BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
BPM
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-19-2014, 12:09 AM   #23
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
don't they take the helper spring out?
The whole point of this thread is gaining clearance without removing the helper spring. There is no need to shorten the main spring if the helper is removed. Please read my original post.
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 02:53 PM   #24
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
United_States
338
Rep
1,805
Posts

Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
What size spacer worked for you? Considering clubsports but I don't want to run other than 275 up front.

Also interested in why spacer solution isn't preferable over clubsport modification for owners
I ran 12mm spacer with KW CS 3 way, so did str8flexin
I ran 275 and 285 up front ad08r and RS3
he ran Hankook TD 285
__________________
17' M2 DCT - KW CS - Re71r - Carbotech
BW C13 - 1:57:2
ACS - 1:49:6
WSIR - 1:30:6
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 05:28 PM   #25
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKosherStogie View Post
I ran 12mm spacer with KW CS 3 way, so did str8flexin
I ran 275 and 285 up front ad08r and RS3
he ran Hankook TD 285
On what size and offset wheels? I too can run 275's on the front (and have many times) but I have not had success with these BFG tires on 10" et25 wheels. I guess I could with a 10mm spacer and more than -3.0 camber. Do you know your camber setting? I'm not doing this for a track-only car. I want to be able to run street friendly camber... on the street. I adjust my camber to track settings when I go to the track.

285mm ad08r and TD's are only available in 30 series (285/30/18). That's a 1" smaller diameter.... Different situation.
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 04-22-2014 at 12:26 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 06:06 PM   #26
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKosherStogie View Post
I ran 12mm spacer with KW CS 3 way, so did str8flexin
I ran 275 and 285 up front ad08r and RS3
he ran Hankook TD 285
On what size and offset wheels? I too can run 275's on the front (and have many times) but I have not had success with these tires on 10" et25 wheels. I guess I could with more than -3.0 camber. Do you know your camber setting? I'm not doing this for a track-only car. I want to be able to run street friendly camber.

285mm ad08r and TD's are only available in 30 series (285/30/18). That's a 1" smaller diameter.... Different situation.
Camber has nothing to do with clearance regarding inner tire and spring perch.

I run 18x20 et 25 with a 5mm spacer and stud kit and rs3 275 with -2.6 camber up front. I had to raise it to get clearance before the spacers since i rubbed the purple off the perch down to the metal

With the spacers its no longer a problem. Which reminds me i need to go lower my car a bit.
Appreciate 1
      04-19-2014, 06:14 PM   #27
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
Camber has nothing to do with clearance regarding inner tire and spring perch.

I run 18x20 et 25 with a 5mm spacer and stud kit and rs3 275 with -2.6 camber up front. I had to raise it to get clearance before the spacers since i rubbed the purple off the perch down to the metal

With the spacers its no longer a problem. Which reminds me i need to go lower my car a bit.
I know that... Camber allows for outer fender clearance. Add spacer for inner clearance then outer clearance to the fender becomes an issue... Add camber to deal with that. Hankook RS3's are far narrower than G-Force Rivals. As I stated above, the wheel couldn't even get on the hub with a 5mm spacer... My picture above shows inner clearance with a 10mm spacer (et15)... 2mm max. Then I added camber... Got to -3 and they still didn't fit on the OUTSIDE. I'm wanting to get away from Hankooks because they don't make a 295/35/18 tire which is my preference for the rear.
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 04-19-2014 at 06:29 PM..
Appreciate 1
      04-19-2014, 06:16 PM   #28
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
Camber has nothing to do with clearance regarding inner tire and spring perch.

I run 18x20 et 25 with a 5mm spacer and stud kit and rs3 275 with -2.6 camber up front. I had to raise it to get clearance before the spacers since i rubbed the purple off the perch down to the metal

With the spacers its no longer a problem. Which reminds me i need to go lower my car a bit.
I know that... Camber allows for outer clearance. Add spacer for inner clearance then outer clearance to the fender becomes an issue... Add camber to deal with that. Hankook RS3's are far narrower than G-Force Rivals. As I stated above, the wheel couldn't even get on the hub with a 5mm spacer... My picture above shows inner clearance with a 10mm spacer... 2mm max. Then I added camber... Got to -3 and they still didn't fit on the OUTSIDE. I'm wanting to get away from Hankooks because they don't make a 295/35/18 tire which is my preference for the rear.
I guess then if its a street car as well why the huge grippy tires?
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 06:25 PM   #29
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
I guess then if its a street car as well why the huge grippy tires?
Because I want to run the same size tires on the street and track. That way if I damage a wheel or tire I always have a spare. I also have the option of driving to the track with two spare wheels (instead of stuffing a second set of wheels in the car).

