Track forum general chit chat.

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by Ximian

While DSC starts limiting you earlier than MDM would, it's better to work on smoothness than going straight to MDM or DSC off. The DSC light on the dash is a more consistent indicator (see deterministic algorithms from an earlier posts) where you can be smoother than any instructor would be. While your instructor is probably right that you can safely hammer it, the car thinks there is a significant enough risk involved so you should figure out why that is first.

Feel free to let your instructor know if there is something you do not want to do, such as if you'd rather work on on smoothness and go slower out of corner without DSC kicking in.

Wow shots fired bro. Me > DSC.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Wow shots fired bro. Me > DSC.

If it's unclear, I meant that as consistency in an instructor giving you feedback compared to the DSC light giving you feedback. If you do everything exactly the same, the light will come on each time. That's not necessarily true for one or more instructors and observer bias.

Progressing beyond the novice level where you use MDM or have DSC off, you should certainly be able to apply the throttle smoothly and safely under the conditions where DSC would normally kick in.

[MaximusB]

Originally Posted by Ximian

While DSC starts limiting you earlier than MDM would, it's better to work on smoothness than going straight to MDM or DSC off. The DSC light on the dash is a more consistent indicator (see deterministic algorithms from an earlier posts) where you can be smoother than any instructor would be. While your instructor is probably right that you can safely hammer it, the car thinks there is a significant enough risk involved so you should figure out why that is first.

Feel free to let your instructor know if there is something you do not want to do, such as if you'd rather work on on smoothness and go slower out of corner without DSC kicking in.

Thanks! That's more or less what I am thinking. Focus more on smoothness and be more consistent on entry and exit, than just on speed and time. It is just a little deflating when having to give point-by to S2K, FRS..etc and only to catch up on the straight away or fast corners.

[dparm]

It's a catch-22. You want to learn the car's limits, but sometimes finding the limits can lead to a bad situation like ending up in a barrier. I understand both sides of the argument.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by MaximusB

What are everyone's thought/advice for newbie driver and MDM?

I just did my first HPDE this past weekend, had a blast. I had the traction control on the whole day as it was my first time on this particular track. All my previous experience were autocross or high performance driving clinic at an air field.

The issue I had with traction control on was it intervened when I tried to power out of an apex on tight corners. This was especially apparently in the afternoon sessions when my tires got a little greasy.

So my question is, should I try driving with MDM the next time out (in two weeks)? Or I am better off keeping traction control on and just focus on being smooth on corner entry/exit? I am thinking maybe TC came on is because I got on the gas too early or too hard? But a few times my instructor was telling to hammer it but the car just wouldn't go till it completely straightened out.

Oh I also got signed off by in the afternoon to drive solo. although I am going to request an instructor the next time out, at least for the morning sessions and see how it goes first.

Depends on the track and your comfort level. You can be fast with MDM, and it forces you to be a better (think smooth) driver when you're trying not to get into traction control.
There will come a point when it hinders your development, but that takes some time.

[z3papa]

I may leave it on MDM on a parade lap, but after that I'd rather drive the car myself than have the nannies limit what I can or can't do. Probably doesn't hurt that I have slow hands/I'm pretty smooth.

[Montaver]

I find MDM (euro MDM) intrusive on track, I drive with it off unless its raining. The car is naturally communicative and telgraphs through the seat / steering with plenty of warning so you don't need it. I think driving with MDM will amplify bad habits if anything, as it will cover for hamfisted inputs.

[Datka]

Euro MDM is not very intrusive at all if you are smooth with your right foot and don't hammer it on every corner exit.
Off course if you want to set lap time records or win HPDE championships, then you must turn TC off completely, but in this case REMEMBER, as an inexperienced track driver your chances of wrecking the car will increase significantly.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Datka

Euro MDM is not very intrusive at all if you are smooth with your right foot and don't hammer it on every corner exit.
Off course if you want to set lap time records or win HPDE championships, then you must turn TC off completely, but in this case REMEMBER, as an inexperienced track driver your chances of wrecking the car will increase significantly.

My best times are still with MDM Euro on.
I can get close to those times with DSC off, but I have yet to beat my MDM Euro times.

Having said that, I am working on driving with DSC off, it is more satisfying , but still slower for me.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by rhyary

My best times are still with MDM Euro on.
I can get close to those times with DSC off, but I have yet to beat my MDM Euro times.

