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      10-28-2020, 08:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Maybe... I think with Australia it's more a population density thing than a geographical thing. I mean I think they are in like the top 5 or 10 least densely populated countries.
This is a MASSIVE myth. Australia is one of the most urbanised countries on the planet as great swathes of the country is nothing but dust and a baking sun with no rainfall for years on end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country take put the weird little places like Singapore and monaco and we are up there. Sydney and Melbourne would be some of the largest metro areas if in the USA.

The difference is we locked down HARD, compulsory hotel stray for 2 weeks, army meets you at the airport and takes you to your new 14 day home. We don't fuck around and fr the most part the populance doesn't politicise the issue like elsewhere.

Even on this very board, people are taking vacations to Mexico from the USA, are you fucking crazy?? Australians are BANNED from international travel.

It is also a myth that people are leaving Cali in droves, population continues to increase at bang on the national average with as many states growing faster than cali as there are growing slower.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/st...growing-states

Last edited by Alfisti; 10-28-2020 at 09:03 AM..
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      10-28-2020, 09:03 AM   #90
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I don't think this thing is going away anytime soon and the vaccines at this point are nothing but pipe dreams...

Do we?

1) risk everything and open everything? Isolate only the vulnerable?
2) close down and spiral into the great depression?

For option 1, get ready for deaths... for option 2, get ready for a socialist state for probably a year or so... and the govt better do a little more than $1200 a month (i don't see this happening).

No easy decisions here at all. So far, nothing in any country has worked and cases are surging everywhere again. Neither Biden nor Trump have any plan for this other than to appeal to their constituents.
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      10-28-2020, 09:29 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Maybe... I think with Australia it's more a population density thing than a geographical thing. I mean I think they are in like the top 5 or 10 least densely populated countries.
This is a MASSIVE myth. Australia is one of the most urbanised countries on the planet as great swathes of the country is nothing but dust and a baking sun with no rainfall for years on end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country take put the weird little places like Singapore and monaco and we are up there. Sydney and Melbourne would be some of the largest metro areas if in the USA.

The difference is we locked down HARD, compulsory hotel stray for 2 weeks, army meets you at the airport and takes you to your new 14 day home. We don't fuck around and fr the most part the populance doesn't politicise the issue like elsewhere.

Even on this very board, people are taking vacations to Mexico from the USA, are you fucking crazy?? Australians are BANNED from international travel.

It is also a myth that people are leaving Cali in droves, population continues to increase at bang on the national average with as many states growing faster than cali as there are growing slower.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/st...growing-states
Lol that doesn't fit the narrative. Watch the argument just loop back to restate an earlier claim.

It's the like the poster has never heard of Melbourne or Sydney. Probably thinks everyone lives in the bush wrestling Crocs.

I'm willing to bet it's the old school Texans worried about their state turning blue. However, a lot of those "Californians" invading their states aren't native Californians. A lot of them are people who moved to California, then moved out. A lot of them are actually republicans leaving California. So it's not really Californians "ruining" their state, it's just change. Younger people have a different idea of how this country should be run. It's just easy to blame California because why not? Everyone else does. Hop on that bandwagon!
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      10-28-2020, 10:28 AM   #92
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I live in a small town in california called Solvang, we have seen some of the tourist stuff go down a little but just down the HWY in Santa Barbara where the famous State Street is, is a complete ghost town for the most part! And now that things are getting colder I was blown away with how many of the places were empty and also out of business. ITs sad, I dont see how things will get any better with them having to seat everyone outside for the most part and weather getting a lot colder.
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      10-28-2020, 10:56 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Sydney and Melbourne metro areas would be the 6th and 7th largest in the USA. We also had a significant breakout in melbourne with 700 cases a day and got it down to 0 as of yesterday.

Chinese travel to Australia is monumental.

Truth is, they moved early, shut the border hard, enforced a policed 14 day quarantine and snuffed it out. These were all options other countries could have taken but either didn't or did not do them for long enough or with enough enforcement (the quarantine of incoming travelers is absolutely vital).

