E92 M3 (Last V8+6spd) or F82 M4 (Last 6spd)?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

If you want to buy a current generation "pure drivers car", then BMW should be off your list anyway.

My take- budget drivers car: new Miata

mid priced drivers car: Camaro SS 1LE (which will stomp your E9X M3s and really anything short of a super car on a track)

High end drivers car: Lotus Evora 400 or a Porsche 911

/end.

I agree with your Miata statement

Disagree with the Camaro SS. If it were so wonderful I would have seen at least one fast one at the track so far. Haven't. I'm pretty confident that if GM cannot build their {2015} halo car, a Vette C7 Z51 that won't overheat at the track running with street tires, well then I'll steer clear of anything they make. [possible exception in the Vette GS]

Disagree with the Evora and 911. I've instructed in an Evora and would never, ever buy a car with an engine from a minivan.

I'm not sure where the high end drivers cars are anymore. Maybe McLaren? Regardless I"m not interested


There are many cars that, according to Excel, should stomp on the E9X at the track but do not. M3's in the top run groups are consistently in the pointy end of that run group.

[BrewRifle]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

If you want to buy a current generation "pure drivers car", then BMW should be off your list anyway.
Camaro SS 1LE (which will stomp your E9X M3s and really anything short of a super car on a track)

/end.

Good shit I'd hope so given our cars are an 11+ year old design...

[BrewRifle]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

BMW snobbery at its best (worst?) You clearly haven't spent any large amount of time with one. It may have a relatively cheap interior in lower trims, but as a drivers car, it's outstanding. In higher trims, the interior is fine. Not like the shit interior in the more basic 3 series is anything to write home about.

American automakers today are not the same as they were in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

That's because our engineers blew donkey nuts compared to those in Germany and Japan for 30 years. It's about time they got off of their lazy asses and actually engineered something worth a shit HAHA.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by BrewRifle

Good shit I'd hope so given our cars are an 11+ year old design...

Streets of Willow:

The Camaro SS 1LE laid down a 1:20.67 lap, 3.3 seconds quicker (against a Mutstang GT). In other words, these two cars wouldn’t be allowed to race together. Different class doesn’t cover it. The list of cars the Camaro went faster than should embarrass some OEMs: Porsche Cayman GT4, 2014 Audi R8 V10 Plus, Ferrari 458 Italia. I mean, come on!


To put it bluntly, the Camaro is in another league, with legitimate supercars. A 2015 GT-R NISMO held the Streets record—1:19.07—meaning the gulf between the quickest car ever lapped at the track and the Chevy (1.6 seconds) was less than half the gulf between our two competitors (3.3 seconds). But then we got bored at lunch and Randy ran a lap in a Lamborghini Huracán Performonte. Result: new champ, at 1:18.73—making the Camaro the sixth-fastest car around Streets. Yet the Chevy still is less than 2 seconds off the pace of a hypercar costing six times as much. Dang.

The winner of this round? The Chevrolet Camaro 1LE. In my mind, it’s not close. Chevy has done the near impossible, transcended the genre, and turned a once provincial pony car into an honest to goodness world-class sports car. This $46,000 miracle punches so far above its weight that I’m in danger of saying weird things that could easily be taken out of context. Such as, if I were an engineer at BMW or even Porsche, I’d be clearing off my drawing boards.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I agree with your Miata statement

Disagree with the Camaro SS. If it were so wonderful I would have seen at least one fast one at the track so far. Haven't. I'm pretty confident that if GM cannot build their {2015} halo car, a Vette C7 Z51 that won't overheat at the track running with street tires, well then I'll steer clear of anything they make. [possible exception in the Vette GS]

Disagree with the Evora and 911. I've instructed in an Evora and would never, ever buy a car with an engine from a minivan.

I'm not sure where the high end drivers cars are anymore. Maybe McLaren? Regardless I"m not interested


There are many cars that, according to Excel, should stomp on the E9X at the track but do not. M3's in the top run groups are consistently in the pointy end of that run group.

Which year Evora? HUGE difference between the early production Evora and Evora S vs. the Evora 400. It's like a different car.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Which year Evora? HUGE difference between the early production Evora and Evora S vs. the Evora 400. It's like a different car.

The 400. Student ended up so unhappy he sold it before finishing the track season. Now has a GT4

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The 400. Student ended up so unhappy he sold it before finishing the track season. Now has a GT4

I drove it and thought it was fantastic. Super sharp steering, responsive chassis- felt very light on it's feet..and never once did I pine for more power.

