The M Division sells its soul

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Downgrade to Porsche?......A Porsche is anything but a downgrade. If anything it's an upgrade.

Yes, it depends of course what Porsche, but anything other than a 911 to me is a downgrade (w/o considering Cayannes, Panameras or Carrera GT of course). As for the base 911?? Well, certainly not a downgrade but is a sideways movement where some thing are better and some are not. Considering stock 911 GT3, 911TT, GT2 and so on, vs our stock M3 is most definitely an upgrade without this list being exhaustive. But you get the picture.

Now, non stock is a hole different ball game, say 9ff Cayman or Ruff is something out of this world!! Lol!! Dinan stroker or RD RS46 Club Sport? I personally like it better than a 911tt for instance and so on.

[DiVinci]

Originally Posted by footie

In my honest opinion, if you complain about the evolution of the M brand and threaten to switch loyalities then you can't rightly call yourself an M fan at all.

So based on the reations we have had over the last few months I imagine this will be a very lonely place in a couple of years.

i respect your opinion.

my personal views on things have changed, i still love M cars as much as i did 20 years ago, infact maybe even 20 times more but that does not mean i have to be brand loyal, arent we all "car" enthusiasts at the end of the day?

there are some good, some bad, some ugly and then a prius

[DiVinci]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

And some of who were not . I'm on an M3 just because it has a NA V8. I don't like anything other than a NA V8 on my 'toy' car, so this is my first and last M3. To me is more about how it sounds and drives than all out power and performance. I couldn't care less if a quad-turbo Civic SSi blows my doors off; my M3 has all the performance I'll ever need. Yeah, it's not perfect by any means, but all cars have shortcomings. For the money, it's a great value IMO. Just hope it turns out to be reliable so I can keep it for a loooooong time .

and if they do go F/I and you end up selling ur M to get something else that will cater for ur needs, will you find yourself on a M3 forum in the future complaining about the route that they have chosen?

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by footie

In my honest opinion, if you complain about the evolution of the M brand and threaten to switch loyalities then you can't rightly call yourself an M fan at all.

So based on the reations we have had over the last few months I imagine this will be a very lonely place in a couple of years.

Hmmm, I don´t know about this one. These are only cars, its not like it is war and you are changing loyalties between nations! lol!! When it comes down to products, I think you can be a fan as long as you want and switch for whatever reason compels you to do so. Maybe you didn´t like the stitching anymore, maybe you just don´t like them period. Its a free market and I love that there are options and one is able to do what they want. I am as much an M fan as I am an AMG or Ferrari or whatever fan, I, for now, prefer my M to x, y and z car but maybe tomorrow I will change my mind. Its our money. Enjoy it!!

[DiVinci]

Originally Posted by KonigsTiger

Hmmm, I don´t know about this one. These are only cars, its not like it is war and you are changing loyalties between nations! lol!! When it comes down to products, I think you can be a fan as long as you want and switch for whatever reason compels you do to so. Maybe you didn´t like the stitching anymore, maybe you just don´t like them period. Its a free market and I love that here are options and one is able to do what they want. I am as much an M fan as I am an AMG or Ferrari or whatever fan, I, for now, prefer my M to x, y and z, maybe tomorrow I will change my mind. Its our money. Enjoy it!!

+1000

[URBAN LEGEND]

10 pages by friday the 18th of december. I called it.

[DiVinci]

Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND

10 pages by friday the 18th of december. I called it.

this is the perfect opportunity to get my post count up.... mwahahaha

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by footie

So what have we all learned from these multiple threads and thousands of posts?

1: The N/A fans will never want their M cars to be equipped with FI no matter how good it could possibly be.

2: The FI fans welcome the switch because they want more low end torque.

Wow.............................progess.

Footie, bring your opinion on all day, but at least quote us accurately. Many of us so called "N/A" fans are not just N/A fans, but more so fans of high-revving engine. If BMW gave me a small displacement engine with small trubos and high-revving engine, I would STFU. But, to give me some low-revving engine, just not my cup of tea. Yes, I love N/A motors for excitement and passion they invoke, but I realize times may be changing, fine, so at least give me a revver, not some low revving turb'oed engine. I have one of those, and yes, its fun to drive around town, but it is simply that, a everyday car that is really nice to drive.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Periokid]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Downgrade to Porsche?......A Porsche is anything but a downgrade. If anything it's an upgrade.