We are now in a position to recover the ecomony and go about life relatively normally whist the rest of the world will be stuck dealing with this thing in a half arsed manner.
Uhhhh I was actually in Sydney right before they shut down in April for work on film. They shut down at least 2 weeks LATER than America. And then I was forced to fly back to California because they were about to shut down internationally. And my company said if you don't come back now, we can't guarantee when we'll be able to get you back here to America. Prior to me leaving, absolutely ZERO people were wearing masks of any kind. There was a massive HUGE public gay pride party where people were shoulder to shoulder littering the streets a week before.

are we talking about the same Australia? lol
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      10-28-2020, 11:01 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Sydney and Melbourne metro areas would be the 6th and 7th largest in the USA. We also had a significant breakout in melbourne with 700 cases a day and got it down to 0 as of yesterday.

Chinese travel to Australia is monumental.

Truth is, they moved early, shut the border hard, enforced a policed 14 day quarantine and snuffed it out. These were all options other countries could have taken but either didn't or did not do them for long enough or with enough enforcement (the quarantine of incoming travelers is absolutely vital).

We are now in a position to recover the ecomony and go about life relatively normally whist the rest of the world will be stuck dealing with this thing in a half arsed manner.
Like I said, you have basically 2 areas to manage. The US is massive, has a lot more big cities, and again has tons more movement/travel between states and overseas...it’s not isolated at all like Australia. You don’t have nearly the people. Europe is struggling too, for the same reasons. We aren’t all just idiots and Australia has geniuses in charge and people listening to their leaders. You also don’t test as much as America. The reporting is different. Your population is different and far less diverse. There are a million variables.

Australia wasn’t exactly cutting edge for precautions. You have been endlessly killed in the media for a poor response and people refusing to wear masks almost since the pandemic started.

Last edited by BayMoWe335; 10-28-2020 at 11:11 AM..
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      10-28-2020, 11:05 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by stevenopoly View Post
Uhhhh I was actually in Sydney right before they shut down in April for work on film. They shut down at least 2 weeks LATER than America. And then I was forced to fly back to California because they were about to shut down internationally. And my company said if you don't come back now, we can't guarantee when we'll be able to get you back here to America. Prior to me leaving, absolutely ZERO people were wearing masks of any kind. There was a massive HUGE public gay pride party where people were shoulder to shoulder littering the streets a week before.

are we talking about the same Australia? lol
Agreed...Australia has been criticized for no masks and careless people. Masks were not required until almost August...certainly not some kind of model country for precautions.

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How to spot a homegrown Aussie -they're not wearing a face mask:

Considerate migrants more than twice as likely to cover up for coronavirus

Just 20 per cent of people born in Australia confirmed they wore a face mask
Migrants more likely to don facial covering with 42 per cent confirming they did
Overall, just 27.6 per cent of people across Australia covered up mouth in public
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      10-28-2020, 11:08 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Do we?

1) risk everything and open everything? Isolate only the vulnerable?
2) close down and spiral into the great depression?

...
Consider what we already know about covid - which is obviously not everything, but a lot, like mortality rate, age and pre-existing conditions stats, - and:

3) open everything but create safe mechanisms for vulnerable groups, riskier environments, etc. Require masks - regardless of their effectiveness or lack of thereof, they make ppl feel safe. Accommodate paranoid and high risk/vulnerable folks - distant learning for students, remote work for employees, food deliveries, etc. (and it should be noted most of it is already in place). Promote healthier lifestyles (again, nothing new, but now is a perfect opportunity to significantly advance it). And - most importantly! - stop politicizing it, which I hope mostly goes away starting next week.

Yes, there will be covid deaths in foreseeable future, and yes, there will be many unhappy, but so is the price we as a society have to accept. If Australia wants to stay locked down, it's their choice. Just watch how much longer their citizens will tolerate it when the rest of the world - or at least part of it - returns to normal and the dooms day doesn't happen.
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      10-28-2020, 11:24 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I don't think this thing is going away anytime soon and the vaccines at this point are nothing but pipe dreams...

Do we?

1) risk everything and open everything? Isolate only the vulnerable?
2) close down and spiral into the great depression?

For option 1, get ready for deaths... for option 2, get ready for a socialist state for probably a year or so... and the govt better do a little more than $1200 a month (i don't see this happening).

