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      09-14-2019, 11:55 PM   #10297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
two years of experimenting with tires, psi, alignments, many different lines thru each corner, new set of brake pads and new front and rear Hoosiers 26/35/19 and 295/30/19, perfect weather, low attendance (clear track) and an awesome rabbit to chase around.

The funny story is that the last track day I chased the same guy, but last time he had McLaren 520, so when he showed up with the 720s, we joked that I was too close to him.

As you will see in the video, it took me 3 laps to wear him down :-)
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https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=25250439
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I would guess that just the new Hoosiers would give you the time difference. The other tires you’ve been running do not compare.
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      09-15-2019, 12:07 AM   #10298
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I would guess that just the new Hoosiers would give you the time difference. The other tires you’ve been running do not compare.
From what I recall, I don't think this is his first set of the Hoosiers.
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      09-15-2019, 07:06 AM   #10299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I would guess that just the new Hoosiers would give you the time difference. The other tires you’ve been running do not compare.
From what I recall, I don't think this is his first set of the Hoosiers.
In my experience, it's difficult for some folks to get everything out of a new set of Hoosiers the first couple of times. A lot folks have to work their way up to trusting the available grip. YMMV.
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      09-15-2019, 08:14 AM   #10300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
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Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
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Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I would guess that just the new Hoosiers would give you the time difference. The other tires you've been running do not compare.
From what I recall, I don't think this is his first set of the Hoosiers.
In my experience, it's difficult for some folks to get everything out of a new set of Hoosiers the first couple of times. A lot folks have to work their way up to trusting the available grip. YMMV.
Fundametly, learning is not linear.
Specifically, learning to go fast at NYST is a process.
Almost every turn is blind.
Almost every turn has an on-camber line and off camber line. This is done to drain water and the track is very good at not pooling water.
Every car has its own fast line and that line is not obvious.
Most drivers can get to 1:40 with capable cars, but not a lot of 3500Lbs cars can go below 1:40, because 18 turns require tossing the car, something that is hard to do with 3500Lbs

Most people, including myself, don't have access to suspension engineers or pit crew to adjust things.

So... this is why it is not one factor, but a culmination of adjustments that I systematically changed during this summer and previous summers.

Here are the specific factors that helped with 1:35 and what I have done this season track days including Friday:

Friday
1. Cool day - good for the supercharger
2. Sunny - good for track surface temp
3. New brake pads
4. New Hoosier set

During the 2019 season
1. Clicking the JRZ +1 trackdays ago front and back to the stiffer fast dumping yet.
2. Rebound to half way (12 clicks) slower than last year
3. Adjusting the slow dumping -1
4. Raising the JRZ nitrogen PSI from 200 to 250
5. Practicing going slow on the straights and fast in the corners on high gear to learn momentum
6. Practicing with the DSC off, going a bit slower (1:38-1:40) to feel the car better.

We can call this "learning to trust the Hoosier grip" but the real issue is "how" do you learn to trust the grip?

You can also say in reasonable certainty that after three years I am a better driver, but again what are the specifics that make one a better driver? Most people I have met at the track are still trying to break 1:42s

The next thing I am trying is to adjust the sway bars. I moved the rear Hotckins to the third and stiffer hole to see if I can get the rear to swing out a bit better. The fronts are still on the third hole which is second softest. I may move it to the second (stiffer) hole but not before I see what the rear is doing.

It is all very interesting to figure out....
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      09-15-2019, 08:17 AM   #10301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
I would guess that just the new Hoosiers would give you the time difference. The other tires you've been running do not compare.
From what I recall, I don't think this is his first set of the Hoosiers.
In my experience, it's difficult for some folks to get everything out of a new set of Hoosiers the first couple of times. A lot folks have to work their way up to trusting the available grip. YMMV.
Fundametly, learning is not linear.
Specifically, learning to go fast at NYST is a process.
Almost every turn is blind.
Almost every turn has an on-camber line and off camber line. This is done to drain water and track is very good at not pooling water.
Every car has its own fast line and that line is not obvious
Most driver can get to 1:40 with capable cars
Not a lot of 3500Lbs cars can go below 1:40, because 18 turns requires tossing the car, something that is hard to do with 3500Lbs
Most people, including myself, don't have access to suspension engineer or pit crew to adjust things.

