Suspension upgrade

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Ok, interesting. I've never been to the Ridge with this car, so I don't can't compare how hard my local track vs. yours is on brakes. The only comparison I have is with my E36 at both Race City and then my now local track, Castrol Raceway. After Race City shut down, I ran the car identically to how it was at Race City at Castrol. Castrol saw approximately 2-3x the wear on brakes compared to Race City. Thus me deeming my track 'hard on brakes'. Of course this is all relative, so take that with a grain of salt. My current local track is a slow, tight and technical. For faster cars, there are frequent hard braking zones followed by short straights (also slow straights) for limited cooling.

Before the E92 was built, we ran a 135i for a season and a half. Running PFC08's all around, before ducting they would last ~3 days ish. After adding ducting the pad life extended 2-3x. Given that, if you were to do the same that would make a huge difference. My car will still be a bit easier on front pads than yours. I'm running a lower torque front pad and have less weight transfer as my front spring rate is 30% higher then yours. My car, with driver is also 150lbs lighter. And of course, good brake ducting.. I hope that helps - feel free to ask any other questions.

Maybe I'll give ducting a try before springing for a luxury bbk. 2-3x longer life is huge.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Maybe I'll give ducting a try before springing for a luxury bbk. 2-3x longer life is huge.

I would strongly suggest doing so

[divadp17]

Wow thank you guys for providing your input it really helps me prioritize on what I should upgrade and mod.

I recently went to Laguna Seca to understand the baseline for my car and boy did I learn a lot. The only mod I had was steel brake lines running Motul600 and they ended up boiling which caused me to finish the remaining session with a sponge like brake.

So I'm glad we're on the brake topics because during this session I realized how critical brakes are for the track and on the e9X platform.

For my next run instead of going with the BBK upgrade I will try the PFC pads and install air ducts for the brake.

I was also considering switching over to Castrol SRF brake fluid as I’ve read that it won’t make your brakes feel like a sponge even after it boils?

Also the body roll... I'm really looking forward to installing the KW Clubsports and running wider tires(preferably square setup). I also ordered rear solid subframe bushings.

I've looked into Hotchki's adjustable sway bar, will these parts make a noticeable difference regards to body roll and handling?

[kyippee]

I have boiled Castrol SRF and not noticed pedal differences....

I would say JRZ or MCS instead of the KW CS stuff. Run -3.5 front camber and -2.0 rear camber for a good start with hard R-comps such as NT01.

BBK - I'd go straight to Stoptech for front and rear... or just start with front only.

[Bartledoo]

SRF is magic. Glad it's back in stock.

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

I have boiled Castrol SRF and not noticed pedal differences....

I would say JRZ or MCS instead of the KW CS stuff. Run -3.5 front camber and -2.0 rear camber for a good start with hard R-comps such as NT01.

BBK - I'd go straight to Stoptech for front and rear... or just start with front only.

IMO, the value the KW CS provide is hard to beat. Reasonable spring rates, wide range of damping, and camber plates straight out of the box. Put a shorter front spring on and you can fit all the tire you want. For the cost difference, I think most people would be hard pressed to know the difference between MCS/KW/JRZ from behind the wheel.

[kyippee]

It's ~30% more when I compare retail list rates for JRZ 2-way with GC race camber plates and 500/800 hyperco springs vs. KW CS. Not a huge difference in my mind... but I get what you mean.

[Chris_PDX]

Everyone is discussing the various upgrade options that the OP has laid out, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting to just stick with the car as is to start with.

The OP didn't mention if he was new to tracking, but the car was being setup as a dedicated track / autoX toy.

I'd suggest, which is what I always suggest to my students that I coach, is to drive the car with the bare minimum upgrades first. And bare minimum is usually safety related (i.e. better brakes, decent tires, cooling / reliability items, etc.). Learning to drive a stock-ish car fast is better for you long-term than going all out on the mods.

As we say, Driver Mod is the best Mod.

[kyippee]

^ For sure! I assumed they have experience and a decent baseline to work with. If not, all of the above makes sense

[divadp17]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Everyone is discussing the various upgrade options that the OP has laid out, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting to just stick with the car as is to start with.

The OP didn't mention if he was new to tracking, but the car was being setup as a dedicated track / autoX toy.

