Dyno Rematch: Battle between Dinan & RD Sport for 4.6L Stroker Motor Bragging Rights

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by e92zero

wonder what would cam do for these strokers. Actually wonder what number would the following configuration do: fbo but not catless, cams, RD stroker package with the bigger intake plenum, dinan intake elbow, dinan throttle bodies. Think that would break 550 crank hp?

In the next two months, a project will be completed that may help answer that question. A stroker is currently going together with cams, but no extra head work. Since it's in my area, we might schedule a 3-way stroker shootout.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Cam and head work is where the power will be. Plenum elbow and tb already flow more than what is needed for the size and rpm of this engine.
Not that ones and twos do not matter but for the effort and money just not much to be gained.
The 284/292 combo would probably be best on the stroker

That's cool. I have heard that the head is already extremely good on the s65. The dinan elbow has shown some gain by other members. I don't know about the throttle bodies and the plenum though but just thought they might contribute when the displacement goes up. I am just interested in what number a fully built NA stroker can do for this engine. The Porsche 918 spyder engine is a 4.6 liter NA rated at ~608 hp. I know they are not the same and the Porsche has no engine driven accessories but just really curious how close we can get to that number with a 4.6 stroker for our car.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by e92zero

That's cool. I have heard that the head is already extremely good on the s65. The dinan elbow has shown some gain by other members. I don't know about the throttle bodies and the plenum though but just thought they might contribute when the displacement goes up. I am just interested in what number a fully built NA stroker can do for this engine. The Porsche 918 spyder engine is a 4.6 liter NA rated at ~608 hp. I know they are not the same and the Porsche has no engine driven accessories but just really curious how close we can get to that number with a 4.6 stroker for our car.

The thing with the cams for it to be really right, bottom end needs to be changed with good pistons and rods, (already is with stroker) crank is already forged but titanium valves and springs need to be installed so it can be turned 9000+.
There is a TON of power to be had even in the NA builds, just depends on how much money wants to be spent. A 4.6 can make 600 problem is usually a couple are lost before finding certain things out but a platform such as this one is too expensive to grenade a few just for testing sake.

[Hujan]

I seem to vaguely recall from the first thread that someone speculated that the Dinan intake was robbing power by actually producing higher IATs than the factory elbow and filter.

From the data in this shootout, it looks like the exact opposite is true, as the Dinan car had lower IATs (and oil temps) than the stock or RD Sport car. The difference may be negligible, but it at least seems to put to rest the claim that the Dinan intake hurts performance.

[thugmaster]

I wonder if anyone did a stroker / supercharge build yet. I'm curious to see the difference from just a blower.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The thing with the cams for it to be really right, bottom end needs to be changed with good pistons and rods, (already is with stroker) crank is already forged but titanium valves and springs need to be installed so it can be turned 9000+.
There is a TON of power to be had even in the NA builds, just depends on how much money wants to be spent. A 4.6 can make 600 problem is usually a couple are lost before finding certain things out but a platform such as this one is too expensive to grenade a few just for testing sake.

Thanks. I agree it's an expensive platform. I would love to build one of these in the future though. Hopefully by the time I get to it, someone else already done it so I won't be the 'first' and the 'test'.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by thugmaster

I wonder if anyone did a stroker / supercharge build yet. I'm curious to see the difference from just a blower.

I would also like to know! With the ESS kits, a S85 does'nt seem to make much more hp then an S65 at the same boost level, I wonder if it would be the same thing with the strokers!

[dtmwerksm3]

Why anyone would spend that kinda money for those gains is way the hell beyond me.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by dtmwerksm3

Why anyone would spend that kinda money for those gains is way the hell beyond me.

I tend to agree

[Petros]

Superchargers really seem like a bargain by comparison. The stock engine already puts out 103 hp/L of displacement. Assuming say a 490 hp output from a 4.6 L stroker, that improves the specific output to 106 hp/L. Without radical redesign of the top end to improve flow there probably isn't much else that can be done to this engine to increase power output.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Petros

Superchargers really seem like a bargain by comparison. The stock engine already puts out 103 hp/L of displacement. Assuming say a 490 hp output from a 4.6 L stroker, that improves the specific output to 106 hp/L. Without radical redesign of the top end to improve flow there probably isn't much else that can be done to this engine to increase power output.

in stock form the S65 makes 103hp/litre but with bolt-ons it's more like ~112hp/litre

[Jbook]

Originally Posted by thugmaster

I wonder if anyone did a stroker / supercharge build yet. I'm curious to see the difference from just a blower.

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I would also like to know! With the ESS kits, a S85 does'nt seem to make much more hp then an S65 at the same boost level, I wonder if it would be the same thing with the strokers!

