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      05-07-2019, 09:43 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by spazzyfry123 View Post
I'm fearful that an S54 may leave power to be desired in the long run despite the sensational delivery.
Fortunately if this happens you can supercharge. The ESS kits run just like stock but with way more power.

People took bets on how many days before implosion when we ESS supercharged a dedicated track Z4MC car to 550hp. Its owner is the second fastest driver I've met (first is Randy Pobst).

Anyway, here we are, three season later, totally stock engine + ESS and absolutely zero issues.
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      05-07-2019, 11:39 AM   #46
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I'm fearful that an S54 may leave power to be desired in the long run despite the sensational delivery.

Honestly, this is going to happen to most people in most cars. You will always end up wanting something faster. How else do you think the car companies and aftermarket stay in business?
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      05-07-2019, 01:25 PM   #47
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What drove you up the wall for the interior? Fit? Materials? Rattles? Ergonomics? D) all the above?
Just materials, ergonomics, and general design. A Volkswagen GTI is miles nicer and that's really annoying in the long-term.

I didn't buy the NAV/GPS and I'm really glad I didn't. I looks like an Atari at this point.
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      05-07-2019, 01:27 PM   #48
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Visceral, was the StabiliTrak + PTM stuff still too aggressive in the higher modes? The C6 system, even in the ZR1, isn't as sophisticated as the one in the C7. I actually prefer running with things on but dialed back so I do have a bit of a safety net in case I do something stupid.

I'm not exactly competing for trophies so if it occasionally intervenes and costs me a 1/2 second but saves me from a potentially nasty spin, then so be it.
The C6Z doesn't have PTM and I believe had a super-invasive Stabilitrack that just had to be turned completely off. I never left anything on as what was in there was a complete lap-time and experience killer.
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      05-07-2019, 01:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
Just materials, ergonomics, and general design. A Volkswagen GTI is miles nicer and that's really annoying in the long-term.
.
This point is perpetually overlooked. It seems like you get classified as a interior snob if you make this statement.
If a 27k car can have a better interior than a 70k one, something is wrong. But it goes deeper than that and shows a complete lack of commitment to quality which will inevitably show up in different places

Apologists will always say it's X fast at the Ring or whatever... but no one is at the Ring every day. Cars have to be good when you're asking real money for them

And cue in to my sustained criticism that the C8 Vette will be mid engined. Yet another 'tick the box' exercise from the masters of ticking boxes. [like the GT350...]
Spend the resources thrown away ticking a stupid box and build a world class car. Stop making excuses. Build a better driver's car than a GT3, full stop. I'll be the first in line

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 05-07-2019 at 03:26 PM..
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      05-07-2019, 01:47 PM   #50
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A new camaro ZL1 interior is pretty sweet, I was surprised...
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      05-07-2019, 02:10 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Fortunately if this happens you can supercharge. The ESS kits run just like stock but with way more power.

People took bets on how many days before implosion when we ESS supercharged a dedicated track Z4MC car to 550hp. Its owner is the second fastest driver I've met (first is Randy Pobst).

Anyway, here we are, three season later, totally stock engine + ESS and absolutely zero issues.
But N/A POWAHHHH

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Honestly, this is going to happen to most people in most cars. You will always end up wanting something faster. How else do you think the car companies and aftermarket stay in business?
There is a point (for me) where too much is too much. Having a nice balance is a good place to be. I've had some cars getting up to the 700 horsie range that just wasn't fun. I mean, sure, it was roller coaster fun in that it was fun to live with for very short bursts. But I don't think I want to ride a roller coaster for fun anymore. My body is too beat up

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Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
Just materials, ergonomics, and general design. A Volkswagen GTI is miles nicer and that's really annoying in the long-term.

I didn't buy the NAV/GPS and I'm really glad I didn't. I looks like an Atari at this point.
You're digging deep for me. I bought a GLI new in 2013 with all the boxes checked. Was great for the everyday and loved the simplicity of the interior. But, as you said, I don't have it anymore (and no more VAG cars ever).

I honestly didn't know you could get the car without the screen. Interested!

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Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
A new camaro ZL1 interior is pretty sweet, I was surprised...
The new Camaros are a guilty pleasure for me. I had a couple fourth gen F-body cars once upon a time. They hold a soft spot. But I thought they were kind of big then; I can't imagine I could wrap around the size of the newer cars?
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      05-07-2019, 02:14 PM   #52
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A new camaro ZL1 interior is pretty sweet, I was surprised...
You mean the Cantseemaro? ;-)

Those things are a hilarious bang for the buck though. Can definitely embarrass a lot of cars on the track.
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      05-07-2019, 02:24 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMM3Y View Post
A new camaro ZL1 interior is pretty sweet, I was surprised...
You mean the Cantseemaro? ;-)

Those things are a hilarious bang for the buck though. Can definitely embarrass a lot of cars on the track.
Yep and you get a back seat! Boom..

