OG Shark's Race Build

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

I think the main knock against them is uneven pad wear.

The other thing as SYT_Shadow mentioned is that Essex markets their product as a premium product, even though the Pro 5000 R caliper series is actually an "entry-level" product according to AP Racing's website. See for yourself: https://apracing.com/race-car/brake-...o-5000-r-range

There are actually two caliper lines that slot above the 5000 R series: 1) The 5000+ series (EDIT, I can't actually tell if 5000+ slots above the R), or 2) the GT/Touring car line-up.

I have been looking at CP5095 caliper and it would have exactly the same torque as the CP9668 caliper. It's also about a pounder lighter while holding the same size of pad (25mm). Just need someone to fab brackets but that's not exactly rocket science.

https://apracing.com/race-car/brake-...adi-cal-cp5095

//steve\\ - I think Schirmer runs either something from the 5000+ line (CP5270 up front) or the CP5095 from the GT/Touring line.

I personally have experienced pretty consistent pad wear; definitely not saying others haven't had the opposite - just that I have not seen it and hasn't been the case during my usage. Now if you have seen or heard otherwise that is certainly something to consider when selecting a kit to go with - but know that there are many of us out there that have been happy with how are AP setups have performed.

The entry level thing - it is possible one company's "entry level" can be better than another company's "premium". The opposite is certainly true - but just saying that because it is a company's entry level does not make it a poor product. It also does not mean it has to be an inferior product compared to another company's "premium" stuff. I don't think Essex is trying to make it sound like the pro 5000 r line is the top of the line stuff that AP makes - more that they believe & are marketing them as a "premium" product for this level of usage they were intended for. I think they know that anyone who is going to spend this level of money on brake kits is likely going to do their due diligence on what they are getting & see where the 5000r falls in APs offering.

The AP calipers that I have seen on Schirmer cars have been in the Pro 5000 R line. Again doesn't mean they haven't run something else - but the pics I have seen have all been from this line.

[dparm]

What calipers are the IMSA cars running? I know they're all AP and Brembo, except for Corvette Racing who just switched to Alcon. I'll have to dig through some old pit walk photos to see...

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by dparm

What calipers are the IMSA cars running? I know they're all AP and Brembo, except for Corvette Racing who just switched to Alcon. I'll have to dig through some old pit walk photos to see...

Not sure - I'll let you know when I make it to IMSA

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by dparm

What calipers are the IMSA cars running? I know they're all AP and Brembo, except for Corvette Racing who just switched to Alcon. I'll have to dig through some old pit walk photos to see...

Pretty sure the M8 runs Brembo's.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by dparm

What calipers are the IMSA cars running? I know they're all AP and Brembo, except for Corvette Racing who just switched to Alcon. I'll have to dig through some old pit walk photos to see...

I was at the race shop looking at two crashed IMSA cars last night while picking up tires.
The McLaren had McLaren branded brake calipers so I'm assuming Brembo.
The Porsche had AP's. The Audi in last week for a visit that they were working on also had AP's IIRC.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Not sure - I'll let you know when I make it to IMSA

You mean when you're ready to toss IMSA $$$$. I'm sure they will have you now. 😂

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by DRLane

You mean when you're ready to toss IMSA $$$$. I'm sure they will have you now. 😂

Its funny how that works, isn't it

[//steve\\]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I personally have experienced pretty consistent pad wear; definitely not saying others haven't had the opposite - just that I have not seen it and hasn't been the case during my usage. Now if you have seen or heard otherwise that is certainly something to consider when selecting a kit to go with - but know that there are many of us out there that have been happy with how are AP setups have performed.

The entry level thing - it is possible one company's "entry level" can be better than another company's "premium". The opposite is certainly true - but just saying that because it is a company's entry level does not make it a poor product. It also does not mean it has to be an inferior product compared to another company's "premium" stuff. I don't think Essex is trying to make it sound like the pro 5000 r line is the top of the line stuff that AP makes - more that they believe & are marketing them as a "premium" product for this level of usage they were intended for. I think they know that anyone who is going to spend this level of money on brake kits is likely going to do their due diligence on what they are getting & see where the 5000r falls in APs offering.

The AP calipers that I have seen on Schirmer cars have been in the Pro 5000 R line. Again doesn't mean they haven't run something else - but the pics I have seen have all been from this line.

From what I can see the Pro 5000 R line stuff is also listed as "entry level motorsport" so just being deemed in the motorsport category vs street IMO makes it more "premium", not necessarily from a looks perspective but performance.

While my car is weekend toy, mostly street car I'd be curious to pull the pads and see what wear looks like inside vs outside. I have the Essex 9668/9449 setup.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Its funny how that works, isn't it

The joys of being a "gentleman driver".

Really enjoyed the build thread and excited to follow how the e92 runs. Have you considered running a factory car (240iR, or new M2C race)?

[LeveragedTiger]

Originally Posted by DRLane

The joys of being a "gentleman driver".

