Won ebay auction at 60K for E90 M3, BMW of Lincoln refusing to honor

DailyYeah · 03-24-2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX7owner

Mr. Yeah,
Most reputable lawyers will clearly spell out that they are *not* giving
legal advice when posting in a forum such as this. If you are a lawyer,
and you're claiming to "present the law", you better be darn sure you're
right (and I don't mean "because I said so" right).

Frankly, I think the new posters who are sympathetic to the dealership
have a bit of a smell about them...

[yes, I'm new; not a lawyer; and I'm disgusted by Husker's behavior]

No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just presenting what is in the law, which is not set in stone.

imafrk · 03-24-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

You're making your own law based on ethics. This isn't how contract law works.

It says it under UCC rules explicitly that if there isn't "no reserve" then it has a reserve; i'm not omitting anything.

UCC rules do not supersede agreements that two parties entered into by a third party in this case Ebay is the venue and you gotta sign up and agree to Their terms before anything happens

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Ok, even if it isn't an auction based sale. Read the terms of acceptance.

WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CANCEL ANY BIDS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON.

Game over, this isn't a contract;therefore, cannot be taken to court.

and this crap about the we reserve the right to cancel any bids escape clause... Welp I agree w/ you there. He bid, they never canceled it. Auction ends he won. why are you ref. general contract law between people that agree to All the terms beforehand.

The Peregrinus · 03-24-2008, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samifumi

I am not a licensed attorney in the state of Nebraska, but I am in Texas. The Uniform Commercial Code has been adopted by every state in the United States (but for Louisiana), and this is simply a breach of contract, as most of you guys have noticed. An eBay contract is a legally enforceable contract, and the dealership should have delegated the authority and responsibility to list the M3 to an employee with knowledge and experience setting the terms. Salespeople, even those who do it online, have the vested authority to make sales, and thus the company that owns the dealership will be held responsible for the acts of their agents.

I wish I was in Nebraska. I would do it just for fun. I might even throw in a Deceptive Trade Practice claim, on which there would be treble damages and attorney's fees awarded. Throw in the words "Deceptive Trade" in your next conversation. Nebraska has a Uniform Deceptive Trade Practices Act.

87-302. (a) A person engages in a deceptive trade practice when, in the course of his or her business, vocation, or occupation, he or she:
(9) Advertises goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised;

With regard to the BBB, they are really just an Alternative Dispute Resolution mechanism. They'll mediate your dispute, but it's not necessarily binding on the dealership. The dealership will only jeopardize their membership with the BBB if it turns in your favor and they do not honor the resolution (I do not know how much that means to them). I would recommend, if you have a mediation, that you go in fully prepared.

As another licensed TX attorney I mostly concur. . .with this caveat - don't even bother with BBB or AG or anything else that people have been mentioning. Just go down to the county courthouse and file a law suit - might cost you $100 or $200 - court fees that are recoverable as well. The law is well settled on this - you will win the difference between the contract price and the market value of the car - about 8K. If you were in Texas - I'd go ahead and throw in DTPA as leverage - but that's probably a loser (but they wouldn't want to risk losing because possibly subject to up to treble damages). Yeah, you can go to mediation and split the baby - but I'd say in this case - screw 'em, OPs case is rock solid.

DailyYeah · 03-24-2008, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xcellere

I've been studying contract law for some time now at UCLA. The element of the TOS you're referring to is the "We reserve the right to cancel bids at any time" clause. As I said, that's only when the auction is active. Still don't believe me? Straight from eBay's mouth:

"There is no way to cancel an auction listing or a bid once the auction has ended and a winning bid has occurred. Regardless of your intent, once an auction listing closes and a bidder wins your item or service, you're contractually bound as an eBay seller to accept payment and deliver unless one of the following is true:

* It's a real estate auction. Since eBay real estate auctions (listings for land, investment property, or housing) are non-binding, a seller is not required to sell real estate to the highest bidder even when one exists.

* The other party's account is suspended. Since no eBay member is required to complete a transaction with a member whose account is suspended, a seller need not complete a transaction if the buyer or winning bidder is suspended from eBay once the listing is complete but before shipment has occurred.

* Your listing featured a reserve price. Sellers are not required to sell to the high bidder on an auction listing if there was a reserve price associated with the listing and the reserve price was not met."

