F80 or E90...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by cjm41

The V6 does ABSOLUTELY nothing for me. Growing up in the US and being primarily American car nuts in school, we made fun of the kids with the V6 mustang or Camaro. V6s were the "girl versions" of the car.

I'm also European and I have yet to see a single 6 cylinder engine (whether opposing, V or inline) that sounds good. They all sound like crap.

The V8 sounds wonderful.

In Europe I see more of an advantage in faster cars, as you can actually use that every now and then... here on the street even my E46M3 felt pretty fast if I redlined a couple gears

[ChiBimmer]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Half the mileage with only $3k price difference? The lower mileage would be a no brainer for me.

I agree with you about $23k for 50k miles being a better value than $20k 100k miles . I was replying to someone who felt he needed to spend $35k to get a quality E9x. I should have left out the 100k mike car which just made things confusing.

[sdbmwcoding]

Originally Posted by ChiBimmer

I agree with you about $23k for 50k miles being a better value than $20k 100k miles . I was replying to someone who felt he needed to spend $35k to get a quality E9x. I should have left out the 100k mike car which just made things confusing.

Please post up a good spec E9x M3 with 50k miles for 23k. My point is the value of the M3 is not worth it anymore when f8x's are so similar in pricing. Lower mileage M3's are too expensive in the market now. I'm seeing 70-80k mile m3's for 30k now

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by sd*********

Please post up a good spec E9x M3 with 50k miles for 23k. My point is the value of the M3 is not worth it anymore when f8x's are so similar in pricing. Lower mileage M3's are too expensive in the market now. I'm seeing 70-80k mile m3's for 30k now

There are a TON of F8X M3/4s. I could open a window right now, throw a rock, and hit like 3 of them without looking.

The e9X while still not a limited run, were produced in lower numbers and have begun spending more time in garages than in parking lots of people's jobs.

I don't even think it's reasonable to compare the two cars. You couldn't pay me to drive an F8x but I pay a ton for maintenance and fuel to drive an E9x.

I don't believe the e9x are ready to climb in value again yet, but the F8x will continue to depreciate and be worth less, I'm general, than the e9x within the next few years.

Nobody is saying "they can bury me in my F8x I'm never selling it" but that's increasingly a common feeing among e9x owners and that's what will ultimately make them more valuable. My car, and many other e9x M3s will never go back on the market and demand will supersede supply.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm also European and I have yet to see a single 6 cylinder engine (whether opposing, V or inline) that sounds good. They all sound like crap.

The V8 sounds wonderful.

In Europe I see more of an advantage in faster cars, as you can actually use that every now and then... here on the street even my E46M3 felt pretty fast if I redlined a couple gears

Nah you are just too American. Them V8s got you good

My S50B32 sounded alright but it sounds amazing if coupled with straight pipe.

Mine:

Straight pipe on utbe:

[wfdeacon88]

It's very cheap to tune the F80 and add 100+ WHP stock car as everyone knows.. I have limited knowledge on the F80's reliability, but I've heard about some big issues with multiple critical engine components on tuned (and stock) F80's that make the them a terrifying used car prospect. NA vs BMW first gen turbo M3.. I'll take the V8 every day of the week

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

It's very cheap to tune the F80 and add 100+ WHP stock car as everyone knows.. I have limited knowledge on the F80's reliability, but I've heard about some big issues with multiple critical engine components on tuned (and stock) F80's that make the them a terrifying used car prospect. NA vs BMW first gen turbo M3.. I'll take the V8 every day of the week

The S55 has proven to be very reliable indeed, certainly no less reliable than the S65...

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by cjm41

There are a TON of F8X M3/4s. I could open a window right now, throw a rock, and hit like 3 of them without looking.

The e9X while still not a limited run, were produced in lower numbers and have begun spending more time in garages than in parking lots of people's jobs.

I don't even think it's reasonable to compare the two cars. You couldn't pay me to drive an F8x but I pay a ton for maintenance and fuel to drive an E9x.

I don't believe the e9x are ready to climb in value again yet, but the F8x will continue to depreciate and be worth less, I'm general, than the e9x within the next few years.

Nobody is saying "they can bury me in my F8x I'm never selling it" but that's increasingly a common feeing among e9x owners and that's what will ultimately make them more valuable. My car, and many other e9x M3s will never go back on the market and demand will supersede supply.

Go read the F80 forums, you would be surprised. Lots of people moved from the e9x and consider it a massive upgrade. There seems to be a very vocal minority who want to go back. Its also a very vocal minority who 'want to be buried in it', the reality is most people owned one for a few years and moved on.

Given there are 25,000 E9x M3's in North America alone I think production numbers are a moot point. Its really not hard to find an e9x if you want one.

