My Rod Bearings

[roastbeef]

ok guys and gals, i don't want to throw a bucket of gasoline on the fire, but here we go. (this is going to be long winded)

i bought my 2011 e92 m3 in 10/2013 used. i am the third owner and the car had 12,000 miles on it. the owner i bought it from told me he put about 6k on it, and never tracked it. i don't have any knowledge of the first owner. the car was mechanically stock when i bought it, but had a few cosmetic parts.

i have always liked machines with wheels. although i'm no mechanic, i'm pretty handy, and if i can see it, i can usually work on it. i'm familiar with how the engine's internals work, but i wouldn't be confident in rebuilding a motor or doing any internal work. i'm conscious and cautious when it comes to vehicle maintenance and proper warm-up. i frequently ask a lot of the car on the track, but i don't abuse it. i typically let the car warm up for about a minute and a half before i even drive it, and i don't give it significant load or wide open throttle until the needle is at or close to the middle mark. the car has always had the oem castrol 10w60. oil changes have always been done at 7,500 miles, or every three track days. i think i pushed it out to four track days once. when the car was out of the 4/50 maintenance warranty, i started doing my own oil changes and continued using castrol 10w60. i also started using oil additives- liqui moly mos2, and ceratec. the car started and idled quieter with the additives and i still use and believe in those products. for my last oil change, i tried shell helix ultra racing oil (10w60).

i have tracked the car about 12-15 times. most of those days were with speeddistrict (3.5 hours of track time), one day was a completely open day at auto club where i stayed out for about 30 minutes at a time. for those of you who aren't familiar, auto club on stickies can be trying on car. it has been said our cars on stickies can pull 1.4 G's on the bank at 135ish mph, with the car screaming at at the top of 6th, approaching 8k rpms. at least three of the days were at laguna seca, where i run in two run groups to double my track time. so i don't have a ton of "days" per say, but i have a decent amount of actual seat time at the track.

the car is no longer my daily driver. i typically drive it about once every two weeks. so when i have a cold start, it is a cold start plus some time has passed, which is a little harder, unfortunately. another habit i have, is i don't like to start the car unless i am going to bring it up to full operating temperature. i do this to avoid partially warming up the internals without reaching a temperature to vaporize moisture and accumulate condensation inside of the engine. its just and ocd thing i do, and i'm not interested in starting a debate about it (i could be wrong, but i don't care. lol).

all i have ever done for power mods is a MS drop-in intake, later replaced with an AFE carbon intake. both were oiled filters. i have cleaned and re-oiled the afe filter once, and it wasn't very dirty. i've been cleaning filters for years, and know how to do it properly. i also have an AFE 300 cell catalyst xpipe (resonated) and titanium rear section, not that those will have an effect on this subject. no tunes, pulleys, or other stuff.

my car now has a little over 56,000 miles. i'm planning on doing another norcal trip in a few weeks to run sonoma raceway and then laguna seca the next weekend. this would be about a 900 mile trip packed full of track supplies, four wheels/tires, the wife, and a big german shepherd- plus about 275 track miles.

so i figured it was time to get them done. take a look.


i now entrust malek at mrf with my car. his knowledge, philosophy, expertise, and experience with these cars is what draws me to him. he replaced the bolts with ARP S65B40 Rod Bolt Set, and the bearings with his spec. Clevite (CT-1 Anti-Friction Coated) Extra Clearance Rod Bearings. after seeing this thread http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1073979 with his combo and zero wear at 39,000 miles, this was a no-brainer.

about my old bearings- they were all pretty consistently worn down to the second layer. these are the "newer" 2011 bearings made of tin and aluminum (if i'm not mistaken) and they were mostly down to the second layer. from what i understand, there are tiny valleys running vertically with the length of the oem bearings that allow for oil distribution and lubrication. on my car, they were worn smooth and could only be observed towards the ends of the bearings. i handled my bearings and observed that even though they were smooth, they had a tacky-ness to them... think of dragging your hand over really clean glass. the small ridges are enough to see with your naked eye and feel with your fingernail if you're trying to feel them. i don't know if this has any significance to any of these observations, but obviously this wear isn't normal. i did not have any damage or scoring on my crank.
another observation with debatable significance, is the oil temperature change i noticed with shell helix ultra 10w60 racing oil. this is a full synthetic oil that i used with 300ml of liquimoly mos2. i noticed engine temps in normal driving conditions stay about one to two needle widths above what i had previously observed. i'm very in-tune with the car, and i'm not imagining things. i don't know if the slightly increased temps were from the new oil or increased friction from within the engine. a friend of mine also noticed a slight increase in temps before having his bearings done as well, and his bearings were in bad shape.

