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      02-26-2019, 05:09 PM   #1
MRAT3D
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Hello all,
I have been an M enthusiast for many years now, but I am finally at the point where I can afford to buy a new car at the end of this coming summer. My price range, depending on exactly how much money I can make working this summer, is most likely going to be everything up to 20-21k max, but preferably somewhere around 18-19 (leaves room for some initial mods and possibly maintenance). I have always dreamed of owning an E92 M3, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't give me some maintenance worries within my price range. That being said, there are two other cars that I'm considering, each with their own reliability problems, being the E60 M5 and the E46 M3. I'm drawn to the E60 and the E92 a lot more than the E46 because of their high-revving and amazing-sounding motors, but I am still considering the E46 because of its superior driving feel and the generally lower pricing on it. I am going to be living in the Los Angeles area for the next few years, so I am looking at DCT/SMG models due to obvious traffic reasons and my personal love for the DCT gearbox. I have done a lot of my own work on my current E39, and I plan on being able to do most of the required maintenance on my next car. Any suggestions for this specific case (specifically comparing the difference in maintenance costs for an E92 vs. an E60)?
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      02-26-2019, 05:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRAT3D View Post
Hello all,
I have been an M enthusiast for many years now, but I am finally at the point where I can afford to buy a new car at the end of this coming summer. My price range, depending on exactly how much money I can make working this summer, is most likely going to be everything up to 20-21k max, but preferably somewhere around 18-19 (leaves room for some initial mods and possibly maintenance). I have always dreamed of owning an E92 M3, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't give me some maintenance worries within my price range. That being said, there are two other cars that I'm considering, each with their own reliability problems, being the E60 M5 and the E46 M3. I'm drawn to the E60 and the E92 a lot more than the E46 because of their high-revving and amazing-sounding motors, but I am still considering the E46 because of its superior driving feel and the generally lower pricing on it. I am going to be living in the Los Angeles area for the next few years, so I am looking at DCT/SMG models due to obvious traffic reasons and my personal love for the DCT gearbox. I have done a lot of my own work on my current E39, and I plan on being able to do most of the required maintenance on my next car. Any suggestions for this specific case (specifically comparing the difference in maintenance costs for an E92 vs. an E60)?
If the absolute top of your budget is 21k, and that leaves no room for maintenance, I would strongly advise against an E92 or an E60. To find a car within your budget, you'll be looking at higher mileage examples in less than ideal condition.

Will you be paying cash or financing? If the former, you might be able to swing it as you won't have high car payments, and can put money away for maintenance. If the latter, consider both E92 and E60 require $200 oil changes, $1500 tires, and very high fuel costs as just your cost of keeping it on the streets. If anything does go wrong, you're looking at a hefty repair bill, even if you do the work yourself.

The E46 M3 on the other hand can be found in great condition within your budget. While cost of ownership is less than both its younger siblings, it's still not cheap.

As far as comparing the E92 maintenance to E60, think of it this way - the S65 V8 is the S85 V10 with two less cylinders. Very equal in terms of maintenance. The transmission however is a whole other story. The SMG in the E60 is far inferior to the DCT in terms of performance, comfort, and most importantly, reliability. They are highly prone to failure and IMO the reason why you can find E60 M5's for as cheap as they are.

I am not trying to discourage you from getting into an M car, as they are truly fantastic machines, just making sure you consider the additional costs of ownership beyond simply the purchase price of the car.
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      02-26-2019, 05:49 PM   #3
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E60 M5 has all the issues of the E9x M3 and then some. The S65 engine in the M3 is essentially the S85 (M5) engine with two less cylinders. Rod bearings, throttle actuators, main bearing issues (less common), awful on gas, throw in vanos and SMG issues on top of it. The M3 DCT is much better than the e60 M5 SMG transmission.

The E9x, as many here will tell you, is pretty bulletproof if properly maintained.

Some will tell you they've spent $250 on maintenance in two years. Others will tell you they've spent $5,000 in maintenance in six months (me).

What it boils down... Try to get a well-sorted, well-maintained e92 M3 for mid-high 20s (really low 30s is an ideal budget but solid cars are being had for high 20s 75k mile range) and just have some cash in savings or a good credit card for a rainy day. Although I'm inclined to say sock some more money away first.

