Track forum general chit chat.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by dparm

Rollover is one of the least likely scenarios, IMO. I have been doing track days for over a decade and have seen ONE rollover that happened exactly as the videos above show -- car went off sideways and the wheels dug in. The majority of incidents are people bumping a tire wall or whatever, and even that's pretty rare.

I've seen 4 rollovers during my time. One had the car directly to my right upside down and above me in Turn 2 at big Willow (during a race so caged car). That was fun. One guy in an E36M3 (no cage) got his head pinned in between the a-pillar and the door at Buttonwillow. Another rolled his buddy's E28M5 (no cage) at BW (my friend was instructing and told him not to rush up on people, but he did anyway and lifted mid turn...ooops). One outside turn 8 at big Willow when wheel studs broke and he lost steering and went for Mr. Toad's wild ride (caged car).

Originally Posted by dparm

[laughs in Texas]

>>>>The Texas property tax man has entered the chat<<<<

Didn't mean to come back posting crap at you @dparm! Your posts caught my eye as I read through 20 pages though.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by tsk94

This.

I'd gladly pay a bit more for a track day to run with people who know how to drive and potentially fewer cars, versus a cheaper day with a bunch of yahoos, newbies and over crowded track time. The later is often were you see the incidents happening.

absolutely, most of my track days are open session also but i pay a premium for that benefit.

but the down side is most of the track days are on Friday, when its a cheaper premium to rent the track.

the ones i pay for on Saturdays tack on about an extra $150-200 dollars.

usually 30-40 car limited. one of the event host i use don't even allow miatas to attend lmao.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

absolutely, most of my track days are open session also but i pay a premium for that benefit.

but the down side is most of the track days are on Friday, when its a cheaper premium to rent the track.

the ones i pay for on Saturdays tack on about an extra $150-200 dollars.

usually 30-40 car limited. one of the event host i use don't even allow miatas to attend lmao.

Oh man that would be sweet.
I just "graduated" to intermediate and so far it's been the opposite of what I expected.

My first time on track, in the beginner group, there were a total of 2 spins, and that was in the wet.
The next two times on track, beginner group, no off tracks, or at least nothing bad enough to wave a yellow flag about.

Track day number 4, intermediate group, no bad offs, but there was a private group where I watched 5 cars go off in turn 1 at Thunderhill, in one session.
I was all "I can't watch this shit show anymore, going back to my pit."
Just not what I wanted to watch being so new.

Track day number 5, intermediate group, WAY too many cars to start with, and then the coaches were jumping in as well, and SO many people getting black flagged and one scary off right in front of me.

Track day number 6 (1st time at Laguna), intermediate group, 1 spin right in front of me in turn 5 (served him right for not pointing me by), a big off into the corkscrew (just went straight instead of left), another big off exiting 3.
Drove through another cloud of dust exiting 4.

So I realized there is there is another skill I need to develop, making space for myself.

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

Oh man that would be sweet.
I just "graduated" to intermediate and so far it's been the opposite of what I expected.

My first time on track, in the beginner group, there were a total of 2 spins, and that was in the wet.
The next two times on track, beginner group, no off tracks, or at least nothing bad enough to wave a yellow flag about.

Track day number 4, intermediate group, no bad offs, but there was a private group where I watched 5 cars go off in turn 1 at Thunderhill, in one session.
I was all "I can't watch this shit show anymore, going back to my pit."
Just not what I wanted to watch being so new.

Track day number 5, intermediate group, WAY to many cars to start with, and then the coaches were jumping in as well, and SO many people getting black flagged and one scary off right in front of me.

Track day number 6 (1st time at Laguna), intermediate group, 1 spin right in front of me in turn 5 (served him right for not pointing me by), a big off into the corkscrew (just went straight instead of left), another big off exiting 3.
Drove through another cloud of dust exiting 4.

So I realized there is there is another skill I need to develop, making space for myself.

Okay, I feel this is the wrong idea to have. You really don't know your limits until you fail. I spun twice at my last intermediate group track day (one spin being quite scary), but does that mean I suck/should get moved back down? Not at all. Spinning isn't bad. F1 drivers crash more cars in a season than any other form of motorsport - okay maybe not, but you get my point. If Lewis Hamilton can spin and have an off, so can I, and the best part is that we both learn from it. Some lessons are harder than others (i.e.: flipping a car).