No need to check your six when your smoking everyone!! Lol
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      05-07-2019, 08:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Just look at the lap times for the C&D Lightning Lap, Nurburgring, etc.

C7 Z06 lightning lap: 2:44.6
C6 ZR1 lightning lap: 2:51.8

C7 Z06 Nurburgring: 7:10
C6 ZR1 Nurburgring: 7:26

The C7 has more power, weighs only about 100 pounds more, more tire, more modern electronics, more aero. It's going to be at least as fast as a ZR1.
Ahh my apologies. I thought we were talking about the C6 Z06 vs C6 ZR1 until I re-read your post about rather having C7 Z06 than C6 ZR1. My bad.
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      05-08-2019, 08:03 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
THere are a lot of people who feel like they're at the limit on the track going slow in very fast cars. I think a lot of people who track C6Zs are those fast-car-slow types. .
I may have already quoted this but I'll do it again. You speak the truth! I don't think it's a specific problem to Vettes though, the world is full of stupidly fast cars driven by bad drivers

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      05-08-2019, 12:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
And cue in to my sustained criticism that the C8 Vette will be mid engined. Yet another 'tick the box' exercise from the masters of ticking boxes. [like the GT350...]
Spend the resources thrown away ticking a stupid box and build a world class car. Stop making excuses. Build a better driver's car than a GT3, full stop. I'll be the first in line

The chief engineer and even Doug Fehan, the director for the Corvette Racing program, have basically said that in order to keep the car competitive from a performance perspective, they had to move to mid-engine.

I don't buy that 100%, but I do understand what they're getting at. The platform is quite old at this point and they're starting to reach the limits of what they can reasonably do without making big compromises. If you read what the chief engineer has said over the years, they've worked very hard to make the car reasonably comfortable and practical for daily use but still give it high levels of performance at an affordable price. The C7 architecture is really just an evolution of the C5 and C6; lots of refinements and electronics to push things this far but you can only do so much with a 20+ year old package.


BTW, you do realize that a C7 Grand Sport was just as fast as a GT3 in the Lightning Lap, right?
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      05-08-2019, 12:32 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
The chief engineer and even Doug Fehan, the director for the Corvette Racing program, have basically said that in order to keep the car competitive from a performance perspective, they had to move to mid-engine.

BTW, you do realize that a C7 Grand Sport was just as fast as a GT3 in the Lightning Lap, right?
The problem is not the speed. They're already fast cars. I said 'build a world class car', which is clearly like speaking swahili to the development team

I am supremely aware of the Lightning lap times Vettes put down, that is how I considered one before buying the E90 as a dedicated track car.

The speed of the Corvettes is not the problem. They need to build better cars.
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      05-08-2019, 12:44 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The problem is not the speed. They're already fast cars. I said 'build a world class car', which is clearly like speaking swahili to the development team

I am supremely aware of the Lightning lap times Vettes put down, that is how I considered one before buying the E90 as a dedicated track car.

The speed of the Corvettes is not the problem. They need to build better cars.

Just curious what you mean by "better"? Are you talking about material quality, build quality, features/amenities, or something else? Obviously it is built to a price and you aren't getting the premium interior of the GT3, for example, but that's also why it costs about $50k less. I'm fine with that trade-off and I admit it's far from a perfect car.
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      05-08-2019, 12:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Just curious what you mean by "better"? Are you talking about material quality, build quality, features/amenities, or something else? Obviously it is built to a price and you aren't getting the premium interior of the GT3, for example, but that's also why it costs about $50k less. I'm fine with that trade-off and I admit it's far from a perfect car.
build quality, handling at the limit behavior

People have gone from E9Xs to 991 GT3s in this forum and have said the tactile qualities of the GT3 are not better in terms of buttons, clickers, etc. So you do not need a 150-200k car to have a better interior

For an example of what I'm talking about, go back to the ZR1 link. Look at the interior pics. In 2001 I had a 330Ci with a steering wheel that looked like that. I found it horrible and swapped it to an M3 steering wheel... that was back when I was practically starving to death to afford the monthly payments on that car...
The seats in that ancient 330Ci were also light years ahead of whatever those things are in that poor ZR1... etc etc etc.