I'd suggest, which is what I always suggest to my students that I coach, is to drive the car with the bare minimum upgrades first. And bare minimum is usually safety related (i.e. better brakes, decent tires, cooling / reliability items, etc.). Learning to drive a stock-ish car fast is better for you long-term than going all out on the mods.

As we say, Driver Mod is the best Mod.

Yes I strongly agree that improving my driving skills should be the first priority before modding the car. For that reason I didn't install any of the mods except for adding Recaro SPG and steel brake lines. This is the first time I took this car to a track and learned a lot about the cars behavior. After watching videos of my own driving I noticed many areas I could improve on but most importantly was the braking zones and techniques. As I started figuring out the braking zones combined with confidence the brakes faded and the brake fluid eventually boiled. Many people at the track event and on the forums highly recommended BBK but I think if I brake more efficiently it should reduce my chances of brake fade. Before my next track day I will install brake ducts and use Castrol SRF brake fluid to see if that helps with overheating. Also I am currently running OEM brake pads which seemed to brake well but would it better to upgrade to PFC08 or keep running stock pads?

[divadp17]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

^ For sure! I assumed they have experience and a decent baseline to work with. If not, all of the above makes sense

Yes I took car control classes and couple of driving lessons at Laguna Seca. Now I'm ready to take the training wheels off

[divadp17]

Originally Posted by M43S7RO

I'd skip Powerflex subframe bushings and go straight for the solid. No added nvh from them from my experience and they'll never have to be serviced again.

Have a look at the hotchkis swaybar set as well, more adjustability vs the h&r.

Thanks I've decided go with Turner's solid rear subframe bushings.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by krapdivad

Yes I strongly agree that improving my driving skills should be the first priority before modding the car. For that reason I didn't install any of the mods except for adding Recaro SPG and steel brake lines. This is the first time I took this car to a track and learned a lot about the cars behavior. After watching videos of my own driving I noticed many areas I could improve on but most importantly was the braking zones and techniques. As I started figuring out the braking zones combined with confidence the brakes faded and the brake fluid eventually boiled. Many people at the track event and on the forums highly recommended BBK but I think if I brake more efficiently it should reduce my chances of brake fade. Before my next track day I will install brake ducts and use Castrol SRF brake fluid to see if that helps with overheating. Also I am currently running OEM brake pads which seemed to brake well but would it better to upgrade to PFC08 or keep running stock pads?

The brake question depends on a lot of variables, but generally speaking, OEM pads suck. If I drive my stock-weight, stock-power E92 M3 at 8/10ths, I will destroy or otherwise set on fire OEM pads in 15 minutes at my local track. Stock brakes are designed to give you one, maybe two hard emergency stops when the the brakes are fairly cold (i.e. emergency stop on the street). They aren't designed to absorb the heat that you generate on the track.

After market pads will be a step up, but you can still overheat and crack the rotors. Brake cooling can help with stock brakes, but doesn't really matter for 20 minute HPDE sessions once you get a BBK.

If you are driving at 6/10ths max, or less, then an upgraded pad (such as the PFC08 or something from Cobalt (I use Cobalt)) + Stainless lines + higher spec fluid should suffice. As you get quicker, your pads will wear faster, and you'll want to check them after every session. Also, pads (and rotors) wear quicker as they get worn. It might take you 5 days to wear a brake pad from 100% -> 50%, but only 2 days to go 50% -> 1%. As the mass wears off, it can absorb less heat, which is the enemy in a brake system.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by krapdivad

Yes I strongly agree that improving my driving skills should be the first priority before modding the car. For that reason I didn't install any of the mods except for adding Recaro SPG and steel brake lines. This is the first time I took this car to a track and learned a lot about the cars behavior. After watching videos of my own driving I noticed many areas I could improve on but most importantly was the braking zones and techniques. As I started figuring out the braking zones combined with confidence the brakes faded and the brake fluid eventually boiled. Many people at the track event and on the forums highly recommended BBK but I think if I brake more efficiently it should reduce my chances of brake fade. Before my next track day I will install brake ducts and use Castrol SRF brake fluid to see if that helps with overheating. Also I am currently running OEM brake pads which seemed to brake well but would it better to upgrade to PFC08 or keep running stock pads?

You're still relatively new at all this, just do pads/fluid and continue to run the stock brake setup. BBK is on my want list as well but probably the LAST thing I will do. If you have an unlimited budget then by all means build out the car fully if you're able, but you'll be over 10k spent quickly. The stock setup hasn't given me much trouble yet and the Cobalt Friction pads are really the way to go.
Same goes for the suspension, the KW's are the best bang for the buck and well documented with a quick search on what settings to run them at etc. Second choice in my book would be the MCS for a track/autox car.