Regular Guy has a supercharged stroker built e92.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

in stock form the S65 makes 103hp/litre but with bolt-ons it's more like ~112hp/litre

True. And I think that's the best and only way to go. Bolt on mods. From all the threads popping out on this forum, the only logical conclusion is that the M3 is a lousy platform for a big power build. I think it's best to enjoy the M3 the way it was meant to be, bone stock with maybe minor bolt on mods. If someone desires big power, they should just go get a corvette, gtr, c63, or even a v8 mustang.

The S65 seems like a fussy engine that doesn't respond well to mods and is nearly maxed out already from the factory. Stroker builds are way too expensive for very modest gains. Supercharger kits do generate the power but at a cost of exacerbating a pre-existing rod bearing problem and increasing the risk of catastrophic engine failure.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by e92zero

That's cool. I have heard that the head is already extremely good on the s65. The dinan elbow has shown some gain by other members. I don't know about the throttle bodies and the plenum though but just thought they might contribute when the displacement goes up. I am just interested in what number a fully built NA stroker can do for this engine. The Porsche 918 spyder engine is a 4.6 liter NA rated at ~608 hp. I know they are not the same and the Porsche has no engine driven accessories but just really curious how close we can get to that number with a 4.6 stroker for our car.

I tested elbows, a plenum, and throttle bodies on a FBO stroker in a controlled test. I started with the plenum and basic FBO accessories. All tests were done within 24 hours, with the same tank of gas, and same weather conditions.

Base configuration:

• RD Sport 4.6L Stroker Motor
• RD Sport Underdrive Pulley
• Larger Plenum
• AFE Wet Filter
• RD Sport Long Tube 4-1 Headers (40mm)
• 200 Cell High-Flow Catalytic Converter
• RD Sport Exhaust
• Power Chip Custom ECU Tune
• 96 Octane (US), 100.6 Octane (RON)
• 6-Speed Manual Transmission

Results:

1. Baseline FBO Stroker: 421 whp. http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=376
2. + Dinan Throttle Bodies: 419 whp (-2whp). http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=382
3. + Technocraft Envy Intake: 424 whp (+5whp). http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=385
4. + CAT Delete, Amuse Exhaust: 433 whp (+9whp). http://www.s65dynos.com/showDyno.php?recID=114

If you look in the Dyno Database at all of these entries, you will see all of the weather conditions, etc.

In a nutshell from the baseline: Dinan throttle bodies, -2whp, free flow intake, +5whp, CAT delete from HFC's, +9whp.

[thugmaster]

Originally Posted by Jbook

Regular Guy has a supercharged stroker built e92.

Nice. Now to see what a pair of turbos can do....

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by thugmaster

Nice. Now to see what a pair of turbos can do....

Here's the dyno chart from the build. Very low boost: 5.75 PSI.
RunFile_009 = Supercharged stroker
RunFile_002 = Not sure what that is
RunFile_007 = Full Bolt On Stroker (NA)
RunFile_003 = Bone Stock



Here's how the supercharged stroker stacks up against the NA strokers and a bunch of supercharged stock bottom end S65's.

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The thing with the cams for it to be really right, bottom end needs to be changed with good pistons and rods, (already is with stroker) crank is already forged but titanium valves and springs need to be installed so it can be turned 9000+.
There is a TON of power to be had even in the NA builds, just depends on how much money wants to be spent. A 4.6 can make 600 problem is usually a couple are lost before finding certain things out but a platform such as this one is too expensive to grenade a few just for testing sake.

What about cams with a stock bottom end and staying below 8,500rpm? (I guess it would depend on the lift and how stout the stock valvetrain is) but has anyone really done much research on cams for S65s yet?

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Petros

True. And I think that's the best and only way to go. Bolt on mods. From all the threads popping out on this forum, the only logical conclusion is that the M3 is a lousy platform for a big power build. I think it's best to enjoy the M3 the way it was meant to be, bone stock with maybe minor bolt on mods. If someone desires big power, they should just go get a corvette, gtr, c63, or even a v8 mustang.

The S65 seems like a fussy engine that doesn't respond well to mods and is nearly maxed out already from the factory. Stroker builds are way too expensive for very modest gains. Supercharger kits do generate the power but at a cost of exacerbating a pre-existing rod bearing problem and increasing the risk of catastrophic engine failure.