So Ebay makes the law now? Didn't know that ebay can force somebody to pay up. If that's your only argument try taking it to the courthouse. This is your logic, "because a 3rd party said so, I have to pay up".

Like i said read the UCC code about auctions. That's more informative than anything ebay will give you.

kingdaviswaco · 03-24-2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xcellere

I've been studying contract law for some time now at UCLA. The element of the TOS you're referring to is the "We reserve the right to cancel bids at any time" clause. As I said, that's only when the auction is active. Still don't believe me? Straight from eBay's mouth:

"There is no way to cancel an auction listing or a bid once the auction has ended and a winning bid has occurred. Regardless of your intent, once an auction listing closes and a bidder wins your item or service, you're contractually bound as an eBay seller to accept payment and deliver unless one of the following is true:

* It's a real estate auction. Since eBay real estate auctions (listings for land, investment property, or housing) are non-binding, a seller is not required to sell real estate to the highest bidder even when one exists.

* The other party's account is suspended. Since no eBay member is required to complete a transaction with a member whose account is suspended, a seller need not complete a transaction if the buyer or winning bidder is suspended from eBay once the listing is complete but before shipment has occurred.

* Your listing featured a reserve price. Sellers are not required to sell to the high bidder on an auction listing if there was a reserve price associated with the listing and the reserve price was not met."

Dang straight! Thanks for bringing this out!

DailyYeah · 03-24-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imafrk

UCC rules do not supersede agreements that two parties entered into by a third party in this case Ebay is the venue and you gotta sign up and agree to Their terms before anything happens

and this crap about the we reserve the right to cancel any bids escape clause... Welp I agree w/ you there. He bid, they never canceled it. Auction ends he won. why are you ref. general contract law between people that agree to All the terms beforehand.

let me answer your second part. They agree to all terms beforehand, correct! Because they agree the seller can cancel ANY TIME.

Tell me whats the difference between a regalur auction and an Ebay one: UCC code covers auctions and explains what the options are for an offeree. Show me some proof that UCC doesn't apply to 3rd party? Ebay isn't an auction?

CrownSeven · 03-24-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Yes it can, look at the TOS: It clearly says that seller can opt out any time.

You're making it sound like Ebay is selling the car to that guy. Anyways how can eBay enforce everything. Businesses, make their TOS bulletproof to avoid issues like this.

Read up on some contract law then get back to me. I don't feel like repeating myself, because I've stated it several times.

A. It's either a contract, and the buyer has to follow the TOS
B. It' s not a contract, seller doesn't have to do anything. Buyer can't take legal action.

Sounds like YOU need to do some research.

A seller may cancel the item listing any time BEFORE the listing ends:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/motors-end-early.html

BUT if the item ends, and there is a succesfull bidder, then the 2 enter into a CONTRACT.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...rformance.html

If ebay does not enforce these rules, then what the heck is the point of using EBAY at all? These rules are there bread and butter. Who do you think they will side with?

The dealership is in the wrong BIG TIME. If it was an honest mistake - oh well - life sucks, now pay up.

normtrum · 03-24-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Auctions are by default have a reserve, meaning you a seller can refuse to sell.

Because this auction was a buy now there was not anything that said "No Reserve", therefore by default it had a reserve.

You need to revisit this comment from the original post in what is now a very long thread. Not only did the dealer choose not to utilize the "reserve" option in this particular case.....they used it as an advertising point.

The car was advertised on e-bay as "NO RESERVE"....in caps. That whole point you were making about a "default reserve" is nonsense.

"The car advertises its title in CAPS “LOWEST PRICE ON EBAY”. The auction started at 60,000 and had a BUY IT NOW for 66926 K. NO RESERVE."

DailyYeah · 03-24-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laszlo

I would take this back if I was you.

I said this and got my ass handed to me and almost left this site for good.

I think eBay blows anyway. Too many horror stories to add up and eBay should get off their cyber asses and help the OP out and also the dealership and just seal the deal.

Yeah, I'm done here. I don't really feel like repeating myself. I left my mark on my thread and maybe somebody will recognize that it's the correct way. Maybe some people will jump off the bandwagon and realize that although somethings might be unethic they aren't illegal.

If you want to argue ethics, whatever. I'm just saying theres a low chance this incident will achieve positive results in a court.

And for the link in my signature, that's my blog

I hope you guys stop by sometime.