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I drove it and thought it was fantastic. Super sharp steering, responsive chassis- felt very light on it's feet..and never once did I pine for more power.

You also like Chevy's though...so...

[dparm]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I don't even know what that means. What is a "true" M car? Manual? 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, V8, or V10?

The irony of this is that when the E92 was announced as having a V8, people lost their shit.


"OMG it's just a big heavy muscle car now"

"Inline-6s are the ultimate, no one would ever want a V8"

"Dual clutch? OMG they just want to sell these to morons who aren't purists and can't drive a manual"


And yet here we are 10 years later calling it the best M3 ever.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm pretty confident that if GM cannot build their {2015} halo car, a Vette C7 Z51 that won't overheat at the track running with street tires, well then I'll steer clear of anything they make. [possible exception in the Vette GS]

You're thinking of the Z06 which is notorious for heat soak at the track, especially when equipped with the 8AT.

The regular Stingray and Grand Sport will happily hum along on the track until they run out of gas. In fact, the chief Corvette engineer flat-out admitted that they test the cars for that exact scenario because they know their customers will be doing just that. He went into great detail on the Corvette Forums about what the track testing regimen is.

I'll be watching the ZR1 closely since GM sunk considerable R&D into ensuring it runs cooler.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by SDPLV

You also like Chevy's though...so...

laugh at it- or me- if you want, but the Camaro is now a world-class sports car in terms of driving dynamics. I prefer it over the Corvette since it's not supposed to be good.

[kerrit]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

BMW snobbery at its best (worst?) You clearly haven't spent any large amount of time with one. It may have a relatively cheap interior in lower trims, but as a drivers car, it's outstanding. In higher trims, the interior is fine. Not like the shit interior in the more basic 3 series is anything to write home about.

American automakers today are not the same as they were in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

you argue too much

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by kerrit

you argue too much

lol shup kelali , at least I'm not boring. You basically work the entire time during gatherings.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

You're thinking of the Z06 which is notorious for heat soak at the track, especially when equipped with the 8AT.

The regular Stingray and Grand Sport will happily hum along on the track until they run out of gas. In fact, the chief Corvette engineer flat-out admitted that they test the cars for that exact scenario because they know their customers will be doing just that. He went into great detail on the Corvette Forums about what the track testing regimen is.

I'll be watching the ZR1 closely since GM sunk considerable R&D into ensuring it runs cooler.

Unfortunately no, I'm thinking of the regular NA Vette

Was thinking of getting one instead of the E90 for the track. Read plenty of stories of people overheating them with stock tires.

Car and Driver overheated theirs twice -wait for it- on a mountain road

I suppose the GS is a different story as it has Z06 cooling an regular Vette power

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

laugh at it- or me- if you want, but the Camaro is now a world-class sports car in terms of driving dynamics. I prefer it over the Corvette since it's not supposed to be good.

Bruh, please.
My face hurting from laughing.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by SDPLV

Bruh, please.
My face hurting from laughing.

Laugh if you want, no skin off my back.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Unfortunately no, I'm thinking of the regular NA Vette

Was thinking of getting one instead of the E90 for the track. Read plenty of stories of people overheating them with stock tires.

Car and Driver overheated theirs twice -wait for it- on a mountain road

I suppose the GS is a different story as it has Z06 cooling an regular Vette power

Odd, I don't see complaints of this on the Corvette Forums and I've never seen a C7 Corvette overheat at a track day.

[i_love_cars]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I agree with your Miata statement

Disagree with the Camaro SS. If it were so wonderful I would have seen at least one fast one at the track so far. Haven't. I'm pretty confident that if GM cannot build their {2015} halo car, a Vette C7 Z51 that won't overheat at the track running with street tires, well then I'll steer clear of anything they make. [possible exception in the Vette GS]

Disagree with the Evora and 911. I've instructed in an Evora and would never, ever buy a car with an engine from a minivan.

I'm not sure where the high end drivers cars are anymore. Maybe McLaren? Regardless I"m not interested


There are many cars that, according to Excel, should stomp on the E9X at the track but do not. M3's in the top run groups are consistently in the pointy end of that run group.

Sooooo much truth here. Once you spend enough time at the track and drive in enough advanced run groups (where people typically have more prepped cars), you see boatloads of M3s and few if any of the cars that supposedly curbstomp M3s.

