Tesla Model 3 Performance beats M3 at Thunderhill Raceway

[Moo]

Top Gear magazine has track tested the Tesla Model 3 Performance head to head against fossil fans’ favorite sports saloon, the BMW M3. The track times were conducted on the 2 mile Thunderhill Raceway Park West circuit, with the Tesla coming in a significant 2 seconds ahead of the (more expensive) BMW. Fossils must now accept all-round inferiority in the performance realm.

http://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/25/...nd-race-track/

But can TM3P do it more than once per 2 hrs?!

[pbonsalb]

I would guess 90% of M3 owners never drive their car flat out for more than a few seconds at a time, like a stop light race or highway pull. A few percent track their cars and would be frustrated with the limitations of battery power on the track. A few percent live near unpopulated canyons or mountains where they can do some track-like driving. But for most of us street drivers, the thrills are a few seconds at a time.

[fasternfaster]

I traded my M3 for a Tesla Model 3 performance. i can tell you that this car does NOT suffer from overheating. Search around a bit they can do pretty long track sessions and the limiting factor is the brakes on the car because they are street/performance Brembo brakes and not a ceramic rotor. Doing a 20-30 minute session is possible and it will not kill your entire battery.

Yes the power does go down with the state of charge, but it is still very very fast and its not going to feel like you are in limp mode. Thermal management has not been a problem for anyone.

[SAMM3Y]

Does the TM3P make cool artificial race car noises though? Or does the driver have to do that himself?

[Timujin]

This goes back to R/C car racing for me. Nitro R/C could run for long periods by doing quick pit stops for fuel. Electric was just as fun and often faster, but when it came time to charge it sucked waiting.

[hungryhippo]

Just watched the video today. The 2 mile track is a tight track with a few 2nd gear turns that really let the tesla shine. On a higher speed track, the m3 would win.
I did see a model 3 in person on the 2 mile track running consistent 1:28's doing full sessions which was pretty cool.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by Timujin

This goes back to R/C car racing for me. Nitro R/C could run for long periods by doing quick pit stops for fuel. Electric was just as fun and often faster, but when it came time to charge it sucked waiting.

Bringing me back to my childhood!

[JackieChiles]

Personally my thoughts are “who cares”.

That said, I’m sure this car will appeal to many

However, a silent, poorly styled, automatic only “sports car” has zero appeal to me. Zero. I will have gasoline powered cars for as long as I can, and once things go full electric I’m pretty sure m I’ll quit being a car guy.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

Personally my thoughts are “who cares”.

That said, I’m sure this car will appeal to many

However, a silent, poorly styled, automatic only “sports car” has zero appeal to me. Zero. I will have gasoline powered cars for as long as I can, and once things go full electric I’m pretty sure m I’ll quit being a car guy.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts. The idea of getting an electric car of any sort has never entered my mind. They are an interesting novelty.

[Richbot]

That was basically three standing-start tests.

But I think it's sortof a "no shit sherlock" concept that an AWD car with a 50-100 acceleration advantage will be easier to get the most out of than a RWD car that has to be danced on its (higher) limits around a racetrack.

Model 3 is good for about 15-20 minutes on track but still gets reduced power...it's just managed well so that there's no limp mode just a gradual loss of performance over the session. It's no longer a "half a lap and you're toast" situation like Model S was.

And obviously, for the average idiot, and in almost all real-world street situations, Model 3 is quicker than almost anything on the road. No waiting, wired directly into your brain acceleration with no traction issues.

If you haven't driven one yet, do. It's a really well-executed driver's car even if some of the hype around the company and some of the design and marketing choices are a little...uh...well...a lot... dumb.

I was driving around in a 3-series built in 1996 back in 2002. Model 3 came out last year and is better, *purely from a fun to drive and handling dynamics perspective* than the F3x 3/3-series (which I have also owned and driven half a dozen others), my E90335xi, my e46, and that E36. Tesla started selling "real" cars in 2013, when BMW had been building some form of the 3-series or its ancestors for 50 years. It's mind-blowing what they've managed to pull off from a technical standpoint, even if it was powered by a humdrum 2.0t the execution on braking, steering and damping/ride is just right smack in the middle of the bullseye for a small sport sedan.