Do the maintenance yourself as labor will run upwards of $120-$150/hr depending on where you live. You can save a lot... that doesn't mean parts are cheap... you'll become very familiar with the "M Tax" where bolts cost 5x as much. Familiarize yourself with FCP Euro's lifetime warranty (yes, on oil and brakes too), and plan on doing some preventative maintenance (rod bearing job is $2500 but isn't mandatory, that's a whole different beast of a topic).

I wanted one of these cars for a long time too. It took me years to pull the trigger. I'm getting pounded by maintenance right now but once it's done I know I'll have years and years of shit eating grins for the cost of fuel, tires, brakes, and oil.

Personally- I think, considering your budget, I'd lean toward the e46 M3.
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      02-26-2019, 05:51 PM   #4
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I agree, e60 m5 is probably out of your budget. an '08 e92 m3 could be a good car, and they can be had to $20k, but again if you have an issue and need to spend $2k on maintenance within a short period of time (first 3 mo of ownership) will you be ok with that? E46 m3 can be had for less, but they are appreciating and the clean ones are out of your price range. The higher mileage e46m3 could have costly repairs needed such as: vanos repair, valve adj, rod bearings, clutch assembly, rear subframe tearing from frame, etc.


In reality I probably cannot afford the e90 m3 that i am driving. But do i think about that when the s65 with Karbonius manifold is screaming, nope. For me its worth the financial burden, for others it's not.
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      02-26-2019, 06:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRAT3D View Post
Hello all,
I have been an M enthusiast for many years now, but I am finally at the point where I can afford to buy a new car at the end of this coming summer. My price range, depending on exactly how much money I can make working this summer, is most likely going to be everything up to 20-21k max, but preferably somewhere around 18-19 (leaves room for some initial mods and possibly maintenance). I have always dreamed of owning an E92 M3, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't give me some maintenance worries within my price range. That being said, there are two other cars that I'm considering, each with their own reliability problems, being the E60 M5 and the E46 M3. I'm drawn to the E60 and the E92 a lot more than the E46 because of their high-revving and amazing-sounding motors, but I am still considering the E46 because of its superior driving feel and the generally lower pricing on it. I am going to be living in the Los Angeles area for the next few years, so I am looking at DCT/SMG models due to obvious traffic reasons and my personal love for the DCT gearbox. I have done a lot of my own work on my current E39, and I plan on being able to do most of the required maintenance on my next car. Any suggestions for this specific case (specifically comparing the difference in maintenance costs for an E92 vs. an E60)?
Those two in bold tell me this isn't the car for you at current market value. Mods before maintenance will make for a sad time with these cars. Especially ones bought at that price.
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      02-26-2019, 06:27 PM   #6
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TBH, I wouldn't look at any of those cars with that budget. You're just not going to get a very clean example, and will end up in a tight spot come maintenance time.

Common saying on the E46M boards over the last 5 years ... the car will cost you $30K no matter what. You either pay for it up front, or in maintenance in short order.

I would get something like GTI and save up for a few more years. Soon you'll find clean sorted out cars for low $20Ks. Right now I think they're just over that, though.

It's not worth the financial headache if you're really on a budget. The cars will always be around and they made enough E92s to always find clean, low mile examples in a spec you like. No need to rush it.
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      02-26-2019, 06:34 PM   #7
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You can’t afford these cars.


Buy something within your budget, you don’t want your car to need two throttle actuators and you have to leave it parked because you can’t afford to fix it.
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      02-26-2019, 06:49 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by amrazM View Post
You can’t afford these cars.


Buy something within your budget, you don’t want your car to need two throttle actuators and you have to leave it parked because you can’t afford to fix it.
To be fair, I know how to/have the right tools to replace these. A $300 job isn't too expensive for me.
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      02-26-2019, 06:51 PM   #9
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the smg can be a bit of a hassle. i have a non-M e46 with it's variation of the smg transmission. the pump lasts about 60-70K miles. fairly easy DIY. but there are gear position sensors that can go out as well and the tranny has to be dropped to access them. then there's the subframe and VANOS hassles as well. great driver's car. just know what you're getting into.
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      02-26-2019, 06:52 PM   #10
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if you have a low $20's budget due to financial constraints, don't get any of the cars listed. i know you're not asking for financial advice, but we can get into that if you want to.
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      02-26-2019, 07:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatth View Post
TBH, I wouldn't look at any of those cars with that budget. You're just not going to get a very clean example, and will end up in a tight spot come maintenance time.