So... this is why it is not one factor, but a culmination of adjustments that I systematically changed during the summer . Here are the specifics of factors for the what I have done this season track days including Friday:

Friday
1. Cool day - good for the supercharger
2. Sunny - good for track surface temp
3. New brake pads
4. New Hoosier set

During the 2019 season
1. Clicking the JRZ +1 trackdays ago front and back to the stiffer fast dumping yet.
2. Rebound to half way (12 clicks) slower than last year
3. Adjusting the slow dumping -1
4. Raising the JRZ nitrogen PSI from 200 to 250
5. Practicing going slow on the straights and fast in the corners on high gear to learn momentum
6. Practicing with the DSC off, going a bit slower (1:38-1:40) to feel the car better.

We can call this "learning to trust the Hoosier grip" but the real issue is "how" do you learn to trust the grip?

You can also say in reasonable certainty that after three years I am a better driver, but again what are the specifics that make one a better driver? Most people I have met at the track are still trying to break 1:42s

The next thing I am trying is to adjust the sway bars. I moved the rear Hotckins to the third and stiffer hole to see if I can get the rear to swing out a bit better. The fronts are still on the third hole which is second softest. I may move it to the second (stiffer) hole but not before I see what the rear is doing.

It is all very interesting to figure out....
Learning is certainly not linear and tires are only one piece of it. Good to see you're making continued progress.
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      09-16-2019, 01:22 AM   #10302
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interesting read. i haven't seen these applied on any exhausts (that i'm aware of) on our cars.
https://nasaspeed.news/tech/engine/t...-of-an-engine/
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      09-16-2019, 01:11 PM   #10303
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interesting read. i haven't seen these applied on any exhausts (that i'm aware of) on our cars.
https://nasaspeed.news/tech/engine/t...-of-an-engine/
Ha, HyTech! I remember them from my Integra days. They made some absolutely amazing headers and exhausts -- real engineering there, not just a bunch of tubes welded together. Glad to see they're still around (or at least that they were in 2015).
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      09-16-2019, 05:03 PM   #10304
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They are 15 minutes away. I wonder what they would think of our headers...
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      09-16-2019, 05:06 PM   #10305
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Has anyone used Raybestos ST43 pads? I need something a little bit lower torque than my current Hawk DTC-60 setup. I'm getting into the ABS too quickly which is just killing my ability to modulate. Even with these huge tires, they're still not a race tire so I think I'm overwhelming them.
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      09-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #10306
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I have used st43's, but not hawk 60's so I can't directly compare them. They were a decent pad, but not my favorite (dsuno). I did like then better than the ds1.11 though.
I had the perception that they ran really hot and were hard on the rotors though...

Have you tried cobalt yet? I really liked the xr1's, but they didn't last long for me with mdm on.
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      09-16-2019, 06:34 PM   #10307
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Quote:
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I have used st43's, but not hawk 60's so I can't directly compare them. They were a decent pad, but not my favorite (dsuno). I did like then better than the ds1.11 though.
I had the perception that they ran really hot and were hard on the rotors though...

Have you tried cobalt yet? I really liked the xr1's, but they didn't last long for me with mdm on.
Never used Cobalt. What do they have with more moderate torque? Looking at their reference table, it seems to indicate that the XR2 is similar in performance to the DTC-60 so I guess I'd want the XR3? Those are like $525 for the front axle, ouch.


So far have gotten two different answers from my "brake guys":

KNS told me to try the ST43 because it's a little bit lower friction but still gives good life. They have used it on cars with street tires and didn't experience ABS intervention. I asked about the DS2500 and he said no, that's a street pad (I disagree, it's a hybrid). Kinda pricey at $400 for the front axle though.