Agreed.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

What's the point? Well, just that there is much more to a car than how fast it is or how much better it is than its outgoing counterpart. To me this fact is elementary. People simply like what they like. Everyone has preferences, philosophies, beliefs, wants and desires. Everyone - even those who seem to think that the people expressing these ideals are being silly or childish.

Don't always agree with you, but so well said, like you were reading my mind.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Footie, bring your opinion on all day, but at least quote us accurately. Many of us so called "N/A" founds are N/A fans, but more so fans of high-revving engine. The gave me a smalled displacement engine with smal trubos and high-revving engine, I would STFU. But, to give me some low-revving enginge, just not my cup of tea. Yes, I love N/A motors for excitement and passion they invoke, but I realize times may be changing, fine, so at least give me a revver, not some low revving turb'oed engine. I have one of those, and yes, its fun to drive around town, but it is simply that, a everyday car that is really nice to drive.

Cheers,
e46e92

Exactly. Same thing as those who like to row their own gears; it's not all about hp/tq but rather what you enjoy driving. Newer tech may be "better" from a performance (or environmental perspective), but that doesn't mean it's universally better in all dimensions (what some folks enjoy as a visceral experience being one).

I really do have an open mind and I will certainly give the next M3 a drive or two before making up my mind. Who knows, maybe I'll like it better. I doubt that will be the case if it's low revving, but I've been wrong before about things. We'll just have to wait and see.

[///FCB]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

And some of who were not . I'm on an M3 just because it has a NA V8. I don't like anything other than a NA V8 on my 'toy' car, so this is my first and last M3. To me is more about how it sounds and drives than all out power and performance. I couldn't care less if a quad-turbo Civic SSi blows my doors off; my M3 has all the performance I'll ever need. Yeah, it's not perfect by any means, but all cars have shortcomings. For the money, it's a great value IMO. Just hope it turns out to be reliable so I can keep it for a loooooong time .

+1!!!!

[330CIZHP]

Well said. I agree with everything you said.

Yes, BMW for years mocked AMG for using forced induction calling it "cheating" and frowning upon it as a hurdle in the way of engineering and building perfect engines for the chassis. BMW always said M cars will never have forced induction since it hinders the throttle sensitivity, does not entertain all of the driver's senses and creates lag in response. BMW for years quoted their "M Philosophy" as daily driven cars that could be driven to race tracks on the weekend and run exceptional lap times and that M cars must entertain all of the senses of the drivers and it must have a "race car like sound" with high-revving engines and low-mass inertia so that the engine cranks up to the rev limit very quickly.

Oh and people bringing the F40 in this picture have no clue what they are talking about. The F40 like the R34 GT-R could rev up to 10,000 rpm and make the most soul stirring F1 race car sounds anyone could imagine even with turbos. That is why I love both these cars because despite turbos, they needed to be revved the heck out of the engine for power. The downside is it is extremely expensive to make turbocharged high-revving engines because the internals need to be strengthened, which is why BMW has distanced itself from high-revving engines.

Please don't compare these cars with low-revving, turbocharged M cars with these masterpiece cars.


For some people using sport bike as the perfect example for high-revving vehicles, some of us do not like or "feel safe" revving the heck out of a sport bike out in the open air and risking our lives. We like to have the safety of being in a vehicle so stop putting sport bikes in a debate about high-revving cars. Thanks.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You're right of course, but it won't stop there.

You see, when the 2020 M3 arrives with four cylinder diesel hybrid power with CVT, the same people who are all geeked up about the turbocharged F3x M3 will be up-in-arms about the switch. When queried about how the change is any different from the switch to FI a generation earlier the answers will be something like "yeah - but at least it wasn't electric" or "the M3 cannot have a Prius motor!". This, despite the new power-train offering 500 hp and 500 ft-lb.

For that matter, many of the same people who do not have issue with the low revving turbocharged motors going into future M cars will nevertheless dismiss those same cars with extreme prejudice if they offer no traditional manual transmission option. These people would also never think of owning a GT-R or F458, even though they are/will be arguably two of the most celebrated performance machines ever to exist.