Common saying on the E46M boards over the last 5 years ... the car will cost you $30K no matter what. You either pay for it up front, or in maintenance in short order.

I would get something like GTI and save up for a few more years. Soon you'll find clean sorted out cars for low $20Ks. Right now I think they're just over that, though.

It's not worth the financial headache if you're really on a budget. The cars will always be around and they made enough E92s to always find clean, low mile examples in a spec you like. No need to rush it.
I have no idea about the E60 M5, but I do strongly believe that the E9x M3 is nearing the bottom of its depreciation curve. The S65 engine and either transmission (DCT is amazing tech and 6MT will hold its value for the purists - I've owned both) is the gold standard for the M3. Now might not be a bad time to get into a low 20s example in decent condition. Even if it has higher miles, you can plan on doing rod bearings and TAs down the road if you can resist modding it for a year or so (or buy a lightly modded car to begin with), and you may not lose any money when you decide to move on.

I do agree with what others have said, if you really only have 21k, this probably isn't the car for you. But I don't agree that you'll find clean sorted out cars in the low 20s 5 years from now. This is just an opinion though, of course
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      02-26-2019, 07:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRAT3D View Post
Hello all,
I have been an M enthusiast for many years now, but I am finally at the point where I can afford to buy a new car at the end of this coming summer. My price range, depending on exactly how much money I can make working this summer, is most likely going to be everything up to 20-21k max, but preferably somewhere around 18-19 (leaves room for some initial mods and possibly maintenance). I have always dreamed of owning an E92 M3, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't give me some maintenance worries within my price range. That being said, there are two other cars that I'm considering, each with their own reliability problems, being the E60 M5 and the E46 M3. I'm drawn to the E60 and the E92 a lot more than the E46 because of their high-revving and amazing-sounding motors, but I am still considering the E46 because of its superior driving feel and the generally lower pricing on it. I am going to be living in the Los Angeles area for the next few years, so I am looking at DCT/SMG models due to obvious traffic reasons and my personal love for the DCT gearbox. I have done a lot of my own work on my current E39, and I plan on being able to do most of the required maintenance on my next car. Any suggestions for this specific case (specifically comparing the difference in maintenance costs for an E92 vs. an E60)?
My advice would be to get the newer designed car, the e92.

Also, find a private sale and negotiate the price - the deal I got was lucky, but the fact I was paying cash made the seller more inclined to accept a lower offer for a quick transaction.
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      02-26-2019, 07:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin///mlee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatth View Post
TBH, I wouldn't look at any of those cars with that budget. You're just not going to get a very clean example, and will end up in a tight spot come maintenance time.

Common saying on the E46M boards over the last 5 years ... the car will cost you $30K no matter what. You either pay for it up front, or in maintenance in short order.

I would get something like GTI and save up for a few more years. Soon you'll find clean sorted out cars for low $20Ks. Right now I think they're just over that, though.

It's not worth the financial headache if you're really on a budget. The cars will always be around and they made enough E92s to always find clean, low mile examples in a spec you like. No need to rush it.
I have no idea about the E60 M5, but I do strongly believe that the E9x M3 is nearing the bottom of its depreciation curve. The S65 engine and either transmission (DCT is amazing tech and 6MT will hold its value for the purists - I've owned both) is the gold standard for the M3. Now might not be a bad time to get into a low 20s example in decent condition. Even if it has higher miles, you can plan on doing rod bearings and TAs down the road if you can resist modding it for a year or so (or buy a lightly modded car to begin with), and you may not lose any money when you decide to move on.

I do agree with what others have said, if you really only have 21k, this probably isn't the car for you. But I don't agree that you'll find clean sorted out cars in the low 20s 5 years from now. This is just an opinion though, of course
I agree, the E9x is a modern classic for sure. E46's are holding the $18k line pretty good so I think any well maintained E9x examples will be sought after.
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      02-26-2019, 07:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by FitzgJ74 View Post
My advice would be to get the newer designed car, the e92.