[sc_tr0jan_m3]

Agreed. Spinning isn't inherently a bad thing… it helps you understand the limit, and it's also important to learn what it feels like so you can play more at the edge.

Yeah it'll eat tires, kick up dirt on the track, but it should be treated as a learning experience.

[Davisca455]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Okay, I feel this is the wrong idea to have. You really don't know your limits until you fail. I spun twice at my last intermediate group track day (one spin being quite scary), but does that mean I suck/should get moved back down? Not at all. Spinning isn't bad. F1 drivers crash more cars in a season than any other form of motorsport - okay maybe not, but you get my point. If Lewis Hamilton can spin and have an off, so can I, and the best part is that we both learn from it. Some lessons are harder than others (i.e.: flipping a car).

Sorry, not saying spins should never happen.
The observation I was making was that in HPDEs, I was expecting fewer cars to be leaving track as I progressed, but that isn't what I have been experiencing so far.
I would assume that none of us wants to get rear ended as we enter the corkscrew because the guy behind is overcooking his skill level?

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by Davisca455

Oh man that would be sweet.
I just "graduated" to intermediate and so far it's been the opposite of what I expected.

My first time on track, in the beginner group, there were a total of 2 spins, and that was in the wet.
The next two times on track, beginner group, no off tracks, or at least nothing bad enough to wave a yellow flag about.

Track day number 4, intermediate group, no bad offs, but there was a private group where I watched 5 cars go off in turn 1 at Thunderhill, in one session.
I was all "I can't watch this shit show anymore, going back to my pit."
Just not what I wanted to watch being so new.

Track day number 5, intermediate group, WAY to many cars to start with, and then the coaches were jumping in as well, and SO many people getting black flagged and one scary off right in front of me.

Track day number 6 (1st time at Laguna), intermediate group, 1 spin right in front of me in turn 5 (served him right for not pointing me by), a big off into the corkscrew (just went straight instead of left), another big off exiting 3.
Drove through another cloud of dust exiting 4.

So I realized there is there is another skill I need to develop, making space for myself.

absolutely, and to be honest most OPEN session events require X amount of hours on track to attend. how do they verify? well they just watch you on track lol.

so basically you have to be somewhat expert level ish as it is all open passing no matter where at on track.

but spinning out isn't a bad thing, generally speaking a person willing to push the limit or try to correct a mistake is something worth spinning out for even though it's dangerous on track but hey it's part of the nature. you don't learn or driver faster by making safe decisions there's a small reckless window. like braking later than you normally would or being on throttle sooner etc.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by b4hand

Okay, I feel this is the wrong idea to have. You really don't know your limits until you fail. I spun twice at my last intermediate group track day (one spin being quite scary), but does that mean I suck/should get moved back down? Not at all. Spinning isn't bad. F1 drivers crash more cars in a season than any other form of motorsport - okay maybe not, but you get my point. If Lewis Hamilton can spin and have an off, so can I, and the best part is that we both learn from it. Some lessons are harder than others (i.e.: flipping a car).

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you for an alternate view point. There are two approaches for finding the limit; from above or from below.

For some people, once they're moved to intermediate, they start pushing beyond their abilities and are finding the limit from above, which means frequent spins. Finding the limit from below can be more time consuming, but it is definitely safer in an HPDE environment. After all, safety should be the priority during any event.

In the first video below is an example of finding the limit from below it. The track is Brainerd International Raceway, turn 2. It looks benign but it's flat (as in camber) with close barriers on the inside along with a rough dirt area where your wheels can easily dig in. The layout is the Competition course layout which means speeds before the braking point can be 120 to 150 depending on the car.

My normal entry speed is 115 with the G80 along with a light throttle application so it slows down to about 105 until the exit where I apply full throttle. Each lap I gradually carried more speed into the corner and was able to recognize that when I came up to about 122 MPH or so, it was a bit too much. I was able to lightly apply the brake and unroll the steering wheel to get on the marbles. If I tried to make it through the corner, I would have spun or understeered off track and had a very bad time even without hitting a barrier.