What's the point? Well, just that there is much more to a car than how fast it is or how much better it is than its outgoing counterpart. To me this fact is elementary. People simply like what they like. Everyone has preferences, philosophies, beliefs, wants and desires. Everyone - even those who seem to think that the people expressing these ideals are being silly or childish.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

BMW has distanced itself from high-revving engines.

Please don't compare these cars with low-revving, turbocharged M cars with these masterpiece cars.

So far the M division has come out with two low-revving SUVs. I think the jury is out on cars.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

So far the M division has come out with two low-revving SUVs. I think the jury is out on cars.

The writing is very clearly on the wall for the F1x M5 and M6. Even if BMW changes the S63 from its current form for those cars, certainly the engine was never designed to rev to 8k RPM or higher. And to re-engineer it to do so would likely be too costly for these cars, especially if they want it to be as clean and efficient as it is in its current form.

For the M3, technically speaking you are correct. No one (outside BMW) knows what to expect from that engine yet. In theory they could do a high revving inline 6 similar to the S54 but with turbochargers. But this seems extremely unlikely at this point.

[jbeene]

My next car will be a GT3.

The M will remain my daily driver until it is no longer serviceable.

I'll be an anachnonism with my manual transmission, rear wheel drive and naturally aspirated engine.

And I'll love every minute of it.

[footie]

I'm glad I gave some people a wake up call (so to speak) with those two posts which appear to have done exactly what I intended.

I simply made that statement to get those kind of reaction because too many here were making comments that it would be their last M like what Ruff suggested but fact is they are simply cars and they continue to evolution and enviornment among other things effect the directions manufacturers MUST take but it doesn't mean that their underlinning character has to dramatically change.

Too many demand high revving without actually understand what that means in an FI engine. The likelihood is that the F10 M5 will redline over 7k, that is mighty close to the old E39 M5 which in many people's eyes was the best M5 ever. The new M3 will be smaller with fewer cylinders so it's likely that it will rev north of 7.5k which again is getting on for what the E46 did and better the most of the previous M3.

So guys, get a grip and have faith in the engineers that have brought you the wonderful cars you have enjoyed and loved all these years.

[330CIZHP]

I can bet the new M cars will follow the X5 M and X6 M. High-revving turbo cars are extremely expensive to produce since the internals need to be designed differently for it to operate reliably for a very long period of time. As of now, BMW cannot even get a low-revving turbo right with all the HPFP issues in 335, a high-revving turbo engine will have far worse reliability issues.

Here is X5 M revving to redline. That is how the next M5 is going to sound:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tags/na...-exhaust-note/

BMW is getting away from high-revving cars in order to avoid the need for short gearing, final drive due to lots of torque at the low end and to reduce the emissions.

All of the spy videos showing M5 lapping the Nurburgurging (with the big hood hump and quad exhausts) show it to be a turbocharged low-revving car much like the X5 M with no engine note to speak of or write home of.

I can bet the next generation M5 and M3 will have a rev limit of 7000 rpm only and due to slow piston speeds and low compression, it will not sound anything like a racing car.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I can bet the next generation M5 and M3 will have a rev limit of 7000 rpm only and due to slow piston speeds and low compression, it will not sound anything like a racing car.

I think they might raise the compression and lower the boost, like Porsche did in the new turbo.

[ruff]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...sizing-feature

[BimmerBoomer]

Very uncharacteristic of Car & Driver to publish such a thoroughly disingenuous article.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

This debate probably will never end. Even when the Fxx M3 is destroying the E9x model in every test imaginable, there will still be N/A guys complaining...

Big +1, as I have been saying all along.

Originally Posted by footie

N/A fans will never want their M cars to be equipped with FI no matter how good it could possibly be.

Absurdity. Both those well versed in the technologies and fanboys alike will continue to flock to the car precisely because of the point just above.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Here is X5 M revving to redline. That is how the next M5 is going to sound

Wow is that audio clip for real? Is that flatulence in between shifts, unreal. However, if you think either of the following is true you are sorely mistaken:

1. Exhaust system design does not have a huge influence on sound.
2. BWM will use the same exhaust system on the XMs and Ms.