Also, if you're wanting to autox consider the classing of your local events (SCCA? BMW CCA? etc.) some of the mods you may want may put your car in a class where its not competitive.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Everyone is discussing the various upgrade options that the OP has laid out, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting to just stick with the car as is to start with.

The OP didn't mention if he was new to tracking, but the car was being setup as a dedicated track / autoX toy.

I'd suggest, which is what I always suggest to my students that I coach, is to drive the car with the bare minimum upgrades first. And bare minimum is usually safety related (i.e. better brakes, decent tires, cooling / reliability items, etc.). Learning to drive a stock-ish car fast is better for you long-term than going all out on the mods.

As we say, Driver Mod is the best Mod.

+1... minimal upgrades first. In fact, the longer you can repress yourself from modding the faster you'll end up being

Regarding suspension, I would prefer a MCS 1 way vs the KW CS and the cost must be pretty similar.

It is also very clear that there are very fast people running KW CS, in fact there are very fast people driving with stock suspension with just camber plates.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

+1... minimal upgrades first. In fact, the longer you can repress yourself from modding the faster you'll end up being

Regarding suspension, I would prefer a MCS 1 way vs the KW CS and the cost must be pretty similar.

It is also very clear that there are very fast people running KW CS, in fact there are very fast people driving with stock suspension with just camber plates.

My E46 M3 track car has single adjustable Konis. I regularly pass people with MCS 2 or 3WR. It's all about driver mods until you physically reach the limit of the car, which is very hard to do for most people (myself included... I've got another 1.5 seconds in mine probably).

[gmx]

Get camber plates and an alignment unless you want to start paying for a set of tyres every time.
For BMWs/MacPherson strut cars: pads/fluid/camber plates/decent tyre at minimum. Wasting your time and money not learning much if at all without those.
BBK isn't going to teach you bad technique or make you faster directly. If you have the money, just do it but do your research (replacement discs, pad availability and cost, caliper construction etc). Saves you the hassle of wearing cheese OEM rotors, maintaining sliding pins, the nitrile rubber on the OEM calipers, tearing/crumbling piston dust boots etc. Pad changes will be much faster as well on a monobloc vs sliding.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Since he's got Clubsports already, they include camber plates so that's taken care of.

Before upgrading to a BBK on all 4 corners, which would cost 7-10k, I'd recommend running 'upgraded' stock brakes. Stainless steel lines, good fluid (ST 660, Endless, etc.), race pads, front brake ducts and brass guides as an optional extra. For 99.9% of people this setup will hold up perfectly fine to hard track use. If it doesn't, you're overslowing the car lol.

Not at laguna - I bought bbk because of laguna horror stories lol

I only have stoptech trophies up front. With a setup like yours I was still pretty quick, just not consistently because I would have to do cool down laps in between and pedal feel was changing.

[divadp17]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have the Hotchkis front bar for sale.

PM me if its still available

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Not at laguna - I bought bbk because of laguna horror stories lol

I only have stoptech trophies up front. With a setup like yours I was still pretty quick, just not consistently because I would have to do cool down laps in between and pedal feel was changing.

Obviously I can't speak for all tracks, at my local track this setup works well. But it's a slow track with short braking zones - although lots of braking zones. And, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, my car isn't that comparable to most street cars that are being tracked: it's lighter, fully caged so much stiffer chassis, stiffer spring rates, different torque pads front and rear (higher in the rear) and likely more aero.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Obviously I can't speak for all tracks, at my local track this setup works well. But it's a slow track with short braking zones - although lots of braking zones. And, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, my car isn't that comparable to most street cars that are being tracked: it's lighter, fully caged so much stiffer chassis, stiffer spring rates, different torque pads front and rear (higher in the rear) and likely more aero.

Mine too. No carpet, bar, aero on and off, running on bfg R1S and pirelli slicks. But if you squint your eyes, since it's a sedan, it's still a van of car on track

Still had to get them laguna since there are plenty of straights for high speed braking. Prob needed them for autoclub speedway too since your coming into turns at 120-135mph down to 40mph ish 90* turns.

With even a basic bbk set up like mine, didn't ever have to worry either.

[M3 Number 86]

Damn app didn't load pics.