Because I was discovering the limit from below, gradually increasing the entry speed from 115 MPH, I was able to discover that I was beyond what I could do with the car and back off slowly. It makes for a boring video. If I went from an entry speed of 115 MPH to 122 MPH right away, I might not have been able to recognize the early signs that I'm not going to make the corner and not be able to avoid the off-track event. That's the second video.

Comparisons to F1 are great and all, but those are some of the best drivers in the world and Mazepin on track with amazing reaction times and vision where they can avoid a spun car easily. I'm not so confident with the average person at an HPDE and their abilities to avoid a spun car.

My turn 2 example:

Finding the limit from above (warm up lap) turn 2 example - about 56 seconds in:

[tsk94]

Finding the limit absolutely does NOT constitute frequent spins. Ximian is 100% right. The whole notion of if you aren't spinning out you aren't trying hard enough or you aren't reaching the limit is complete bs.

If someone is pushing/exploring their limits and spinning out frequently or even semi frequently in an HPDE that's unacceptable, especially if you're around other cars. Any respectable organization or run group understands this and they usually have strict rules regarding this. You spin out more than 2 times a day and you're done. If it happens again the next day, then it's time to find a new group to run with. Either take it to a competitive setting, like time attack or reevaluate how you approach an open track lapping day.

[chocstraw]

From my limited experience, finding a limit / approaching the limit from beneath is to target consistency rather than a fastest lap time. crashing or spinning out is more embarrassing than being slow imo.

If you can consistently hit a good time rather than hit one great lap, you'll be a better driver for it.

smooth driving is fast driving.

[DRLane]

I've done the whole "ya got to be willing to spin to get faster" and nearly totaled my car against a wall. It wasn't a recipe for getting faster, building awareness, or enhanced car control. Just a fast track to financially cycling out of Motorsports.

Alternatively, recognizing there is no rush to being "fast" and progressively tackling slow corners and then fast corners yielded much speedier results. It also better accommodates 1,000s of miles of driving in circles.

Sadly, nothing replaces seat time regardless of your willingness to risk it…

[omgzirra_exe]

ya gotta be crazy to be fast jk jk

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Finding the limit absolutely does NOT constitute frequent spins. Ximian is 100% right. The whole notion of if you aren't spinning out you aren't trying hard enough or you aren't reaching the limit is complete bs.

If someone is pushing/exploring their limits and spinning out frequently or even semi frequently in an HPDE that's unacceptable, especially if you're around other cars. Any respectable organization or run group understands this and they usually have strict rules regarding this. You spin out more than 2 times a day and you're done. If it happens again the next day, then it's time to find a new group to run with. Either take it to a competitive setting, like time attack or reevaluate how you approach an open track lapping day.

Agreed. You can exceed the limit and not spin. It’s called car control.

[kyippee]

Easy one in my mind…
Based on this: http://racetrackdriving.com/concepts/tenths-scale/

Try to be consistent of course, but when pushing, try to make your mistakes 10.5/10ths mistakes, not 11/10ths mistakes.

A 10.5 is usually correctable. A 11/10ths mistake is easily a bruised ego and damaged car.

[fsmtnbiker]

This is why autocross is so important. You can spin the car, drive at 11/10ths, and figure out car control in an environment that doesn't result in massive repair bills.

bUt sEAt tImE

Stupidest argument there is. The only people that make the argument that track days are better than autocross for learning the basics of car control are people that were terrible at autocross and instead of learning, decided to just go somewhere they felt better about themselves.

You will always learn slower on a track because you can't approach the limits as much or as often on track. This is also how people end up driving on track for years with MDM/TC on. You should not be afraid of approaching the limits of your car. If you are, find a safe environment and start learning.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by fsmtnbiker

This is why autocross is so important. You can spin the car, drive at 11/10ths, and figure out car control in an environment that doesn't result in massive repair bills.

bUt sEAt tImE

Stupidest argument there is. The only people that make the argument that track days are better than autocross for learning the basics of car control are people that were terrible at autocross and instead of learning, decided to just go somewhere they felt better about themselves.

You will always learn slower on a track because you can't approach the limits as much or as often on track. This is also how people end up driving on track for years with MDM/TC on. You should not be afraid of approaching the limits of your car. If you are, find a safe environment and start learning.