Honestly, I really didn't mean to upset you guys: It's all in good fun saying your views on things and predicting what might happen.

Ya'll have a great night

DJ9 · 03-24-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

What's the deal? Laws might not be unfair, but we have to respect them. Even if this issue is unethical, we have to acknowledge the way it should be handled legally.

I'm not taking sides here; I'm just presenting the facts and what the law says.

Hmm, in your video, did you say you are majoring in Financing or Finance? Sorry, but your lisp distorted the sound.

It would appear to me that you are on our forum, to merely attract attention to your website.

Please stop quoting the Uniform Commercial Code, unless you are a practicing attorney; which you are NOT. Lastly, please get a proper haircut prior to producing any further video correspondence.

Quote from your site:

"I’ll scavenge the internet, looking for most interesting things known to mankind, like a ravenous squirrel looks for nuts. This site is guaranteed to satisfy your curiosity for everything life has to offer and more."

kingdaviswaco · 03-24-2008, 12:15 AM

Look, I'm no lawyer, but I think the OP has a very good case. Regardless, the key thing here is that he deserves the car. I'll send a letter to the local paper, I'll call the dealership, I'll do whatever I can to bring negative publicity to the lowlife dealership if they don't honor this agreement. Heck, I'd even send Tom Osborne a note and ask what he thinks of the antics of the "official dealership for Cornhusker football."

The thread's been somewhat hijacked by the Yeah guy, but hopefully he's gone. Now let's see if the dude can't get his car, as he should.

shanks · 03-24-2008, 12:16 AM

DailyYeah, you are completely wrong. I have no idea where you learnt your law from (what are your credentials? None, judging from your posts). Your facile interpretation of contract law is baffling.

An auction does not have to specify a reserve in order to be valid or legally binding.

>there was not anything that said "No Reserve", therefore by default it had a reserve.

What?? Where are your brains, you idiot? The absence of a reserve price clearly establishes that no reserve was enacted.

>That would mean buyer can refuse to sell. Does that make sense?

What?? The buyer can refuse to sell??? Are you even paying attention? Run back to your little blog.

>It fails the acceptance rule to be considered a valid agreement; therefore, it isn't a contract.

Bzzzzzt, boy your head sure is full of sawdust, isn't it. So if I purchase a ticket for a film, and then leave before its conclusion, it's not a contract?? At the closing of the auction, the contract becomes binding: invitation, offer, acceptance, capacity, legality, the whole bit. This is why they can modify terms while the auction is in session. The point of the reserve is so the seller can make a bid, one single bid, in their own favor. Have you read about promissory estoppel yet, or haven't you got to that chapter in "Lawyer-speak for Dummies".

This chap may not get his car, but he can most definitely begin proceedings against the seller (regardless of what you say).

joes3series · 03-24-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Hey, don't get worked up ok? I'm just here to present the law.

I'm saying this, even if it's a contract the offeree has to accept the TOS, which means the dealer can refuse to sell. If he doesn't want to follow the acceptance then it isn't a contract.

Sorry, if I made you tear up. :'(

I don't know which part of the law that came from. Basic offer and acceptance dictates once an offer is accepted, that's it. You are trying to say there may be a counteroffer from terms of service??(TOS??) I don't quite get that, but the acceptance is an acceptance. They could agree to amend the contract later, but it's not the case here.
As per the reserve issue, eBay puts users on constructive notice as to when there is or is not a reserve; I am pretty sure that works to avoid any sort of reserve issue.
I know to some extent you are trying to play devil's advocate, but ebay is no small company; they are a huge company and probably have a significant legal team that has done their research (or hired expensive outside counsel to do it for them). If simple trivialties such as the alleged no reserve price notice would override an auction, that would make many ebay auctions worthless, and investors and their due diligence teams would not have caused millions/billions of investment in ebay years ago-- their whole business model is based on the ability to facilitate people getting into contracts through their website. In sum, I really think they thought thru this already, many times. Though, I understand it can make for an interesting academic discussion.