Zeckhausen suggested going back to a hybrid pad like the DS2500, and that I should just monitor consumption. I had actually used them after I got the car and found them to be decent -- no fade and consumption on par with the Hawks. Ended up dumping them because the Hawks were cheaper. The Ferodos are about $300 for the front axle and have come down a bit in price it seems.
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Last edited by dparm; 09-16-2019 at 06:40 PM..
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      09-16-2019, 07:13 PM   #10308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Never used Cobalt. What do they have with more moderate torque? Looking at their reference table, it seems to indicate that the XR2 is similar in performance to the DTC-60 so I guess I'd want the XR3? Those are like $525 for the front axle, ouch.


So far have gotten two different answers from my "brake guys":

KNS told me to try the ST43 because it's a little bit lower friction but still gives good life. They have used it on cars with street tires and didn't experience ABS intervention. I asked about the DS2500 and he said no, that's a street pad (I disagree, it's a hybrid). Kinda pricey at $400 for the front axle though.

Zeckhausen suggested going back to a hybrid pad like the DS2500, and that I should just monitor consumption. I had actually used them after I got the car and found them to be decent -- no fade and consumption on par with the Hawks. Ended up dumping them because the Hawks were cheaper. The Ferodos are about $300 for the front axle and have come down a bit in price it seems.
How about a PFC-08 (not sure if they changed the numbering). But more of an endurance pad. You get the benefit of longer life as well.
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      09-16-2019, 07:47 PM   #10309
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How about a PFC-08 (not sure if they changed the numbering). But more of an endurance pad. You get the benefit of longer life as well.
PFC makes NOTHING for my caliper (which is shared with the CTS-V, Camaro, R35 GT-R, some AMGs, and an Aston). I've talked with their tech guys twice in two years and they just don't give a fuck. They make too much money off you guys and the Porsche race teams to care. I found something pretty close by browsing their catalog, but it's too thick and would need to be shaved down. It was like $500+ plus whatever that shaving cost would be. No thanks.

For $525 I can go get Pagid RS19/29 in a direct fit. But what's the point of an endurance pad in this situation? Those are designed for sustained high temps. I don't have a heat issue here.
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      09-16-2019, 07:52 PM   #10310
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PFC makes NOTHING for my caliper (which is shared with the CTS-V, Camaro, R35 GT-R, some AMGs, and an Aston). I've talked with their tech guys twice in two years and they just don't give a fuck. They make too much money off you guys and the Porsche race teams to care. I found something pretty close by browsing their catalog, but it's too thick and would need to be shaved down. It was like $500+ plus whatever that shaving cost would be. No thanks.

For $525 I can go get Pagid RS19/29 in a direct fit. But what's the point of an endurance pad in this situation? Those are designed for sustained high temps. I don't have a heat issue here.
Ferodo DS1.11
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      09-16-2019, 07:54 PM   #10311
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Ferodo DS1.11
Again, explain to me why I want an endurance pad here. I'm not having issues with overheating pads or excessive consumption. Is a $525 endurance pad going to last 50% longer than the $300 Hawk?
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      09-16-2019, 08:02 PM   #10312
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Quote:
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Never used Cobalt. What do they have with more moderate torque? Looking at their reference table, it seems to indicate that the XR2 is similar in performance to the DTC-60 so I guess I'd want the XR3? Those are like $525 for the front axle, ouch.
its been over a year since i've used the cobalts, so some of the details are fuzzy, so i'm going off of remembered thoughts of the time. i'm not sure if brake torque and/or bite is synonymous with pads being easier to modulate... i feel like i've been happy with the dsuno and cf cr1's bite and torque, but brake release and modulation is not a complaint of mine. now, i'm typically on nt01's, so a bit more grip than a street tire.
i run ds2500's on the street. great pads. i have ran them as backups at the track and they hold up pretty good, but these ap j-hook rotors eat them up fast in track conditions.