Really enjoyed the build thread and excited to follow how the e92 runs. Have you considered running a factory car (240iR, or new M2C race)?

Pretty sure "gentleman driver" is a fancy phrase for "pay driver".

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

Pretty sure "gentleman driver" is a fancy phrase for "pay driver".

Yes - Can also be the the team owner. Either way you aren't getting paid to drive.

[LeveragedTiger]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I personally have experienced pretty consistent pad wear; definitely not saying others haven't had the opposite - just that I have not seen it and hasn't been the case during my usage. Now if you have seen or heard otherwise that is certainly something to consider when selecting a kit to go with - but know that there are many of us out there that have been happy with how are AP setups have performed.

The entry level thing - it is possible one company's "entry level" can be better than another company's "premium". The opposite is certainly true - but just saying that because it is a company's entry level does not make it a poor product. It also does not mean it has to be an inferior product compared to another company's "premium" stuff. I don't think Essex is trying to make it sound like the pro 5000 r line is the top of the line stuff that AP makes - more that they believe & are marketing them as a "premium" product for this level of usage they were intended for. I think they know that anyone who is going to spend this level of money on brake kits is likely going to do their due diligence on what they are getting & see where the 5000r falls in APs offering.

The AP calipers that I have seen on Schirmer cars have been in the Pro 5000 R line. Again doesn't mean they haven't run something else - but the pics I have seen have all been from this line.

I would agree with this. The Essex kit is marketing a true motorsports product that (intentionally) happens to crossover into the performance street category in terms of pricing. So if you compare the motorsports product to a performance street, it really is no comparison.

However, where said motorsports product fits within the realm of motorsports products is an entirely different discussion.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

I would agree with this. The Essex kit is marketing a true motorsports product that (intentionally) happens to crossover into the performance street category in terms of pricing. So if you compare the motorsports product to a performance street, it really is no comparison.

However, where said motorsports product fits within the realm of motorsports products is an entirely different discussion.

So how does the $4700 AP kit compare to the Brembo GT-S systems which cost about the same?

Brembo has an actual "Race" kit that is $9000 and what you see on the IMSA cars, but also a similarly-priced GT-R kit with some polished calipers that look tits.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by DRLane

The joys of being a "gentleman driver".

Really enjoyed the build thread and excited to follow how the e92 runs. Have you considered running a factory car (240iR, or new M2C race)?

I have been approached about it - that whole gentleman driver thing you reference... but the world turning upside down derailed that a bit. The option is definitely still there again, but after the last few months I have changed my outlook a bit on racing and slowed my roll somewhat. I have immensely enjoyed the build of this car - mainly through the new friends that I have developed due to it. Have some more stuff planned with those friends first now - and want to see them through before moving on from this stuff.

I do see that happening at some point, when & how though I'm not real sure about yet.

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

I would agree with this. The Essex kit is marketing a true motorsports product that (intentionally) happens to crossover into the performance street category in terms of pricing. So if you compare the motorsports product to a performance street, it really is no comparison.

However, where said motorsports product fits within the realm of motorsports products is an entirely different discussion.

I do not think anyone is claiming that the AP Pro 5000 R series is the upper end of motorsports products - or even upper end compared to the rest of AP's line? Does that not make it acceptable for our type of usage? Essex even says it is a club racing, TT, HPDE level kit. I wouldn't expect someone to run it on them on an GTD car, but that is not what the discussion is about.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I do not think anyone is claiming that the AP Pro 5000 R series is the upper end of motorsports products - or even upper end compared to the rest of AP's line? Does that not make it acceptable for our type of usage? Essex even says it is a club racing, TT, HPDE level kit. I wouldn't expect someone to run it on them on an GTD car, but that is not what the discussion is about.

Oh wow this discussion took off. And without me! How sad...

The question is whether the AP Radical Essex kit provides a good price performance ratio.
It is more expensive than the PFC, which is doubtlessly superior although no longer available.
It is the same price as the Alcon-BW kit, but inferior to it

The best thing AP has going for it is really sexy looking calipers and a good marketing campaign

[LeveragedTiger]

Originally Posted by dparm

So how does the $4700 AP kit compare to the Brembo GT-S systems which cost about the same?

Brembo has an actual "Race" kit that is $9000 and what you see on the IMSA cars, but also a similarly-priced GT-R kit with some polished calipers that look tits.

AFAIK, the GT-S is a road caliper, so it has dust boots and caliper seals with lower temperature resistance than the AP. However, it's a one-piece cast monobloc structure with a huge bridge so it won't flex like the AP does.

My personal theory is that the caliper used in the Essex kit just doesn't have enough strength for the E9X platform. It's an aluminum, 2-piece caliper, and since the E9X platform is on the heavier side, the amount of heat generated in the system causes the AP caliper to flex, which leads to the issue of uneven pad wear.