As for V6 cars and the like being 'girly', thats just a load of macho American BS. American cars have sorely lagged behind the rest of the world until the last 5 years and thats being generous. BMW made one sporting V8 (the S65) and it's better than anything thats come from Detroit. Sure a Shelby GT 350 is nice (i've driven one, it was a riot), but it's a 25k rental car platform with an interior made from melted down slurpee cups and and engine with chocolate internals. It's a flat plane crank V8 and is properly special, however most of the American stuff is lazy push rod V8's that splutter to 6K RPM.

Case in point - Take the new Corvette, go watch the Smoking Tire one take. it sounds like a wheezy Silverado and can barely hit 6.5k RPM.

There is a reason people lust after Skylines, NSX's, old Impreza's, straight 6 BMW's, air-cooled Porsches. No one cares about the last 3 generations of Mustangs or Corvettes because they are cheap disposable poorly engineered garbage.

[wfdeacon88]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The S55 has proven to be very reliable indeed, certainly no less reliable than the S65...

I mean, that's an extremely misleading statement based on the dozens and dozens of articles and stories all over the place.... nice try!

"For those of you who drive your BMWs hard, take them to the track, or have bolt-on performance products and software upgrades, the crank hub design can spell a near-certain demise for your engine."
https://movementmotorsports.com/2019...ing-time-bomb/

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Go read the F80 forums, you would be surprised. Lots of people moved from the e9x and consider it a massive upgrade. There seems to be a very vocal minority who want to go back. Its also a very vocal minority who 'want to be buried in it', the reality is most people owned one for a few years and moved on.

Given there are 25,000 E9x M3's in North America alone I think production numbers are a moot point. Its really not hard to find an e9x if you want one.

As for V6 cars and the like being 'girly', thats just a load of macho American BS. American cars have sorely lagged behind the rest of the world until the last 5 years and thats being generous. BMW made one sporting V8 (the S65) and it's better than anything thats come from Detroit. Sure a Shelby GT 350 is nice (i've driven one, it was a riot), but it's a 25k rental car platform with an interior made from melted down slurpee cups and and engine with chocolate internals. It's a flat plane crank V8 and is properly special, however most of the American stuff is lazy push rod V8's that splutter to 6K RPM.

Case in point - Take the new Corvette, go watch the Smoking Tire one take. it sounds like a wheezy Silverado and can barely hit 6.5k RPM.

There is a reason people lust after Skylines, NSX's, old Impreza's, straight 6 BMW's, air-cooled Porsches. No one cares about the last 3 generations of Mustangs or Corvettes because they are cheap disposable poorly engineered garbage.

Not sure if you're trying to convince me of any of this because I don't need it. I haven't driven an American car since I was a teenager because they're piles of shit and I'll double down to the third power your 5 years. Foreign cars started surpassing American cars in the late 70s.

America has tried to make a comeback, and while some of the newer high end cars feel nice, they'll feel like crap by the time they turn 50k miles.

The point I was trying to make was, a few generations got into Chevy or ford or mopar because of their fathers or grandfathers, and that's where the perception of the V6 being a girls car in high school came from.

Also- America has a "macho" problem but I'm not going to get into a cultural and sociological discussion right now. I didn't come up with it, I don't perpetuate it as an adult, I was simply pointing out how it is and why many felt that way.

Where we disagree is with the F8x. Is it an upgrade? Of course. On paper. It's a better car. Period.

The e36 is an upgrade from the e30, doesn't make the e36 more desirable or more expensive.

This discussion popped up in a Facebook group the other day, there was something like 80 e9x M3s for sale in the US right now, there were like 500 F8x for sale. I haven't looked myself but It wouldn't be hard to roughly verify those numbers.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

I mean, that's an extremely misleading statement based on the dozens and dozens of articles and stories all over the place.... nice try!

"For those of you who drive your BMWs hard, take them to the track, or have bolt-on performance products and software upgrades, the crank hub design can spell a near-certain demise for your engine."
https://movementmotorsports.com/2019...ing-time-bomb/

Not really. By your flawed logic every S65 must be a 'ticking time bomb' as well. You just posted an infomercial of some random completely unknown shop trying to sell you an install. Thats how they make money. There are very few reports of stock cars spinning the crank hub. As for track work, the S55 has significantly better cooling than the S65 out of the box. You can pound an S55 round all day in 100f+ temps and the needle won't move. Try doing that in an S65.

As for tuned cars having issues, want to increase power? Pay to play. That doesn't make the car unreliable. In the same way supercharging an S65 without doing the bearings wouldn't be prudent either. The difference being when an S65 blows its toast, if an S55 spins its crank hub it can be rebuilt for way less than the cost of a new engine.

[wfdeacon88]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Not really. By your flawed logic every S65 must be a 'ticking time bomb' as well. You just posted an infomercial of some random completely unknown shop trying to sell you an install. Thats how they make money. There are very few reports of stock cars spinning the crank hub. As for track work, the S55 has significantly better cooling than the S65 out of the box. You can pound an S55 round all day in 100f+ temps and the needle won't move. Try doing that in an S65.