No easy decisions here at all. So far, nothing in any country has worked and cases are surging everywhere again. Neither Biden nor Trump have any plan for this other than to appeal to their constituents.
In my opinion, option 1 should have been what was done. It's a lot easier to control a smaller at risk population than to lock down everyone with the large population and land mass of the US.

What gets lost in this discussion and will probably never be brought up in any significant way is how unhealthy and fat the general US population is. One of the comorbidities listed is obesity. This is in many ways is self inflicted and totally preventable. We talk about treatments and vaccines but not the other part which is leading a more healthy life style. I know there will be the segment that will say so and so was an athlete, got Covid, and died. While it's unfortunate something like this can happen, it's a game of statistics. When you look at the overall deaths where healthy/fit people have died it's miniscule. I know all about being a victim of statistics as I had nothing in my health history which would lead me to get two separate cancers yet I won the lottery.
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      10-28-2020, 11:28 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I don't think this thing is going away anytime soon and the vaccines at this point are nothing but pipe dreams...

Do we?

1) risk everything and open everything? Isolate only the vulnerable?
2) close down and spiral into the great depression?

For option 1, get ready for deaths... for option 2, get ready for a socialist state for probably a year or so... and the govt better do a little more than $1200 a month (i don't see this happening).

No easy decisions here at all. So far, nothing in any country has worked and cases are surging everywhere again. Neither Biden nor Trump have any plan for this other than to appeal to their constituents.
In my opinion, option 1 should have been what was done. It's a lot easier to control a smaller at risk population than to lock down everyone with the large population and land mass of the US.

What gets lost in this discussion and will probably never be brought up in any significant way is how unhealthy and fat the general US population is. One of the comorbidities listed is obesity. This is in many ways is self inflicted and totally preventable. We talk about treatments and vaccines but not the other part which is leading a more healthy life style. I know there will be the segment that will say so and so was an athlete, got Covid, and died. While it's unfortunate something like this can happen, it's a game of statistics. When you look at the overall deaths where healthy/fit people have died it's miniscule. I know all about being a victim of statistics as I had nothing in my health history which would lead me to get two separate cancers yet I won the lottery.
The moment body shaming became a no no... we screwed ourselves. If you don't tell a fat person they are unhealthy and offend / motivate them to change, you have created a bigger problem in itself.
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      10-28-2020, 11:45 AM   #99
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Australia did lock down harder than north america and europe.

- Flights from China were stopped late January
- When the borders were shut they were shut hard, no excuses like elsewhere. I mean we still have snowbirds from Canada going to FLorida, fuck em they can stay there for all I care, shouldn't let them back in
- International travel banned outside of a few exceptions
- Quotas and caps on incoming travel (expats returning)
- Forced quarantine from all returning xpats, this has been the biggie as a staggering amount of people test positive when getting off international flights
- International students sent home
- State borders closed with physical checks in place
- Re-opened slowly and carefully to avoid it getting a hold again and snuffed out flare ups quickly with this policy
- When an outbreak did occur in Melbourne (700 cases a day) they absolutely shut it down and have it down to a case or two a day by ringing the offending postal codes with a shut down

I see none of that here or in europe or north america, or very, very little.

Agree we were later on masks than we should have been, seems like everyone outside of asia fucked that up.

Nowhere is perfect, everyone could have done better but this whole excuse that it is just georgraphy is a myth.
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      10-28-2020, 11:51 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Australia did lock down harder than north america and europe.

- Flights from China were stopped late January
- When the borders were shut they were shut hard, no excuses like elsewhere. I mean we still have snowbirds from Canada going to FLorida, fuck em they can stay there for all I care, shouldn't let them back in
- International travel banned outside of a few exceptions
- Quotas and caps on incoming travel (expats returning)
- Forced quarantine from all returning xpats, this has been the biggie as a staggering amount of people test positive when getting off international flights
- International students sent home
- State borders closed with physical checks in place
- Re-opened slowly and carefully to avoid it getting a hold again and snuffed out flare ups quickly with this policy
- When an outbreak did occur in Melbourne (700 cases a day) they absolutely shut it down and have it down to a case or two a day by ringing the offending postal codes with a shut down

I see none of that here or in europe or north america, or very, very little.

Agree we were later on masks than we should have been, seems like everyone outside of asia fucked that up.