However, if the AP kit is on a race/track build with significant weight savings, the issue might disappear. I recall slicer commenting that he noticed uneven pad wear on his kit, so I don't know at what weight level the issue goes away (or if it does entirely), and his car is pretty light as is.

AP does have calipers available that are forged monobloc with additional support from steel bolts (steel has higher temperature resistance than aluminum), and based on the above, I think that option is probably best suited for the E9X platform.

I have been farting around in spreadsheets calculating piston area and rotor sizes, and think the CP5095 caliper can be paired with the CP6480 caliper on 375F/343R rotors will lead to F/R braking bias that's similar to stock (albeit, a little more rear than factory). Just need to get someone to machine the rotor hats and caliper brackets, and boom, off you go.

Sorry for hijacking your thread OG.

Originally Posted by OG Shark

I do not think anyone is claiming that the AP Pro 5000 R series is the upper end of motorsports products - or even upper end compared to the rest of AP's line? Does that not make it acceptable for our type of usage? Essex even says it is a club racing, TT, HPDE level kit. I wouldn't expect someone to run it on them on an GTD car, but that is not what the discussion is about.

In regards to this, I agree, but Essex uses this language in describing the kit:

While many products are supposedly born in racing, there can be no doubt about the Pro5000R pedigree. These calipers are direct descendants of the current crop of F1 and Sprint Cup calipers. They don't look ordinary, because they're not ordinary. They're the epitome of pure racing design: elegant, sparse, and brutally effective. And while they embody and employ the Radi-CAL design philosophy of the past, they also add some outstanding new features that enhance their practicality, convenience, and appeal. Quite simply, they are the lightest, stiffest, and most technologically advanced brake calipers that have ever been within the average enthusiast's grasp.

I may be reading too much into that language (and they acknowledge that the 5000R is drop-forged, and not monobloc), but I do think they make the 5000R calipers sound more like a pure motorsports product than they actually are. But that's just my opinion.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

AFAIK, the GT-S is a road caliper, so it has dust boots and caliper seals with lower temperature resistance than the AP. However, it's a one-piece cast monobloc structure with a huge bridge so it won't flex like the AP does.

StopTech/Centric would disagree that a one-piece "monobloc" caliper is stiffer. They claim this design is more popular because it is cheaper to mass produce.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia...LOC_8-2018.pdf

The article gets into some basic engineering concepts but the tl;dr is that a two-piece caliper with removable bridge is stiffer than a one-piece with integrated bridge.

[LeveragedTiger]

Originally Posted by dparm

StopTech/Centric would disagree that a one-piece "monobloc" caliper is stiffer. They claim this design is more popular because it is cheaper to mass produce.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia...LOC_8-2018.pdf

The article gets into some basic engineering concepts but the tl;dr is that a two-piece caliper with removable bridge is stiffer than a one-piece with integrated bridge.

The way I read that article is that not all monoblocs are the same (I was reading it earlier, actually, haha). Ie, a poorly made monobloc is not inherently better than a well-designed two-piece caliper made with the right materials.

And, a lot of what make a monobloc strong comes down to window reinforcement and bridge bolts. The GT-S is monobloc, with a big-ass window reinforcement and steel bolts, so I think it probably falls under the well-designed monobloc category.

[dparm]

For sure, the conclusion seems to be along the lines of not assuming one-piece is always better than two-piece.

The Brembo and AP are both plenty rigid for what we're doing.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Oh wow this discussion took off. And without me! How sad...

The question is whether the AP Radical Essex kit provides a good price performance ratio.
It is more expensive than the PFC, which is doubtlessly superior although no longer available.
It is the same price as the Alcon-BW kit, but inferior to it

The best thing AP has going for it is really sexy looking calipers and a good marketing campaign

Man I can only imagine what happens when you get when you get passed by a Porsche sporting AP Racing brakes





And if it also had JRZs oh man guessing you would likely explode!

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

I may be reading too much into that language (and they acknowledge that the 5000R is drop-forged, and not monobloc), but I do think they make the 5000R calipers sound more like a pure motorsports product than they actually are. But that's just my opinion.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Man I can only imagine what happens when you get when you get passed by a Porsche sporting AP Racing brakes





And if it also had JRZs oh man guessing you would likely explode!

I'm sure SYT_Shadow is shocked that Gabe's car hasn't exploded mid lap from running, god forbid, both JRZ AND AP!?

I'm curious about the 'inferiority' of the AP kit, is it just due to the uneven pad wear? What has been your experience with pad wear OG Shark?

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I'm sure SYT_Shadow is shocked that Gabe's car hasn't exploded mid lap from running, god forbid, both JRZ AND AP!?

I'm curious about the 'inferiority' of the AP kit, is it just due to the uneven pad wear? What has been your experience with pad wear OG Shark?

So far so good, have seen pretty consistent pad wear. Braking has always been consistent & fade free. Do think I will be adding the ducts over the winter though like we talked about, see if maybe they will help extend pad life a bit.