As for tuned cars having issues, want to increase power? Pay to play. That doesn't make the car unreliable. In the same way supercharging an S65 without doing the bearings wouldn't be prudent either. The difference being when an S65 blows its toast, if an S55 spins its crank hub it can be rebuilt for way less than the cost of a new engine.

I believe it costs $1k or less to tune an S55 to 500+ whp... and $10k+ to do that on an S65, including a lot of hardware. The main point was related to the ease of tuning and how it could be more likely an F80 has been taken beyond it's limits in stock form by a higher % of owners. On a turbo with all that power, I wouldn't want to be a second+ owner not knowing what could go wrong.

[pbonsalb]

A new 340i will beat an E9xM3 to 60 and is as quick and fast or quicker and faster through the quarter mile. The 340i hangs with the F80M3 to 60 as well, but at least the F80M3 pulls away through the quarter mile.

[ChiBimmer]

Originally Posted by sd*********

Please post up a good spec E9x M3 with 50k miles for 23k. My point is the value of the M3 is not worth it anymore when f8x's are so similar in pricing. Lower mileage M3's are too expensive in the market now. I'm seeing 70-80k mile m3's for 30k now

What's good vs bad spec? Differences seem pretty minimal to me. Year, color, edc, slicktop don't seem like big differences—to me. One's mileage may vary on these things.

[ChiBimmer]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

A new 340i will beat an E9xM3 to 60 and is as quick and fast or quicker and faster through the quarter mile. The 340i hangs with the F80M3 to 60 as well, but at least the F80M3 pulls away through the quarter mile.

E9x m3 is not a drag car. I believe these claims of straight line speed are also true of E9x 335i with a tune and maybe a breather mod.

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by ChiBimmer

E9x m3 is not a drag car. I believe these claims of straight line speed are also true of E9x 335i with a tune and maybe a breather mod.

I think people use the quarter mile times because it's simple. I've never really understood its purpose. Yes, it's a measurement of speed but it's pretty irrelevant to cars like this.

It seems like a major disservice and extreme over-simplification to reduce any M car to 10-12 seconds of straight line driving.

I could buy a $2500 fox body mustang and put used $2000 supercharger on it, a cheap set of drag radials, and obliterate any car mentioned in this thread going straight in an amount of time that can literally be counted on fingers.

Of course, this would best be accomplished while sporting an aerodynamic mullet, but I digress.

[pbonsalb]

I was referring to a stock 340i. If you want to mod it, it could out handle an E9xM3 as well as out perform it in a straight line.

99% of my driving is on reasonably straight roads where I might run into a stock 340i that could show me its tail lights. You guys that live on mountains, in canyons, on race tracks and in the autobahn are lucky — you could probably eventually put some distance on the 340i. Unless of course it was modded — Bimmerworld modded a 335i years ago to equal an E9xM3 on the track.

[wfdeacon88]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I was referring to a stock 340i. If you want to mod it, it could out handle an E9xM3 as well as out perform it in a straight line.

99% of my driving is on reasonably straight roads where I might run into a stock 340i that could show me its tail lights. You guys that live on mountains, in canyons, on race tracks and in the autobahn are lucky — you could probably eventually put some distance on the 340i. Unless of course it was modded — Bimmerworld modded a 335i years ago to equal an E9xM3 on the track.

nobody cares about how fast or whatever some 340/335 is modded.. literally nobody cares. They are shit.

[pbonsalb]

Ok. It is good you don’t mind getting spanked by one. I am not an M snob, though, and appreciate fast cars. I even appreciate the guy with the mustang you think is so far below you, who works with what he has and makes a fast car despite his limited budget.

[wfdeacon88]

I'm not a snob about these cars. They aren't expensive to buy. I also have no issue that other cars are faster.. I just don't think it matters and most E9x m3 owners don't care about certain modded faster 335is.... its been beaten to death over the years and just doesn't matter.

[pbonsalb]

That is what the loser of the race often says. Well, I have an M badge on my car and it has better feel and sounds better. Or they won’t give the guy a friendly run in the first place. Most bought for the M status. To be fair, a few get their thrills on the track, which is great. In my 9 years and 70k miles with the E90M3, I have been to the track only once and dragstrip only once, but that is still more than most owners — who never go.

[TomHudson]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I was referring to a stock 340i. If you want to mod it, it could out handle an E9xM3 as well as out perform it in a straight line.

99% of my driving is on reasonably straight roads where I might run into a stock 340i that could show me its tail lights. You guys that live on mountains, in canyons, on race tracks and in the autobahn are lucky — you could probably eventually put some distance on the 340i. Unless of course it was modded — Bimmerworld modded a 335i years ago to equal an E9xM3 on the track.

My supercharged E36 M3 would out perform the 340, but I don’t miss it.