Humm, I tend to disagree with you(again ) about the fact that the minor bolt-ons is the only way to go with the S65! It's so rare to ear about members who broke an engine because of boost, I really don't see why you think the S65 does not respond well to superchargers, so many members here have proven the opposite! Probably the fact that there's more thread about rod bearings issue then there is actual blown S65 has contributed to the general paranoia but let me tell you this, no engine is without a problem! Just an exemple, my friend who owns a stock C63(which many consider to have a bullet proof engine) with half my mileage has blown his head gaskets, while me with my fussy supercharged S65 has never had an issue except for a bad o2 sensor(probably not supercharger related)!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not stupid enough to think that a blower wont accelarate the wear of my engine, but with the used S65 getting cheaper(I'v seen many in the $6-7k range) and my car being a keeper , I'm willing to take that small risk of blowing an engine in exchange of having the pleasure to drive this incredebly fun toy!! I honestly think that my s/c S65 has nothing to envy to the V10 you find in a Gallardo/R8 as far as fun to drive, and these cars are well well over my budget so to me a blower is a no brainer!!

I'll probably think of changing my rod bearings one day but I'll wait to see what can be done, tuning wise, with the new M3/M4 before deciding if I keep my car long enough for that!

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Billj747

What about cams with a stock bottom end and staying below 8,500rpm? (I guess it would depend on the lift and how stout the stock valvetrain is) but has anyone really done much research on cams for S65s yet?

Stock valve springs don't have nearly as much seat pressure as the aftermarket valve springs available through Dinan, RD Sport, and Auto Talent. They are also a little too close to coil bind for my comfort. So changing valve springs are a must for the new cams. Luckily, they're not very expensive.

I've heard of two or three people doing cams, but I've never seen any dyno results.

[StealYourFace]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Stock valve springs don't have nearly as much seat pressure as the aftermarket valve springs available through Dinan, RD Sport, and Auto Talent. They are also a little too close to coil bind for my comfort. So changing valve springs are a must for the new cams. Luckily, they're not very expensive.

I've heard of two or three people doing cams, but I've never seen any dyno results.

What implications does that have for people with a stock internal motor that has a tune and raises the redline, is there a risk to float a valve?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Billj747

What about cams with a stock bottom end and staying below 8,500rpm? (I guess it would depend on the lift and how stout the stock valvetrain is) but has anyone really done much research on cams for S65s yet?

If keeping the stock redline the cams would still help if it was a stroker, not going to be much there with stock engine though. Cant just throw more cam to it and expect it to pick up 50. The cost is the big factor 2800 for the small set of cams. Thats the M tax for ya, almost can buy a set of custom made billet cores for that price. I think people would be shocked to see how a supercharged engine would run with the stock intake cam and a different exhaust cam.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Stock valve springs don't have nearly as much seat pressure as the aftermarket valve springs available through Dinan, RD Sport, and Auto Talent. They are also a little too close to coil bind for my comfort. So changing valve springs are a must for the new cams. Luckily, they're not very expensive.

I've heard of two or three people doing cams, but I've never seen any dyno results.

Shoot me a PM about the coil bind specs if you would

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

What implications does that have for people with a stock internal motor that has a tune and raises the redline, is there a risk to float a valve?

I doubt it, there is always a safety margain in stock cars. 200rpm is not much, the 6mt cars tend to zing higher than the dct anyway so I have no worries about my dct with raised rev limiter. The amount of time that the engine sees that rpm is very small for street guys. If tracking the car alot I may back it down to stock specs

[aus]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Humm, I tend to disagree with you(again ) about the fact that the minor bolt-ons is the only way to go with the S65! It's so rare to ear about members who broke an engine because of boost, I really don't see why you think the S65 does not respond well to superchargers, so many members here have proven the opposite! Probably the fact that there's more thread about rod bearings issue then there is actual blown S65 has contributed to the general paranoia but let me tell you this, no engine is without a problem! Just an exemple, my friend who owns a stock C63(which many consider to have a bullet proof engine) with half my mileage has blown his head gaskets, while me with my fussy supercharged S65 has never had an issue except for a bad o2 sensor(probably not supercharger related)!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not stupid enough to think that a blower wont accelarate the wear of my engine, but with the used S65 getting cheaper(I'v seen many in the $6-7k range) and my car being a keeper , I'm willing to take that small risk of blowing an engine in exchange of having the pleasure to drive this incredebly fun toy!! I honestly think that my s/c S65 has nothing to envy to the V10 you find in a Gallardo/R8 as far as fun to drive, and these cars are well well over my budget so to me a blower is a no brainer!!

I'll probably think of changing my rod bearings one day but I'll wait to see what can be done, tuning wise, with the new M3/M4 before deciding if I keep my car long enough for that!

That's a known issue with that engine. My buddy just had his engine changed out from his AMG G wagon. It's all over the MB forums too.

.