For further proof of how amazing this car is dynamically, see recent SCCA B-Street national level autocross results. It's competing heads-up with the GT350, SS1LE, F8x and, often, winning, on teeny narrow wheels against cars with some of the biggest tires and wheels ever fitted to pony cars, with 450+hp, and all the bells and whistles the big 3 and the germans could think to throw at them. Sure, it's "just" autocross, but the pool of people who autocross is bigger by a factor of 10 than those who track or do club race.

Far from a "meh" car. It's a very high-performance car. And they haven't even plumbed the depths of what the chassis is capable of yet. Narrow wheels, smallish steel brakes, soft bumpstop-smashing springs, relatively high ride height, no extreme aero aids, no weight redux compared to the standard car available yet...the damn thing's roof is 100% glass ferchrissakes. A Model 3 Performance Type R OMG-edition would be a riot.

I too was a skeptic until I saw the results of this lovechild of Panasonic, Tesla, the American government and a bunch of hopes and dreams and unicorn farts for myself with my own four paws and two butt cheeks. It's an awesome car.

'Murica.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

Personally my thoughts are “who cares”.

That said, I’m sure this car will appeal to many

However, a silent, poorly styled, automatic only “sports car” has zero appeal to me. Zero. I will have gasoline powered cars for as long as I can, and once things go full electric I’m pretty sure m I’ll quit being a car guy.

Exactly


Call me when they can do one hour at a big boy track like the Glen at full power. And do that during 4 hours a day.

Right now apparently they can do 3 laps of a go kart track like Limerock before losing power. LOLZ.


People know I am a car guy and think I am somehow interested in these pieces of shit. I thoroughly enjoy when someone who is as far removed from 'performance driving' as an apple is from cinder block talks to me about 0-60 in 2.8 seconds. As if I give a shit. I have never used launch control on my E90 DCT and am totally uninterested in the 0-60 metric

[Richbot]

It's also significantly quicker than our cars 30-100...you know, the speeds you're at most often on a racetrack...time-trials are a thing, hillclimbs are a thing...autocross is a thing...Tesla's been making cars for just a bit more time than my oldest kid has been alive and they've already been building a very good powertrain for those applications in year 6. They designed it and ramped suppliers and production capacity in years 4-5 of being a bona-fide car company. Come on, that's amazing.

I club race wheel to wheel in an open cockpit car that runs similar times to a C5Z or similar on Hoosiers and can do it all day long. I have an E90 M3 I'm never going to sell, ever. But somehow I find the Model 3 exciting as a performance car.

Admit it you're dead inside and are just waiting to be buried

[Not Sure]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Call me when they can do one hour at a big boy track like the Glen at full power. And do that during 4 hours a day.

tbf...would an E9x M survive an hour like that without overheating? (or running out of gas?)

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by Not Sure

tbf...would an E9x M survive an hour like that without overheating? (or running out of gas?)

model 3 rod bearing failure rate is still 0.000000000%

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Not Sure

tbf...would an E9x M survive an hour like that without overheating? (or running out of gas?)

That's how I run my E90, and yeah, after the hour it does run out of gas, gluttonous bastard

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Richbot

model 3 rod bearing failure rate is still 0.000000000%

True, but a car built in a tent...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Richbot

It's also significantly quicker than our cars 30-100...you know, the speeds you're at most often on a racetrack..
Admit it you're dead inside and are just waiting to be buried

Which tracks do you go to that see those speeds? Sounds like a go cart track...


More in general on the topic, my skepticism is rooted in being an engineer. The amount of energy needed is simply too large for batteries. The day an electric car will be a workable track car is never, not while we use batteries the way they are today

[Richbot]

It's axiomatically false to say we are asking too much of the batteries though. Just look at the results and forget what's powering it. In the real fantasy world where you and I live as neighbors, let's say you and I both leave our houses at the same time headed for some fun motorsports activities 50 miles away, me with a full tank of electron in my in-laws' model 3 and you in your E92...we get to the first light and I can press the disappear button while you're still protecting your engine during warmup. My disappear button is better than yours below about 80mph, which is 10 above any speed limit in my area, and never ever requires anything but a thought to deploy unlike the sound and fury of the M3. And then when we get to the autocross, we both change wheels/tires and my car is in a significantly faster autocross class because it's too fast for F Street where the E9x plays. Model 3 can do an autocross event without charging, easily. Then we do the track day, I'll be parked twice as much as you, and if there's no 220 hookup or Supercharger close I'm boned, but hey, compromises are everywhere

The limitations are not insurmountable. They're not going to evaporate but they're certainly getting better and better. Charge times have been cut in half in half a decade, yada.