the car now has liquimoly 10w60 oil with the mos2 additive. temps seemed to stay on the cooler side, but my drive home from mrf didn't include any freeway driving.

as you can see on the bearings, aside from the increased wear, there are spots like a robin's egg. these are said to be from contaminants in the oil making their way into the bearings and getting smashed. it isn't clear how they got there, but a few ways may be particles getting in through the air filter, or maybe a contaminant making its way into the oil filter area when doing oil changes. i mentioned earlier that i clean my own filter. when i do this, i take the neck off at the plenum to inspect it. i give it a wipe down with a microfiber cloth and there is typically a minute amount of very fine dust lining the neck. this has been consistent in a variety of cars i have tinkered with. the inside of the filter is also pretty clean to the touch, so i am not 100% sure if these aftermarket filters are letting contaminants in, but it is worth the thought and discussion.

so there we have it. the car is ready to keep rocking for many many more miles and track days.

[Bimmer Barney]

Thanks so much for this post. Very informative!

[Helmsman]

Roastbeef, like always great input. Interesting and well written, thanks!

[roastbeef]

Thanks, reflecting back, I sort of forgot to summarize and conclude what I meant to convey with all this- I didn't think my bearings would be in that bad of shape. I don't want to add to the hysteria, but there isn't anything you can do but properly and proactively replace. Just my opinion.

[drivetolive]

Very interesting, thanks for the write up. I also started using liqui moly mos2 recently. How long were you using it for?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Thanks, reflecting back, I sort of forgot to summarize and conclude what I meant to convey with all this- I didn't think my bearings would be in that bad of shape. I don't want to add to the hysteria, but there isn't anything you can do but properly and proactively replace. Just my opinion.

Bought mine 2011 in Dec'13 with 11.5k miles. Third owner. At 35k miles as we speak. Maintaining the car crazy, still slowly start to accept even MY car will need RB replacement. Some point before warranty run out which I calculate will be around 50k miles. Coming close to twins here mate.

[Foggins]

Very useful info, thanks for sharing.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by drivetolive

Very interesting, thanks for the write up. I also started using liqui moly mos2 recently. How long were you using it for?

Probably the last three oil changes... about 10-12,000 miles ago.

[last1left]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Probably the last three oil changes... about 10-12,000 miles ago.

So you think it's the nature of these cars to ware in this area regardless of upkeep? Thanks for sharing

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by last1left

So you think it's the nature of these cars to ware in this area regardless of upkeep? Thanks for sharing

It looks that way, unfortunately. Of course, this is speculation and opinion. I think the solid evidence is there though.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

It looks that way, unfortunately. Of course, this is speculation and opinion. I think the solid evidence is there though.

Good job man by replacing your bearings

The only thing I don't like is that you run now with liquimoly oil .
I heard it often on here that people got loud ticking noises with liquimoly .

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Good job man by replacing your bearings

The only thing I don't like is that you run now with liquimoly oil .
I heard it often on here that people got loud ticking noises with liquimoly .

No new noises here. Were those people running liqui moly oil using 10/60? There are a ton of people screwing around with lighter weight oil and I'm not going to do that.

[GeorgeA]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Good job man by replacing your bearings

The only thing I don't like is that you run now with liquimoly oil .
I heard it often on here that people got loud ticking noises with liquimoly .

Yes, liquimoly runs a bit thicker than the other 10/60 oils. Shell OEM is thinner, better for bearings from my understanding.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

No new noises here. Were those people running liqui moly oil using 10/60? There are a ton of people screwing around with lighter weight oil and I'm not going to do that.