at the very least, pick up the phone and speak with andie at cobalt friction. he's a stand up guy and will be able to point you in the right direction based on what you're describing what you want out of a pad.
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      09-16-2019, 08:06 PM   #10313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Again, explain to me why I want an endurance pad here. I'm not having issues with overheating pads or excessive consumption. Is a $525 endurance pad going to last 50% longer than the $300 Hawk?
ds1.11's didn't last much longer than dsunos did for me... maybe 1/2 day longer, i didn't care for them.
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      09-16-2019, 08:52 PM   #10314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Never used Cobalt. What do they have with more moderate torque? Looking at their reference table, it seems to indicate that the XR2 is similar in performance to the DTC-60 so I guess I'd want the XR3? Those are like $525 for the front axle, ouch.


So far have gotten two different answers from my "brake guys":

KNS told me to try the ST43 because it's a little bit lower friction but still gives good life. They have used it on cars with street tires and didn't experience ABS intervention. I asked about the DS2500 and he said no, that's a street pad (I disagree, it's a hybrid). Kinda pricey at $400 for the front axle though.

Zeckhausen suggested going back to a hybrid pad like the DS2500, and that I should just monitor consumption. I had actually used them after I got the car and found them to be decent -- no fade and consumption on par with the Hawks. Ended up dumping them because the Hawks were cheaper. The Ferodos are about $300 for the front axle and have come down a bit in price it seems.
I agree with the brake guy. DS2500 is a street pad. Hybrid is a fallacy. Doesn't exist. Only people that say that are vendors/salespeople and inexperienced forum people repeating the same thing like a parrot.

I will not be using PFC buit have the same calipers as you. IIRC 4362.08.19.44 fits? FWIW, GTR IS the thicker pad. All the rest while the same shape... are thinner.
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      09-16-2019, 09:17 PM   #10315
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I agree with the brake guy. DS2500 is a street pad. Hybrid is a fallacy. Doesn't exist. Only people that say that are vendors/salespeople and inexperienced forum people repeating the same thing like a parrot.

I will not be using PFC buit have the same calipers as you. IIRC 4362.08.19.44 fits? FWIW, GTR IS the thicker pad. All the rest while the same shape... are thinner.
I had to go look it up in an old email. The one that's close is for a Nissan GT-R, which is indeed part 4362.

The overall length is correct (~189mm) and the annulus is very close (64mm versus my 65mm). The biggest hold-up seems to be pad thickness which is ~19mm, whereas mine typically calls for ~16.5mm.

Pro Systems in Mooresville, NJ can do it. Porterfield probably can too. But for this to be even remotely cost effective you'd probably need to do 3 or more sets at once. But those are $620 each! Unless those literally last twice as long as the Hawks, no way is that worth it.


Also, I have run the 2500 on track. It's fine, but I certainly wouldn't do it on something with tons of power and R comps. Worked on my M3's StopTech kit, my old S4, and even on the Corvette.
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      09-16-2019, 09:44 PM   #10316
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DS2500 is fine if not pushing or a relatively light car ie clubman/hot hatch etc.

If there's at least 2mm from the face of the disc to the pad, it might be ok yet grabby. If other people with a GS get away fitting Ti plates to 16.5(16.6mm) pads, it'll be fine without them of course.

Audis are heavy, in fact experience in that is the car that told me DS2500 is pretty "meh". Incredibly narrow window where they really only shone on moderately hard street driving. Nothing more, nothing less.

Funnily enough I will use them again in conjunction with DSUno for ease of bedding. I don't drive the car long or high speed enough to bed them in prior. I'd rather DS Sport if it was a feasible option though.
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      09-16-2019, 09:55 PM   #10317
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Again, explain to me why I want an endurance pad here. I'm not having issues with overheating pads or excessive consumption. Is a $525 endurance pad going to last 50% longer than the $300 Hawk?
Yeah, they will. And it'll stop just as good, with better modulation and on/off characteristics. Give em a try.
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      09-16-2019, 09:56 PM   #10318
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Yeah, they will. And it'll stop just as good, with better modulation and on/off characteristics. Give em a try.
Are you going to reimburse me if I don't like them?
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