It's workable in the same way a Miata is workable. Compromised, but can be effective within the right constraints. I mean, JUST WAIT TILL THE PORSCHE HOMERS GET THEIR TAYCANS it's going to be really fun to pick those guys off at track days, lol

Trust me I used to feel the same way. Then I drove one and saw what friends are doing with them in real actual competition events

What I want to see now from Model 3 as a competition car:

- Somebody figures out how to cage one (probably has to be ship-in-a-bottle style, braced to/through the bulkheads to the subframe mounts to avoid punch-through of the landing pads through the floor to puncture/deform the battery)
- Glass roof delete
- Good corner worker documentation - this is handled through Tesla's Fire/Rescue/First Responder training manuals to some degree but corner worker education and tech worker education is going to be a learning curve once you really start thinking "hmm wonder what happens when shit's sideways upside down and on fire"
- epic free-fall depreciation so I can afford to buy one as a car to bang into stuff with
- With those details hammered out, spec Model 3 could be a real actual thing for real actual wheel to wheel racing at real actual fast laptimes in a car normies can buy. 15-20 minute sprint races, use the RV hookups at most tracks for charging in between sessions...it could work. And it'd be awesome. Duct the brakes, run a coilover (suspension is dead simple wishbones up front and multilink rear, MCS already has dampers in use on this application) gut it and run a low-grip tire to keep costs and power demands down and driver demands up...

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

True, but a car built in a tent...

just don't drive it through a puddle...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Richbot

It's axiomatically false to say we are asking too much of the batteries though. Just look at the results and forget what's powering it. In the real fantasy world where you and I live as neighbors, let's say you and I both leave our houses at the same time headed for some fun motorsports activities 50 miles away, me with a full tank of electron in my in-laws' model 3 and you in your E92...we get to the first light and I can press the disappear button while you're still protecting your engine during warmup. My disappear button is better than yours below about 80mph, which is 10 above any speed limit in my area, and never ever requires anything but a thought to deploy unlike the sound and fury of the M3. And then when we get to the autocross, we both change wheels/tires and my car is in a significantly faster autocross class because it's too fast for F Street where the E9x plays. Then we do the track day, I'll be parked twice as much as you, but hey, compromises are everywhere

The limitations are surmountable. They're not going to evaporate but they're certainly getting better and better. Charge times have been cut in half in half a decade, yada.

It's workable in the same way a Miata is workable. Compromised, but can be effective within the right constraints. I mean, JUST WAIT TILL THE PORSCHE HOMERS GET THEIR TAYCANS it's going to be really fun to pick those guys off at track days, lol

Trust me I used to feel the same way. Then I drove one and saw what friends are doing with them in real actual competition events

I don't think we are asking too much from the batteries. Systems are in place to avoid us from asking too much from them, which is why it slows down after a couple laps around a go kart track.
To be able to provide the output needed for a 30 minute session at WGI will not happen with current battery chemistry

My girlfriend goes through a really nice curvy road near my house faster than I do, all in her POS Tiguan. This does not make me wish I had one of those.

Autocross doesn't apply to me either, although I'm sure it does to plenty of other people.

I don't think I'll have any fun picking off Taycans, just like I don't have any fun chasing down TTRS and RS3s, or Quadrifoglios, or RS5s, or C63s: none of those cars are actually used in advanced groups at track days, they only exist in the imagination of people who don't attend enough track days



For all this, if my workplace had chargers for free electricity I would get an i3 which are dirt cheap for commuting



It would be cool to have you as a neighbor!



EDIT:
While I'm at it, electric cars are a fallacy if your objective is to 'protect the environment'. After you remove the BS perks for rich early adopters their cost per mile is not far from a regular car. We can all be sure Mr Government will tax the shit out of electricity the way they do with gasoline

[pbonsalb]

2.8 seconds to 60 is fun to me. I drive on the street so a stop light run or highway pull or on/off ramp is my typical play activity and does not last long. My next car will be gas, but I won’t knock the performance of the higher performance Tesla models for failing driving use.

[Redd]

Pointless debate. It's like saying Spotify is better than vinyl. Those who prefer vinyl don't care that Spotify has millions of songs. They just want to be able to listen to their handful of records with the warmth vinyl offers. For the other 99.9% of the world, Spotify rocks.