I've seen this consistently even outside the BMW CCA events - I have driven with MVP tracktime, LAPS Inc, GPS Tracktime, Northwoods Shelby, PCA - and it's always the same story.

There are some platforms that just do it right for the track and M3 is one of them. Anyone who has enough years of experience to trend this can speak to the truth of it. One thing to understand is that the cars you read about in magazines that are beating M3s around the track are all being driven by professional drivers. It's very important to know that your average Camaro or Mustang track pack needs a very skilled driver to compete with an M3. Because the American muscle cars are still a handful and make concessions in certain ways. There is a difference between a car that you can put down good lap times with and one that you can put down good lap times with that is neutral and balanced to drive. Someone driving cars that supposedly beat M3s all over the place is usually an amateur driver (like most HDPEs) and are going to struggle to control the car enough to compete with the BMW.

And yes, the new Miata is awesome for an affordable "new" drivers car. That thing ticks so many boxes the right way.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

Sooooo much truth here. Once you spend enough time at the track and drive in enough advanced run groups (where people typically have more prepped cars), you see boatloads of M3s and few if any of the cars that supposedly curbstomp M3s.

I've seen this consistently even outside the BMW CCA events - I have driven with MVP tracktime, LAPS Inc, GPS Tracktime, Northwoods Shelby, PCA - and it's always the same story.

There are some platforms that just do it right for the track and M3 is one of them. Anyone who has enough years of experience to trend this can speak to the truth of it. One thing to understand is that the cars you read about in magazines that are beating M3s around the track are all being driven by professional drivers. It's very important to know that your average Camaro or Mustang track pack needs a very skilled driver to compete with an M3. Because the American muscle cars are still a handful and make concessions in certain ways. There is a difference between a car that you can put down good lap times with and one that you can put down good lap times with that is neutral and balanced to drive. Someone driving cars that supposedly beat M3s all over the place is usually an amateur driver (like most HDPEs) and are going to struggle to control the car enough to compete with the BMW.

And yes, the new Miata is awesome for an affordable "new" drivers car. That thing ticks so many boxes the right way.

"Few if any" is completely correct. Almost all the cars on the track in advanced levels should crush M3s actually get crushed by M3s.
It's very consistent.

Most of the time I run with PCA so it isn't like I'm all day with BMWCCA and think they're really fast. Any M3 in a black run group at PCA is among the fastest cars there.

M3s have several key advantages which make up the difference
-They come from the factory with mellow suspension/tires
BMW does not install granite suspension in their M3s. These are meant to balance daily driving with sportiness
The tire compounds and sizes are completely normal for daily driving. No 285/305 PSC2-type tires like others
-They are extremely reliable at the track
People think Porsches/whatever are reliable at the track. They are not. What is reliable is an M3. Year in, year out. GT3's getting rebuilt at 50k miles? Check. M3 with 170k miles, no rebuilds, getting double-duty tracked? Check
-Their weak points are easily upgraded
3k will net you a front BBK which can easily go toe to toe with any Porsche brake
-They are easy and communicative to drive
This is a huge point. I guess it's the only thing that can explain how M3s can easily crush cars that are more modded and 'better'.



So much talk of other cars being so much better, but you go to an AER race and 80% of the cars are BMWs. Even the crappiest BMW ever built, the E36M3 which was castrated for the US market, is still able to spank modern 'track prepped cars' without difficulty.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

"Few if any" is completely correct. Almost all the cars on the track in advanced levels should crush M3s actually get crushed by M3s.
It's very consistent.

Most of the time I run with PCA so it isn't like I'm all day with BMWCCA and think they're really fast. Any M3 in a black run group at PCA is among the fastest cars there.

Well said. I just don't see M3s or Porsches suffering mechanical breakdowns or early retirements at track days. They're ready to go from the factory.

[Takumi587]

I was about to pull the trigger about a while ago on an E92 ZCP M3 until I saw the F80 ZCP package. The F80 to me felt stronger and lighter. The F80 is still M quality built and the engine’s pull is effortless. Any M3 generation in my book is a winner anyways.

Here is a video that discusses more of what they did with the F80 M3.

https://youtu.be/8CJ6IwVzV-A

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

I was about to pull the trigger about a while ago on an E92 ZCP M3 until I saw the F80 ZCP package. The F80 to me felt stronger and lighter. The F80 is still M quality built and the engine’s pull is effortless. Any M3 generation in my book is a winner anyways.

Here is a video that discusses more of what they did with the F80 M3.

Any M is a winner, I totally agree