Having said that, I am working on driving with DSC off, it is more satisfying , but still slower for me.

It should be faster with it off because any level of traction control will apply brakes preventatively (meaning prematurely even thought it didn't need to). That means you're definitely losing time.

I mean my tc light flickers when I'm angling into a driveway for crying out loud lol

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by MaximusB

Thanks! That's more or less what I am thinking. Focus more on smoothness and be more consistent on entry and exit, than just on speed and time. It is just a little deflating when having to give point-by to S2K, FRS..etc and only to catch up on the straight away or fast corners.

Nothing to be deflated about getting passed by S2K's, FRS's, or any car for that matter - especially when first starting out. Speed will come with practice, just keep working on your skills and safety.

DSC off vs on - if you feel like you can safely control the car then maybe think about turning it off. Maybe pick your spots though - light traffic, ample runoff, etc. Reduce the pressure as much as possible and but stay aware and don't get tunnel vision. Start slow and learn the car. Push when the time is right, pull back when its not. Just be honest with yourself & you will know if you are ready to turn it off. Like dparm said you want to learn the cars limits but not by finding the barrier. Car control / skid classes can be pretty helpful to get the correct reactions ingrained.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Datka

Euro MDM is not very intrusive at all if you are smooth with your right foot and don't hammer it on every corner exit.
Off course if you want to set lap time records or win HPDE championships, then you must turn TC off completely, but in this case REMEMBER, as an inexperienced track driver your chances of wrecking the car will increase significantly.

Were talking 10+ year old DSC technology here, it really isn't that good. If you don't find MDM intrusive, your not pushing the car very hard. If you want to putt around the track thats up to you, but turning off DSC doesn't mean you are immediately going to put the car into a wall. The sooner you can turn off DSC the faster you will progress as a driver. The point is DSC ALLOWS you to drive in exactly the manner you described, turning if off forces you to actually understand how your inputs affect the cars attitude as there no software layer in the middle trying to keep the car within pre-determined boundaries. Ultimately some people don't have enough confidence in their own ability to turn it off. Also who doesn't like HPDE trophies

[Datka]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Were talking 10+ year old DSC technology here, it really isn't that good. If you don't find MDM intrusive, your not pushing the car very hard. If you want to putt around the track thats up to you

Talking to me? If you read my post carefully my message was directed towards novace, inexperienced track drivers.
As far as my own driving, I do drive with euro MDM sometimes and I don't find it very intrusive. And that's what I would recommend to novace/intermediate drivers.
How does 1:59 lap time sound in a street legal e92m3 at WGI? That time was done with TC off.
Does it sound like I am putting around the track and not pushing hard

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Were talking 10+ year old DSC technology here, it really isn't that good. If you don't find MDM intrusive, your not pushing the car very hard. If you want to putt around the track thats up to you, but turning off DSC doesn't mean you are immediately going to put the car into a wall. The sooner you can turn off DSC the faster you will progress as a driver. The point is DSC ALLOWS you to drive in exactly the manner you described, turning if off forces you to actually understand how your inputs affect the cars attitude as there no software layer in the middle trying to keep the car within pre-determined boundaries. Ultimately some people don't have enough confidence in their own ability to turn it off. Also who doesn't like HPDE trophies

"Were talking 10+ year old DSC technology here, it really isn't that good. "

I disagree. Euro MDM brakes individual wheels and is very good for fast lap times.

"If you don't find MDM intrusive, your not pushing the car very hard."

I disagree. Euro MDM intervenes on a threshold that is very close to available traction.

While it is possible to go faster with DSC off, it is not a night and day faster. However, you do feel that your inputs are more direct with DSC off hence it is more enjoyable at added risk.

The notion that experience drivers don't leave the track surface in unpleasant consequence is false and misleading to new drivers - With all the bravado expressed on Internet forums about traction control topic.

[gmx]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I find MDM (euro MDM) intrusive on track, I drive with it off unless its raining. The car is naturally communicative and telgraphs through the seat / steering with plenty of warning so you don't need it. I think driving with MDM will amplify bad habits if anything, as it will cover for hamfisted inputs.

This, 100%. MDM teaches bad habits, you just end mashing the gas while the car wears down brake pads slowing it down or arbitrarily closing the throttle.
It is of my opinion the standard sub-par rear LSD needs it off to even work effectively anyway. The algorithm is not advanced enough, it's not a Porsche nor racecar.
Even worse with shortwheelbase, weirdly sprung/damped 1M. I'm 1-2 seconds slower per 60seconds with it on.
Maybe keep it on in wet conditions and high speed tracks where you're not confident. It can save you when you're also going in too hot.