Nowhere is perfect, everyone could have done better but this whole excuse that it is just georgraphy is a myth.
A nationwide travel ban from China took effect on January 31, 2020, with a few confirmed cases in the United States. If you remember, someone was heavily criticized for this.

No, your geography and the fact Australia has only 2 major areas is an enormous factor...not a myth.
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      10-28-2020, 01:11 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
In my opinion, option 1 should have been what was done. It's a lot easier to control a smaller at risk population than to lock down everyone with the large population and land mass of the US.
I wonder what the qualifications would be for "healthy" people? BMI? Have you smoked? Have you ever had CVD? Immunocompromised? Do you do drugs? What age?

How would you define "isolate"? Self-quarantine? Or law mandated house arrest? Special camps to house people in separate from the "healthy"?

"It's a lot easier to control a smaller at risk population than to lock down everyone with the large population and land mass of the US." - this is easy to say until you actually start to think of how you would actually implement it. Sure, you could "control" a small group of people based on classifications set by a governing body, but that is a slippery slope because controlling people isn't the difficult part, actually choosing who to control is, and I'm not talking about the act of choosing, I'm talking about the difficulty in being right, and the consequences of drawing a line between people who can and people who can't.
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      10-28-2020, 01:29 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
The moment body shaming became a no no... we screwed ourselves. If you don't tell a fat person they are unhealthy and offend / motivate them to change, you have created a bigger problem in itself.
Health isn't just BMI. Drinking alcohol, smoking, base jumping, free climbing, driving fast, playing too much video games, getting plastic surgery, smoking weed, eating mushrooms, these are all as much a risk to your health as eating a hamburger. If people want to shame fat people, then be prepared to stfu if you are drinking a beer more than once a day, or riding a motorcycle without a helmet, or light a cigarette. We all risk our lives in some form of another, just because we choose to do it differently doesn't mean one way is necessarily more deserving of shame than the other.

In fact I would say that shame isn't really the best way to deal with people.

What if we go beyond health to shame people? Some people have already shamed people just from what state they live in. What if we start shaming based on wealth or lack thereof? Why is it okay to shame for obesity, but not something like wealth?

"Hey fat-ass, why don't you lose some weight? My health insurance rates are high because of you."
"Hey loser, why don't you get a better job? My marginal taxes rates are high because of you."

OR

"Shame on you for being fat and not caring about your health. You fat slob!"
"Shame on you for being poor and not caring about your wealth. You loser!"

Sorry, I can't condone fat shaming, just as I cannot condone shaming someone for being less wealthy. No one is perfect, and shaming someone for being less than perfect in one thing that we just happen to be better at is probably more about us trying to feed our own egos.
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      10-28-2020, 01:34 PM   #103
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It's shocking how a thread about California has sparked debate about fat shaming, the Australian response to covid, the US response to covid, vitrol and thinly veiled political attacks. There's a lot of blackness in people's hearts. We're all just full of hate aren't we? This is what we have become? Shame on all of us.

Bimmerpost is a much better place to visit when I don't feel like people actually enjoy and are proud of being so cynical.
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      10-28-2020, 01:36 PM   #104
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That's quite a logic: we may offend somebody by doing A, so let's not only not do A, but also B thru Z.

Name one problem you think should be tackled, and I bet we'll have no problems instantly finding 10 reasons how it will offend/inconvenient/discriminate somebody and thus cannot be tackled or even discussed. Any problem. Go.
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      10-28-2020, 01:40 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by smyles View Post
That's quite a logic: we may offend somebody by doing A, so let's not only not do A, but also B thru Z.

Name one problem you think should be tackled, and I bet we'll have no problems instantly finding 10 reasons how it will offend/inconvenient/discriminate somebody and thus cannot be tackled or even discussed. Any problem. Go.
Discussing isn't shaming. We discuss the problem of American obesity all the time. But call Trump a fat pos and people freak out. Maybe just talk bout how we solve it instead of calling people fat pieces of shit.



It's fine to shame people so long as we aren't the actual victims right?

What do you drive? How much is your house worth? What's your gross income?