Couldn't have said it better. Amen

Seriously guys, go find the biggest autocross site near to you and drive that course MDM off 11/10ths and spin a bunch of times and learn. It's incredibly good skill to have and incredibly low risk.

[leftfootbr8king]

It's called "spin shaming" and now I feel offended.

[dparm]

I don't agree with just driving faster and faster until the car spins and then declaring that you found the limit.

The skill to hone is feeling the car approaching the limit and managing the traction to keep it right at the 99-101% mark. In other words, you're just getting a very small amount of sliding and quickly catching it to bring the car under control again. Watch some fast drivers and you'll see them making lots of little tiny catches (their hands will be very active) throughout most of the corners.

I'm also torn on autocross because many of those courses include very fast weight transfers (sharp turns), which isn't as common driving at speed on track.

[b4hand]

I am not talking about spinning multiple times a session etc, but it shouldn't be viewed as bad/lack of skill. That is my point. And if you can find the limit without an incident, that is obviously recommended, but IMO it still shouldn't been seen as a bad thing if one guy spins once, or twice (like me).

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by dparm

I'm also torn on autocross because many of those courses include very fast weight transfers (sharp turns), which isn't as common driving at speed on track.

MSR Houston has a whole section of the track they call the 'autocross section' lol

[Richbot]

A spin means you're out of control. Out of control is not good. Under control but over the limit, is good. Let's make sure we assign goodness to the right parts of a spin, the part where, for a brief moment, you were still in control but over the limit. The part after that, when you lost control, is NOT GOOD. A spin is because one or more of the following happened.

1) Your brain/hand/eyes are just too slow to know what's going on and react to it in time and/or you aren't thinking ahead because your brain is completely saturated with what's happening NOW.
2) You did something stupid with the controls, almost always because 1)
3) Your car broke
4) There was fluid down
5) You had to avoid an incident

Yes "car control skills" are a learned muscle memory, but get the basics of those down and once you overclock your brain and you'll probably never loop it again. Sim racing is great for this. Focusing the mind so that the observe-decide-react loop happens faster and more reliably is important muscle to exercise, it doesn't just happen by accident. Most people go through their months between sessions on track without ever having to focus and make split-millisecond reactions for 20 minutes. Sharpen your tools and #1 will never, ever happen, and #2 will be fixable most of the time because #1 won't let you do #2 much. #3 might be tougher to avoid entirely but having #1 covered can catch a lot of oh-crap broken stuff.

Fluids and avoiding an incident are tough ones. But if you have #1 handled, you have a lot better chance of making it through pointed the right way.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by fsmtnbiker

This is why autocross is so important. You can spin the car, drive at 11/10ths, and figure out car control in an environment that doesn't result in massive repair bills.

bUt sEAt tImE

Stupidest argument there is. The only people that make the argument that track days are better than autocross for learning the basics of car control are people that were terrible at autocross and instead of learning, decided to just go somewhere they felt better about themselves.

You will always learn slower on a track because you can't approach the limits as much or as often on track. This is also how people end up driving on track for years with MDM/TC on. You should not be afraid of approaching the limits of your car. If you are, find a safe environment and start learning.

Word. Although, spinning the car, I would argue, doesn't teach you a damn thing most of the time other than "I guess I went too fast there". It's the lack of fear of consequences that lets you explore the limits. The limits are always there to explore if you want to no matter where you're exploring them. I also agree that letting the car help you doesn't really help you make the next step, especially on the best systems, driving on track with the stability control engaged is the pilot skill development equivalent of riding in seat 12A on a 737...eventually you will be asked to land the plane in a wicked crosswind with no gas left and if the only source of your competence is seat time...

Personally I like 20mph school zones during dismissal, so I can get on youtube more often

But, subject to those quibbles, I think autocross is absolutely foundational and until you've gotten reasonably competent at it, showing you have the brain clockspeed to really navigate a complex car handling situation, you shouldn't be on a racetrack, end of tweet. Corner workers are precious. But I'm a safety extremist sometimes.

Also, on the "talent" front - I have watched absolutely miserably bad drivers go on to win national championships. This is mostly amateur motorsports. Anybody can do it, with enough give-a-shit