Has anyone had experience with either DS Uno or 1.11 or even the new 3.12 (probably goes through discs like butter) pads? Specifically mixing and matching front/rear compounds with the OE braking system or at least OE rear brakes and a BBK up front?

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Datka

Talking to me? If you read my post carefully my message was directed towards novace, inexperienced track drivers.
As far as my own driving, I do drive with euro MDM sometimes and I don't find it very intrusive. And that's what I would recommend to novace/intermediate drivers.
How does 1:59 lap time sound in a street legal e92m3 at WGI? That time was done with TC off.
Does it sound like I am putting around the track and not pushing hard

I'm not questioning your skill, thats a very fast lap time. I'm saying telling novices that they are highly likely to put the car off without DSC on just isn't the case. Were not driving 700HP GT2's that will quite happily snap oversteer you into a wall just looking at it!

The E9x is very neutral and predictable as you know. I'm saying drive with DSC off as soon as possible, because you actually fully control what the car is doing. Build the skills from the beginning, rather than suddenly turning it off and realising it covers for a lot of bad habits.

Newer McLarens and Ferraris for example have much more sophisticated control systems where you can really dial back slip angles etc. I have never driven a new system but I'd be very interested to try one, I bet it would be a lot less noticeable.

[dogbone]

I used Euro MDM on track for 4 years until the end of 2015. I drove every track in California with it. And I watched its behavior with an AIM Solo DL. I think it's fair to say I know it's characteristics.

When you push hard on track with the E9x M3's traction control system. The two main tools it uses are:

-dabbing a single front brake caliper to prevent oversteer in sweeper/rounder parts of the track.
-holding back power if you mash the gas too soon on corner exit. And then allowing the power to be applied by the engine smoothly and gradually when the car decides it's safe to do so after the corner. (This second tool is sneaky and it's harder to know when it's happening. You only really realize what it was doing when you turn off DSC and then experience the full rush of power when you press the gas and then finally understand that DSC was holding the power back. You just hope that you don't spin as you are realizing it......)

The yellow DSC logo on the dash doesn't always flash while DSC is doing it's thing.

While traction control usually works in the background and does small things to try to prevent crazy situations, we have seen videos of it pulling people out of tank-slapper situations that most people would not be able to overcome. (This can occur if you dropped two wheels off-track and then try to save it. The car hooks as it comes back on track and things get ugly really quick. We've seen DSC save that. Amazing.) Being able to grab individual brake calipers is a powerful tool. The system may have been developed over a decade ago, but that doesn't mean it's crap. I think it's main limitation is that you can't specifically program or tune it to act how you want it to act. (A Motec ECU has like 10 levels of traction control that can be fully tuned to do whatever the heck you want it to do.)

If a person wants to drive with DSC off, I highly recommend they spend time on a skid pad sliding a car around and learning how to effectively countersteer. Most of traction control's intrusions are done to keep the rear of the car in the rear. Traction control doesn't necessarily keep the car on track. It doesn't know where the track is. It's trying to stop you from spinning. So, learning the basics of countersteering-a-slide is the first step to driving without traction control. The second thing you can learn on the skid pad is how to apply the gas pedal. By purposefully applying too much gas, you can start to understand what the car feels like as the rear is breaking loose. Understanding that feeling is important. Different tires offer different traction. Different turns offer different amounts of grip. You need to learn what it feels like as the tires are losing grip so that you can adapt to the situation in each turn with whatever tire may be on the car. It is best to learn these lessons in a low risk environment like a skid pad where it's safe because experiencing them on a race track at full speed for the first time has way more risk. And a race track has so many other variables going on with other cars around and various track conditions, that you may not be able to concentrate on the nuts-and-bolts skill building while the car is sliding. You're too busy freaking out because there are other cars and walls around. Plus, most event organizers these days don't allow drifting. If they see a dude hanging the ass of his car out there repeatedly, he's getting called in.