How much do you weigh? What's your BMI? What did you eat for lunch?
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      10-28-2020, 01:44 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Discussing isn't shaming. We discuss the problem of American obesity all the time. But call Trump a fat pos and people freak out. Maybe just talk bout how we solve it instead of calling people fat pieces of shit.
Ok. Offer one solution. To any problem. One. Go.
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      10-28-2020, 01:53 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by BayMoWe335 View Post
A nationwide travel ban from China took effect on January 31, 2020, with a few confirmed cases in the United States. If you remember, someone was heavily criticized for this.

No, your geography and the fact Australia has only 2 major areas is an enormous factor...not a myth.
There were also a lot of mayors and politicians saying, "come visit Chinatown." "Travel as much as youd like, there is no reason to be concerned" early in the pandemic.
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      10-28-2020, 02:01 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I wonder what the qualifications would be for "healthy" people? BMI? Have you smoked? Have you ever had CVD? Immunocompromised? Do you do drugs? What age?

How would you define "isolate"? Self-quarantine? Or law mandated house arrest? Special camps to house people in separate from the "healthy"?

"It's a lot easier to control a smaller at risk population than to lock down everyone with the large population and land mass of the US." - this is easy to say until you actually start to think of how you would actually implement it. Sure, you could "control" a small group of people based on classifications set by a governing body, but that is a slippery slope because controlling people isn't the difficult part, actually choosing who to control is, and I'm not talking about the act of choosing, I'm talking about the difficulty in being right, and the consequences of drawing a line between people who can and people who can't.
You're just being argumentative and obtuse for the sake of it. Obesity is listed as a risk factor. There are well established guidelines by the medical community. You know the ones everyone keeps pointing to as part of the following the science. These guidelines as to whether you fall under the category of being obese have not been argued. If you have any of the comorbidities then you're in the high risk group. Many of these people are already in assisted living situations or are known to require additional care. These people require the extra precautions to keep them safe. The procedures are already in place in facilities such as nursing homes which should have implemented them far sooner.

Those that are not sick enough to require assisted care can self isolate. If they choose to continuously go out in public that's on them.
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We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
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      10-28-2020, 02:23 PM   #109
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You're just being argumentative and obtuse for the sake of it. Obesity is listed as a risk factor. There are well established guidelines by the medical community. You know the ones everyone keeps pointing to as part of the following the science. These guidelines as to whether you fall under the category of being obese have not been argued. If you have any of the comorbidities then you're in the high risk group. Many of these people are already in assisted living situations or are known to require additional care. These people require the extra precautions to keep them safe. The procedures are already in place in facilities such as nursing homes which should have implemented them far sooner.

If you think I was being obtuse, I apologize, but that was not my intent. I did not argue that obesity was not a risk factor, but I did list other risk factors... smoking which leads to lung disease another comorbidity. Congenial cardiovascular disease, age... what part of this is obtuse?


I asked you a simple question: "How would you define "isolate"? Self-quarantine? Or law mandated house arrest? Special camps to house people in separate from the "healthy"?"

If this is your answer:

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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Those that are not sick enough to require assisted care can self isolate. If they choose to continuously go out in public that's on them.
...then I am in agreement.
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      10-28-2020, 02:38 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by smyles View Post
Ok. Offer one solution. To any problem. One. Go.
My son isn't doing his homework.

Do I:

a) call him a lazy dummy

or

b) tell him I am here if you need help with homework. There is nothing wrong with asking for help, my job as a parent is to help you. I asked for help, and your mom asked for help when we were your age.

I know where you are going with this.

"Telling me I need help is shaming!!!"

I get it. We are all sick of that, but what is important is that we separate actual shaming from being accused of shaming. #2 isn't actually shaming, it's just that people are sensitive and it's a defense mechanism. I totally get the frustration. We can't really control how other people react to us, all we can control is how we act.

When I say I can't condone shaming, I'm saying we shouldn't be telling obese people

"You are a fat POS and a burden on health care. You need to work out".

That is not a discussion. That is an accusation, and a demand for action.

Instead we should be saying:

"Obesity is a risk factor for heart disease. If you want to lose weight, there are ways to do it and we/I can help."

It won't always be successful, and we could be falsely accused of shaming, but it hopefully promotes discussion more times than the other method. And at least we know in our hearts we didn't shame them.
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