Also, find a private sale and negotiate the price - the deal I got was lucky, but the fact I was paying cash made the seller more inclined to accept a lower offer for a quick transaction.
Agreed on this. Coming from two E46 M3s, one SMG and one 6MT, I can say that SMG is garbage compared to DCT; I can't stress how much you don't want SMG. Also a good condition 6MT E46 in LA is going to run you at least in the 15-20K range, and it's still going to be a 13+ year old car with maintenance to match.
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      02-26-2019, 07:28 PM   #15
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I do think we need some more info. We've all been quick to judge (myself included).

You say you'll have to work all summer to reach the max budget of 21k. Does that mean work all summer to make the cash to purchase outright? If so, that's very different than working all summer to afford the down payment on a 21k car. Please clarify.
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      02-26-2019, 07:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd501 View Post
Agreed on this. Coming from two E46 M3s, one SMG and one 6MT, I can say that SMG is garbage compared to DCT; I can't stress how much you don't want SMG. Also a good condition 6MT E46 in LA is going to run you at least in the 15-20K range, and it's still going to be a 13+ year old car with maintenance to match.
Smg being the precursor to dkg technology is not bad if you know how to drive it, given I would prefer a manual. My brother has an e60 m5 with an smg and when he drives the car it’s really not bad because he drives it like the manual it is and not expecting it to work like an automatic.
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      02-26-2019, 07:31 PM   #17
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Smg being the precursor to dkg technology is not bad if you know how to drive it, given I would prefer a manual. My brother has an e60 m5 with an smg and when he drives the car it’s really not bad because he drives it like the manual it is and not expecting it to work like an automatic.
It's more-so the god awful reliability paired with the mediocre performance. If it was bulletproof, but performed the way it does, it wouldn't be met with such criticism.
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      02-26-2019, 07:52 PM   #18
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Its definitely an expensive car for 'milestone' maintenance... the routine e9x ~80-100K mile items are pretty pricey if one isn't a DIYer. I don't have the time or tools to learn how to do things like valve cover gaskets, DCT service, oil changes, fuel breather valve, oil housing gasket, etc.. but thanks to this amazing forum of very smart M enthusiasts, I have saved myself a lot of money by being able to recognize things and identify problem areas to tackle before they become a real issue.

I actually think that a high mileage, well maintained car could be affordable on a "Budget" IF one is a wrench head and willing to do the work.. most of my repairs/PM that I've spent money on appear to be mostly time/labor cost...So if you can find a good used, higher mileage e9x and are willing to work on it yourself, I say go for it. I really wish I was more handy, but that's on my list for a future hobby when things slow down.

go for it. YOLO
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      02-26-2019, 08:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd501 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzgJ74 View Post
My advice would be to get the newer designed car, the e92.

Also, find a private sale and negotiate the price - the deal I got was lucky, but the fact I was paying cash made the seller more inclined to accept a lower offer for a quick transaction.
Agreed on this. Coming from two E46 M3s, one SMG and one 6MT, I can say that SMG is garbage compared to DCT; I can't stress how much you don't want SMG. Also a good condition 6MT E46 in LA is going to run you at least in the 15-20K range, and it's still going to be a 13+ year old car with maintenance to match.
Or go for the manual to negate the risk of any big trans repair bills - you won't have any issues with a bmw MT, not for a long time anyway. MT is best on this car.
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      02-26-2019, 08:37 PM   #20
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the e60 m5 with smg is probably in the top 3 bmw's ever made that you DONT want to own out of warranty!! stay away! e46 m3 with smg is troublesome as well, and prehistoric in all aspects in comparison to the DCT of the e9x...
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      02-26-2019, 09:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGatsby View Post
I do think we need some more info. We've all been quick to judge (myself included).

You say you'll have to work all summer to reach the max budget of 21k. Does that mean work all summer to make the cash to purchase outright? If so, that's very different than working all summer to afford the down payment on a 21k car. Please clarify.
that statement alone is enough to draw conclusions... work all summer? as opposed to what? not work? i'm willing to bet the op is about 19 or 20 and wants to spend 99% of his money on a car he can't afford to maintain when the first check engine light hits.
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      02-26-2019, 09:20 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by MrGatsby View Post
I do think we need some more info. We've all been quick to judge (myself included).

You say you'll have to work all summer to reach the max budget of 21k. Does that mean work all summer to make the cash to purchase outright? If so, that's very different than working all summer to afford the down payment on a 21k car. Please clarify.
I will be paying for the car in cash.
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