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02-11-2014, 12:22 AM | #67 | |
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02-11-2014, 12:31 AM | #68 | |
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02-11-2014, 01:18 AM | #69 | |||
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02-11-2014, 02:09 AM | #70 | |
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Although, 2 counter points - most of the bearings Clevite examined were from supercharged engines and secondly also pointed out the benefits of relatively tight bearing clearances, specifically "they; 1) spread the load on the oil film out over a wider area, reducing the psi load on the film and reducing the chances for boundary or mixed lubrication conditions and 2) allow longer engine/bearing life."
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02-11-2014, 05:41 AM | #71 |
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Not playing your games in this thread
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02-11-2014, 09:55 AM | #72 |
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02-11-2014, 10:04 AM | #73 | ||
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The Clevite guy also never answered the question about the role of supercharging. Most of the supercharged bearings I sent had very low miles on them. One set as low as 1800 supercharged miles. Yet the Clevite guy labeled all of them "terrible." That's not sitting well with me. If bearings went from perfect to the verge of failure in as little as 1800 miles, then I think we'd see a lot of supercharged engine failures (we aren't). Here's another example where I think the Clevite response was more expedient and politically correct than expository. I'm simply not buying that those bearings were fine one day and then like a light switch they turned terrible the moment a supercharger was added. |
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02-11-2014, 10:09 AM | #74 |
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BTW, OP congrats on the new engine. I'd say no doubt BMW is aware of the issue and definitely aware of the various bearing and blown engine threads on this forum.
To all the naysayers who believed BMW designed the perfect engine with the perfect bearing clearance mated with the perfect oil: what's your explanation for BMW replacing an engine free of charge 1+ years out of warranty? |
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02-11-2014, 10:09 AM | #75 | |
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I really don't know why people still keep evading the main issue, and that is tight clearance coupled with too thick engine oil. BMW doesn't have a history of bad coil packs. They don't have a history of detonation. They don't have a history of reacting to bad fuel. What they do have a history of is a problem with clearances and oil. That was the same with the E46 M3 and the E60 M5. There is just no evidence whatsoever of any problems in terms of detonation that would lead to such bearing wear. Modern fuels are good quality. And modern engines have sophisticated knock detection and anti-detonation measures that would kick in and throw the engine into limp mode long before there is a chance of serious harm. Your arguments in the bearing thread were based on nothing more than pure speculation and guesswork without any factual evidence to back it up. |
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02-11-2014, 12:37 PM | #76 | |
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02-11-2014, 12:51 PM | #77 | |
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02-11-2014, 01:06 PM | #79 |
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I'm getting a new motor from a crate shipped from where ever they are manufactured as if it were going into a new M3 in the assembly line from what I understand.
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02-11-2014, 01:10 PM | #80 |
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02-11-2014, 02:01 PM | #81 |
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You need to go down on the day it arrives and take pics of it during the uncrating!
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02-11-2014, 02:12 PM | #82 |
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Already on it! Will post up once I take them.
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02-11-2014, 02:26 PM | #83 |
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BMW have an s65 on display at the Welt. The lady giving the tour got upset with me because she was moving the tour group on and it was clear I was not moving on with them. Couldn't stop gawking at the engine. It's a beauty to look at.
Good times
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02-11-2014, 02:26 PM | #84 | |
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Even 93 octane is low octane to a 12:1 compression ratio motor. You can't run 12:1 on anything less than about 110 octane without a very good and very active spark management system. BMW also varies the cylinder pressure by controller CAM overlap and thereby makes a kind of form of dynamic compression ratio. You need to have very good ECU programming to make this all work together. So if 91 octane is the problem, then BMW screwed up the programming of the ECU. That's the same thing the Clevite guy and other engine experts all said about this low octane theory. Just so there's no misunderstanding here: 93 octane is low to a 12:1 motor also. That makes all 50 states "low octane states" to this engine. So if 93 is fine and 91 is the problem, then BMW screwed up the ECU programming. |
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02-11-2014, 02:48 PM | #85 |
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Just so there is no misunderstanding.....Regular Guy Q&A with Clevite:
Q: Are there any signs of detonation? A: Probably, but certainly signs of very high cylinder pressure on the supercharged applications. Detonation is uncontrolled combustion of the fuel in an engine. Normal combustion in an engine starts with a fuel burn at the sparkplug then burns on an ever expanding flame front until the fuel is consumed. It is similar to a grass fire starting at one spot and burning in an ever expanding flame front. In detonation the spark ignites the fuel then fuel on the back side of the combustion chamber explodes before the flame front has reached it. When that occurs, cylinder pressure spikes quickly and sometimes reaches 2-3 times normal cylinder pressure. The duration of the spike is short but that pressure spike is really hard on the oil film. Those dark, worn, some what round spots of wear on a number of upper rod bearings may be and probably are indications of that happening. What can cause detonation? Lean fuel conditions, poor octane quality fuel, too much ignition timing, too much engine compression for the fuel being used - these are the most common causes. Q: Are there any signs of bearing clearance deficiencies. The nominal bearing clearance is 0.00140 inch on a 2.04655 inch journal. A: I know you are all hot on this, but I just don't see it. The upper shells in most of the samples show a wear pattern over 2/3 of the surface which we'd consider normal. So: High combustion loads and detonation can produce the type of rod bearing wear seen on the S/Ced engines. The Ionic anti knock system is not infallible. The bearing clearance is fine.. |
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02-11-2014, 02:57 PM | #86 |
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02-11-2014, 03:03 PM | #87 | |
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Q: Do you recall if the signs of detonation were predominantly on supercharged over NA bearings? Or did you see signs on each? A: It was all supercharged engines. The NA engines didn't show signs of detonation. BTW, the NA engine bearings Clevite saw all came from California. You're jumping from point-A to point-Z without anything in between. You're taking a bunch of "what if's" and saying "that's what happened." Don't ignore that the Clevite guy also said he saw no signs of detonation on the NA bearings. If you have engine experts who believes 93 octane isn't "low octane to a 12:1 engine" then feel free to line them up so their beliefs and expertise can be analyzed in public. Just show me an engine expert who believes you can even run 93 octane on a 12:1 engine without active spark management. This engine isn't supercharged, had pretty low miles, was meticulously cared for, never tracked, was warmed up before driving, was serviced regularly, and oil changed more often than required using BMW required 10W60 oil. Yet it suffered worse than any other engine I've seen short of a rod out the side of a block. I'll stand behind what I said and what Clevite said in private (parts I couldn't post verbatim but did paraphrase): if 91 octane is a problem, then BMW doesn't know how to program ECU's. |
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02-11-2014, 03:50 PM | #88 | |
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The high rod bearing wear patterns seen (on the S/Ced engines (and similar on stock cars)) are compatible with an engine experiencing detonation/high combustion loads....something that has been disputed before. The anti-knock system is not infallible as shown by above. And as Clevite noted that: "The upper shells in most of the [N/A] samples show a wear pattern over 2/3 of the surface which we'd consider normal." and "the N/A sets looked pretty normal" Then its not surprising that they didn't note signs of detonation. The reason I asked about the coils packs was that I found another failure in a car out of warranty whose engine was also replaced under goodwill that had history of coil problems in the cylinder whose piston subsequently failed. There are quite a few posts noting coil pack problems and you have to wonder how much damage that could do. Well they are certainly clear that they much rather owners used 93 octane fuel...I'm guessing there is a reason behind that. Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 02-11-2014 at 05:02 PM.. |
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