The development team has to understand that people expect to see better than a GTi interior quality in a car that costs 90k-150k. There is just no going back from that.


I'm not trying to bust your chops. There is a market for cars faster than M3s that are not Porsches... I'm in it. And I wish they made those changes so I could buy one

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      05-08-2019, 01:25 PM   #60
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I'm not trying to bust your chops. There is a market for cars faster than M3s that are not Porsches... I'm in it. And I wish they made those changes so I could buy one
I get it, and I'm not trying to shill for the Corvette. It has its faults. I wasn't expecting a Porsche-tier car for half the price, but I am also fully aware that there is a Porsche tax/markup. Build quality is adequate for the price. I had to manage my own expectations coming from BMW to Chevy.
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      05-09-2019, 01:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The problem is not the speed. They're already fast cars. I said 'build a world class car', which is clearly like speaking swahili to the development team

I am supremely aware of the Lightning lap times Vettes put down, that is how I considered one before buying the E90 as a dedicated track car.

The speed of the Corvettes is not the problem. They need to build better cars.
Let me double down on that. I could track my TTS and take 6 seconds off of every lap just by arriving in a different car. It goes back to why I bought and exclusively track the E90 M3 in the first place (and am waiting five years for a GT3RS allotment) instead of buying a new ZR1 right now.

We go to the track and spend the money for the experience. None of us are walking away with trophies or even bragging rights that change our lives. So if you want the best possible experience, I'd argue that a track car should have:

- engaging and consistent behavior at the limit
- flexibility to respond kindly to a variety of inputs with consistent results that you can attribute to yourself (rather than electronics)
- visceral sound that you can feel
- brakes that don't give out
- a transmission that invites participation without mis-shifts
- reliability to repeatedly eat consumables but not fail otherwise
- power to keep up on the straights or even pass if you got the last exit right
...
...
- laptimes to talk about

The ZR1 doesn't hit nearly as many of those as an E90 M3.
The Z06 hits some of them
Several Porsches were designed to hit them in order (but for $$$).
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      05-09-2019, 04:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visceral View Post
I'd argue that a track car should have:

- engaging and consistent behavior at the limit
- flexibility to respond kindly to a variety of inputs with consistent results that you can attribute to yourself (rather than electronics)
- visceral sound that you can feel
- brakes that don't give out
- a transmission that invites participation without mis-shifts
- reliability to repeatedly eat consumables but not fail otherwise
- power to keep up on the straights or even pass if you got the last exit right
...
...
- laptimes to talk about

The ZR1 doesn't hit nearly as many of those as an E90 M3.
The Z06 hits some of them
Several Porsches were designed to hit them in order (but for $$$).

My Grand Sport has been able to handle all of those things to my satisfaction -- it's very well-rounded. I haven't tracked a ZR1 or Z06 so can't comment there. Have you guys tracked those cars?
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      05-10-2019, 08:49 AM   #63
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My Grand Sport has been able to handle all of those things to my satisfaction -- it's very well-rounded. I haven't tracked a ZR1 or Z06 so can't comment there. Have you guys tracked those cars?
I think the GS is the most well rounded of the Vettes for sure

I've instructed in Z51 Vettes and driven the C7 Z06 on the street. The rest of the info from Vettes comes from Corvette forums back when I was researching them to buy one
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      05-11-2019, 02:50 AM   #64
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Many of the opinions in this thread read like brief exerpts from Lieberman vids/articles.

I’ve owned, tracked, or driven every gen M3 (except an e30), every c7 variant except the zr1, and many porsche’s incl GT3’s and turbo S’s.

I currently own an M4 and do not own a corvette. The digs against the C7 interior are mostly inaccurate and overblown. As are the comments about at the limit handling. I’m very happy with my M4 but my last Z06 interior had zero rattles, unlike my M4.

I honestly think the e9x, f8x, and all the C7 variants I’ve experienced are excellent cars. They each have their pro/cons but they’re all very good.
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      05-11-2019, 06:25 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo8765 View Post
Many of the opinions in this thread read like brief exerpts from Lieberman vids/articles.

I’ve owned, tracked, or driven every gen M3 (except an e30), every c7 variant except the zr1, and many porsche’s incl GT3’s and turbo S’s.

I currently own an M4 and do not own a corvette. The digs against the C7 interior are mostly inaccurate and overblown. As are the comments about at the limit handling. I’m very happy with my M4 but my last Z06 interior had zero rattles, unlike my M4.

I honestly think the e9x, f8x, and all the C7 variants I’ve experienced are excellent cars. They each have their pro/cons but they’re all very good.
How do feel on these topics with the C6, though?
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