CaribooLou · 03-24-2008, 12:18 AM

Wow, I read this story on autoblog. This is complete bullshit, the car should be yours. This is going on ls1tech.com

acidtrunks · 03-24-2008, 12:19 AM

DOOMA350 follow this link and pm me if this is one of the guys there,i found this link on some website called reddit.com apparently people from nebraska are familar with your friend link follows http://dealer2886.adpwebmarketing.co...ilCatania4.jpg

Los Angeles · 03-24-2008, 12:22 AM

Dooma, Its Fil! ^^^

lazyhobo · 03-24-2008, 12:22 AM

Just got here from Reddit, and of course, agree 100% with the OP.

Just one question about eBay Motors auctions, are they just like regular eBay auctions with respect to payment terms? Does the buyer have to send the seller payment within a limited amount of time?

It'd be great if this could be pursued through the proper means, but while this is going on, is it possible that in a week, the dealer can hit the OP with an "Item not paid" dispute?

The Peregrinus · 03-24-2008, 12:23 AM

[QUOTE=mooseman;2352135]Look, what did the guy lose? Did they take a deposit and hold it for 6 months before failing to complete the transaction? No, they called immediately and said they couldn't honor the price that it was a mistake.QUOTE]

What did he lose? He lost the benefit of the bargain. This is the very foundation of contract law.

He is absolutely entitled to recover for any breach of contract here. Mistake is no defense here. Mistake has be a reasonable objective mistake. The price was not so low that the OP was swooping in to take advantage of a mistake - he placed a legitimate bid at the starting price that the dealer posted.

zavigm · 03-24-2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ9

Hmm, in your video, did you say you are majoring in Financing or Finance? Sorry, but your lisp distorted the sound.

It would appear to me that you are on our forum, to merely attract attention to your website.

Please stop quoting the Uniform Commercial Code, unless you are a practicing attorney; which you are not. Lastly, please get a proper haircut prior to producing any further video correspondence.

Quote from your site:

"I’ll scavenge the internet, looking for most interesting things known to mankind, like a ravenous squirrel looks for nuts. This site is guaranteed to satisfy your curiosity for everything life has to offer and more."

Link to said video please?
thanks

DJ9 · 03-24-2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zavigm

Link to said video please?
thanks

we just gave this kid about 10K hits now.

http://dailyyeah.com/about/

acidtrunks · 03-24-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickc

Just saw the vid..

Apparently "Fil" has bigger problems than this eBay transaction... namely his haircut.

make sure you wait for the moneyshot at the end.

sweet baby jesus!

GOOD LORD ALMIGHTY I THOUGHT I HAD BAD HAIR...on a lighter note he does look especially greasy not that im judging the man but he doesnt look like a regular attendee to the weekly fight over who has the better invisible friend(church) man i cannot wait to see how this turns out

wtfcorp · 03-24-2008, 12:30 AM

Considering what I read so far in this thread and being a long time ebayer, it is obvious that this was no mistake of yours and ideally you need to be compensated for your time and effort. As far as how realistic it is to get the M3 for the advertized price (and I’m not trying to be discouraging in any way) it probably won’t happen. I have been in similar situations with large price items (100k to be exact) not cars but medical equipment that was promised for a discounted price from a large medical supply company to a local doctors office I worked with. The company had a legal finalized contract that both parties agreed to and last minute the company decided to back out. The doctor sued, the case went to trial, the doctor won (the company was ordered to supply the equipment at the agreed upon price) and what was the end result? The company appealed, and the case will still go before an appeals court. It seems to me that the case will be in litigation for a very long time before anything ever truly gets settled. I wish the doctor took my advice and went public with the matter like you are doing. You are hitting them where it hurts the most there wallet. By ruining their credibility you take business away from them, and there are no legal loopholes around that.
Good Luck, and whether your get your deal or not, just know you played a big role in preventing dealers like these from ignoring their responsibilities toward the consumer.