An autocross course can also build good skill. But I would still HIGHLY recommend a skid pad where you can just go crazy hanging the ass of the car out there over and over and over. (Doing a wet skid pad is fine, but for learning purposes, I prefer dry pavement because that teaches you more what a regular dry track will feel like.) There is no substitute for understanding that feeling as the ass is about to start to step out, countersteering it, and then learning how to apply the gas pedal to keep the car going. As you do it more and more, you start to develop a Spider-Man sense for when it's about to happen. Porsche drivers who drive without traction control have an advanced Spidey-sense for when that tail is about to step out.

The other lesson you need to learn as time goes on is that countersteering has to be appropriate to each situation and to the speed you are going. Countersteering is not just a generic response. A skid pad countersteer at slow speed requires one amount of input. But a 90mph countersteer requires a different (less) amount of input. You have to feel your way through it. I bring this up because I watched a video recently of a driver who spun in a high speed left-hand turn and couldn't figure out why. My conclusion is that the rear stepped out just a little bit in the high speed turn (not even noticeable on the video). But he countered with a huge countersteer---like more than a full turn of the steering wheel. It was such a large countersteer, that the front tires grabbed and the nose of the car was moved noticeably to the right, and the car immediately came around to the left.......he spun instantly into the rocky dirt......In a high speed situation like that, you want smaller movements to keep the rear in the rear. At slower speeds, you may need to countersteer more. But again, you have to feel these things out. I think a racetrack is the last place you want to be feeling these things for the first time. It's the highest risk place to be experiencing it. What you want is a low risk place to do it for the first time.

I had an experience at Buttonwillow a few months ago that's related to this. I have a supercharged E90, so the car has a lot of power. Exiting the Esses at Buttonwillow at full throttle in a supercharged E90 is challenging, but it is possible. But you can't do it all the time. The condition of the tires affects whether you can stay full throttle. So you have to feel it out based on the condition of the tires. On this day, my Spidey sense was telling me that with the scrubs on the car, I could not stay full throttle on the exit of the Esses. But I wondered if I was really sensing the situation correctly. So, I pushed harder on a subsequent lap and the tail got a tad loose at 120+mph on the exit of the Esses. The tires weren't good for it. My Spidey senses were correctly interpreting the situation, but I was doubting them. From that experience, I am even more willing to listen to my Spidey senses now. At that speed, it was a small amount of inputs that brought the tail back. If I had gone wild with some freak out countersteer, the situation would have resulted in some kind of spin.

The last thing I will recommend is that, if you have been driving with MDM on track for awhile and you want to drive DSC-off, back the speed off a bit, and then slowly work back to your full pace. There will be some "ah ha" moments where you feel the throttle come on immediately that will surprise you. At a slower pace, you can deal with that.

For most of us, motorsport is about having fun and learning. Unfortunately, big egos get in the way. Or public shaming causes someone to turn it off and then that person gets in over their head. I was ridiculed endlessly for using traction control. I didn't care. No one else was gonna pay for my car if I messed it up. I turned DSC off when it felt right to me. How did I turn off traction control after 4 years with it on?----I had been on the skid pad several times. I had been practicing on track with DSC-off about 25% of my track time at lower speeds for almost a year. (When I was in traffic on track, I would turn MDM back on.) The first day I really drove at full pace with DSC off, I was on a semi-exclusive day at Buttonwillow, and there was no one else on the track. I was literally the only one there. I spent a whole day getting comfortable with it at full pace with no one else around.

[Richbot]

Autocross is The best tool for getting the quick hands and intuitive car control you need to get up to speed without traction control in a relatively safe environment. You’ll learn more true car control skills in 5 events than 5 seasons of tracking with the car’s safety nets turned on imo. Yeah it’s not much time in the car but the time you do get is 100% on the limit with very low average consequences for screwing up.

Autocross is why I and others can have a drought of a year or more and show up in a spec class at a new track or one I haven’t seen in half a decade and still show well. The skills (hands, feet, ass and eyes) have been hardwired

One way to short circuit this is an Evolution Performance Driving School. Bring fresh street tires and lots of water.

There are other paths but for the most part If you look at the “mere mortals”guys who succeed/punch way above their weight at events like One Lap of America, or people climbing the ladder in the semi-pro/pro series, they’re just about all solid autocrossers

Pobst
Foley
Yada yada the list goes on forever. Go hit some cones

[CorruptCommie]

Believe it or not, some people go to the race track to drive in the paddock.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Believe it or not, some people go to the race track to drive in the paddock.

Absolutely.
Most people in my track days could care less about going 1 second faster.

[roastbeef]

.

[StripclubDJ]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Is this reall life?