Yes they were running with Liqui Moly 10W60 .
I agree . A lighter weight oil is no good for a S65/85 .
I received also several (PM) videos with the loud ticking noises , and I recommended to switch the oil back to Castrol 10W60 ...
And the ticking noise was gone . The new M Twin-Power-Turbo 10W60 from BMW is good as well .
Currently I'm running with the new oil from BMW and it runs really smooth + it warms up my S65 a little faster .


Here is one of threads about Liqui Moly and S65 ticking noises => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404625

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yes they were running with Liqui Moly 10W60 .
I agree . A lighter weight oil is no good for a S65/85 .
I received also several (PM) videos with the loud ticking noises , and I recommended to switch the oil back to Castrol 10W60 ...
And the ticking noise was gone . The new M Twin-Power-Turbo 10W60 from BMW is good as well .
Currently I'm running with the new oil from BMW and it runs really smooth + it warms up my S65 a little faster .


Here is one of threads about Liqui Moly and S65 ticking noises => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404625

Interesting. He states he still heard it a little bit of the noise after he switched back, just not as much.
There are several other systems that rely on oil consistency.... maybe sheer strength has something to do with it? I'm not going to pretend to know what exactly happens with same weight oils having different sheer strengths/etc or compositions, just mentioning something I've heard of.

[last1left]

I've never had this click clack sound from either of my M3's an 08 and now a 2012 always used Castrol 10/60 after warm up my cars have been super quiet.

[dc5s]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Interesting. He states he still heard it a little bit of the noise after he switched back, just not as much.
There are several other systems that rely on oil consistency.... maybe sheer strength has something to do with it? I'm not going to pretend to know what exactly happens with same weight oils having different sheer strengths/etc or compositions, just mentioning something I've heard of.

I will update my thread.

After 3000km on the BMW oil, the noise went away. During the noise period, if I drove at high rpms for a few minutes (highway speeds in 3rd gear) or did a number of 2nd gear pulls, the noise was gone, but would return once the engine cooled down.

Occasionally I might hear it a little bit but it's very very faint and if I wasn't listening for it I'd never hear it.

I really think it's a lifter noise.

[kyrix1st]

Did you send oils out for BSA? Curious to see how Ceratec does long term with BMW TT 10w60.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Did you send oils out for BSA? Curious to see how Ceratec does long term with BMW TT 10w60.

no. i'm not worried about it at this point.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

no. i'm not worried about it at this point.

Interesting how it stays warmer with shell 10w60..LM 10w60 is known for staying cool as it takes more heat to build up being the thicker oil.

I personally have not observed much oil temp above 210F needle on my DCT unless I floor it for a few minutes (low mileage, 16k mls) using BMW TT 10w60 (isn't this a rebranded shell ultra?) + MoS2/Ceratec so I will continue to use this oil. Considering doing RBs around 30K or so, so I hope this holds up.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Interesting how it stays warmer with shell 10w60..LM 10w60 is known for staying cool as it takes more heat to build up being the thicker oil.

I personally have not observed much oil temp above 210F needle on my DCT unless I floor it for a few minutes (low mileage, 16k mls) using BMW TT 10w60 (isn't this a rebranded shell ultra?) + MoS2/Ceratec so I will continue to use this oil. Considering doing RBs around 30K or so, so I hope this holds up.

LM is the only oil that warms up noticeably quicker and cools of quicker than Castrol and BMW-Shell oils during regular driving and on track. My rod bearings also looked very similar to what roastbeef posted above.

All we can conclude is that 2011 was the year for excellent vintage S65s.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Interesting how it stays warmer with shell 10w60..LM 10w60 is known for staying cool as it takes more heat to build up being the thicker oil.

I personally have not observed much oil temp above 210F needle on my DCT unless I floor it for a few minutes (low mileage, 16k mls) using BMW TT 10w60 (isn't this a rebranded shell ultra?) + MoS2/Ceratec so I will continue to use this oil. Considering doing RBs around 30K or so, so I hope this holds up.

i used to put more thought into oil of the same weight that tend to run cooler or warmer. ambient conditions, driving habits, and car modifications likely play a bigger role than oil in overall temperature.
my car is pretty cold blooded- my undertray is in great condition and well sealed, and i run three hood vents.