03-24-2008, 12:15 AM	#451
kingdaviswaco New Member 0 Rep 20 Posts Drives: Geo Metro Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Texas iTrader: (0)	Law or not, give him the car Look, I'm no lawyer, but I think the OP has a very good case. Regardless, the key thing here is that he deserves the car. I'll send a letter to the local paper, I'll call the dealership, I'll do whatever I can to bring negative publicity to the lowlife dealership if they don't honor this agreement. Heck, I'd even send Tom Osborne a note and ask what he thinks of the antics of the "official dealership for Cornhusker football." The thread's been somewhat hijacked by the Yeah guy, but hopefully he's gone. Now let's see if the dude can't get his car, as he should.
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:16 AM	#452
shanks Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: Nissan Skyline GTR Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	DailyYeah, you are completely wrong. I have no idea where you learnt your law from (what are your credentials? None, judging from your posts). Your facile interpretation of contract law is baffling. An auction does not have to specify a reserve in order to be valid or legally binding. >there was not anything that said "No Reserve", therefore by default it had a reserve. What?? Where are your brains, you idiot? The absence of a reserve price clearly establishes that no reserve was enacted. >That would mean buyer can refuse to sell. Does that make sense? What?? The buyer can refuse to sell??? Are you even paying attention? Run back to your little blog. >It fails the acceptance rule to be considered a valid agreement; therefore, it isn't a contract. Bzzzzzt, boy your head sure is full of sawdust, isn't it. So if I purchase a ticket for a film, and then leave before its conclusion, it's not a contract?? At the closing of the auction, the contract becomes binding: invitation, offer, acceptance, capacity, legality, the whole bit. This is why they can modify terms while the auction is in session. The point of the reserve is so the seller can make a bid, one single bid, in their own favor. Have you read about promissory estoppel yet, or haven't you got to that chapter in "Lawyer-speak for Dummies". This chap may not get his car, but he can most definitely begin proceedings against the seller (regardless of what you say).
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:18 AM	#454
CaribooLou Registered 0 Rep 2 Posts Drives: 1995 Pontiac Firebird Transam Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0)	Wow, I read this story on autoblog. This is complete bullshit, the car should be yours. This is going on ls1tech.com
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:19 AM	#455
acidtrunks Enlisted Member 0 Rep 49 Posts Drives: 93 honda accord Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: oklahoma city iTrader: (0)	DOOMA350 follow this link and pm me if this is one of the guys there,i found this link on some website called reddit.com apparently people from nebraska are familar with your friend link follows http://dealer2886.adpwebmarketing.co...ilCatania4.jpg
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:22 AM	#456
Los Angeles Steve Forte Rio 149 Rep 2,393 Posts Drives: 08' 328i Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: 90036 iTrader: (0)	Dooma, Its Fil! ^^^
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:22 AM	#457
lazyhobo Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: Ford Explorer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The West iTrader: (0)	Just got here from Reddit, and of course, agree 100% with the OP. Just one question about eBay Motors auctions, are they just like regular eBay auctions with respect to payment terms? Does the buyer have to send the seller payment within a limited amount of time? It'd be great if this could be pursued through the proper means, but while this is going on, is it possible that in a week, the dealer can hit the OP with an "Item not paid" dispute?
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:23 AM	#458
The Peregrinus New Member 0 Rep 7 Posts Drives: 328i - 07 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Texas iTrader: (0)	[QUOTE=mooseman;2352135]Look, what did the guy lose? Did they take a deposit and hold it for 6 months before failing to complete the transaction? No, they called immediately and said they couldn't honor the price that it was a mistake.QUOTE] What did he lose? He lost the benefit of the bargain. This is the very foundation of contract law. He is absolutely entitled to recover for any breach of contract here. Mistake is no defense here. Mistake has be a reasonable objective mistake. The price was not so low that the OP was swooping in to take advantage of a mistake - he placed a legitimate bid at the starting price that the dealer posted.
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:30 AM	#462
wtfcorp Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: Civic SI Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	Considering what I read so far in this thread and being a long time ebayer, it is obvious that this was no mistake of yours and ideally you need to be compensated for your time and effort. As far as how realistic it is to get the M3 for the advertized price (and I’m not trying to be discouraging in any way) it probably won’t happen. I have been in similar situations with large price items (100k to be exact) not cars but medical equipment that was promised for a discounted price from a large medical supply company to a local doctors office I worked with. The company had a legal finalized contract that both parties agreed to and last minute the company decided to back out. The doctor sued, the case went to trial, the doctor won (the company was ordered to supply the equipment at the agreed upon price) and what was the end result? The company appealed, and the case will still go before an appeals court. It seems to me that the case will be in litigation for a very long time before anything ever truly gets settled. I wish the doctor took my advice and went public with the matter like you are doing. You are hitting them where it hurts the most there wallet. By ruining their credibility you take business away from them, and there are no legal loopholes around that. Good Luck, and whether your get your deal or not, just know you played a big role in preventing dealers like these from ignoring their responsibilities toward the consumer.
	Appreciate 0