fastest line. If you don't even know that, then this whole discussion is hopeless.

I have 6 years of racing experience, and this bit here shows you just don't have an inkling of how racing works.
"Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would"

Of course he didn't want to be on the outside of T1, as Ocon would easily have gone past. And that is the whole problem, Verstappen didn't think anything through. His big ego was in the way of everything.

But anyway, this is my last post on this topic, I see no reason discussing anything further here.
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      11-20-2018, 07:10 AM   #88
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Whats laughable that you think you know better with your '6 years racing experience' whatever that may be, than the FIA race director.
You know what he said. And still you think you know better....LOL
Guess thats why he's the FIA race director and you're just some guy on a forum. It's really stupid to question the expertise of a guy like that as he's pretty much the guy who's getting to tell whats allowed and what isnt.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you don't get Charlie Whiting's explanation.

Besides if he would end up at the outside of t1, it clearly wouldnt have been the fastest line.
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