Not to mention why not add inner clearance if it doesn't negatively impact anything? Wouldn't you rather avoid spacers?
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 04-19-2014 at 06:38 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 07:48 PM   #30
JEllis
Major General
JEllis's Avatar
529
Rep
5,498
Posts

Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth

iTrader: (4)

Interesting read.

As an aside I recently switched to Swift springs on my TC Kline coilovers on my E36 M3. My motivation was also to go to a shorter front spring (TCK does not offer a shorter 400lb spring than I had). I am very happy with the Swift springs and from my research Swift has an excellent reputation (extremely reliable spring rates). I am looking forward to updates!
__________________
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic14547_7.gif
Instagram: jellismotorwerks
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 08:58 PM   #31
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
I guess then if its a street car as well why the huge grippy tires?
Because I want to run the same size tires on the street and track. That way if I damage a wheel or tire I always have a spare. I also have the option of driving to the track with two spare wheels (instead of stuffing a second set of wheels in the car).

Not to mention why not add inner clearance if it doesn't negatively impact anything? Wouldn't you rather avoid spacers?
True i just got a spacer and stud kit and left it.

But now youre making want to buy two more of the same wheels lol.
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2014, 11:48 PM   #32
Richbot
Major General
2740
Rep
5,478
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (5)

Kindof silly that you have to buy a suspension system and then immediately chuck the springs and collars to get the same clearance as stock. marketing decision no doubt, as I'm sure KW is capable of offering it that way if they choose to

Sticking the tires out in the wind and increasing scrub and bump steer just to run a strut that left the factory half-baked would piss me off
__________________
Appreciate 2
slcook541859.50
      04-20-2014, 12:02 AM   #33
s85e90
Brigadier General
192
Rep
3,633
Posts

Drives: black e90
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: everywhere

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Kindof silly that you have to buy a suspension system and then immediately chuck the springs and collars to get the same clearance as stock. marketing decision no doubt, as I'm sure KW is capable of offering it that way if they choose to

Sticking the tires out in the wind and increasing scrub just to run a kit that wasn't fully baked at the factory would piss me off
It's not so much marketing as it is the shape/design. My coils do the same and are a diff brand. IMO I don't care for a 275 front tire either. tom@eas thanks; maybe I'll be in touch. My clearance is strut perch to inner wheel barrel w/ 18s. Not the tire, the actual wheel. But with my 18x9.5 et 22 it fits perfect.
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 12:07 PM   #34
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

The verdict is in.... I installed the Eibach springs and everything turned out great (I have 100+ miles on them so far). 140mm Eibach springs are plug and play. No milling of spring perches needed. Eibach lists their spring ID as 60mm while KW claims 61mm. Both springs Inside Diameter measured almost exactly the same (slightly more than 61mm) when measured with a caliper.

No need for new helper springs, no need to mill any perches... Just swap your 170mm KW main spring for a 140mm Eibach spring and your done! I see zero advantage to going with Swift springs for this conversion.

No more spacers, no more silly camber settings needed to fit both my 18x9.5 et22 wheels with 275/35/18 tires, and my 18x10 et25 wheels with 275/35/18 tires. There is zero perceivable difference in ride quality with this conversion (nor should there be considering I have not changed the spring rate). The only downside to this conversion is that you lose some of your ride height adjustment range. The remaining range is perfect for me so it is a non-issue.

More detailed Install pictures to follow.

A BIG thank you to Malek at MRF Engineering! I can't say enough good things about Malek. He knows the car so dang well, he's honest, fair and does great work. I highly recommend him!
FYI - I'm in no way sponsored by MRF, I have paid for all of the work that MRF has performed on my car. My recommendation has been 100% earned. No BS.





__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 04-22-2014 at 04:20 PM..
Appreciate 1
      04-22-2014, 12:36 PM   #35
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Kindof silly that you have to buy a suspension system and then immediately chuck the springs and collars to get the same clearance as stock. marketing decision no doubt, as I'm sure KW is capable of offering it that way if they choose to

Sticking the tires out in the wind and increasing scrub and bump steer just to run a strut that left the factory half-baked would piss me off
I see no marketing advantage for KW. It's really only a disadvantage because their suspension has less inner clearance than some of their competitors. They are not building them this way to sell spring replacements considering it sounded like I was one of the first people to ever call them about this issue and they were looking for feedback from me about its success. Initially they were discouraging me to make the change because they hadn't tested it. I think their main motivation for the original design is adjustment range. I have reduced my ride height adjustment range by making this change to shorter springs. As I stated above, it's a non-issue for me because the remaining range suites me well.
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 04-22-2014 at 12:59 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 01:24 PM   #36
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

is there anything else to consider when going to a shorter spring with same spring rates? this sounds like a simple route I would like to check out too....im looking for higher spring rates. because racecar

waiting for more pics!
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 01:42 PM   #37
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
is there anything else to consider when going to a shorter spring with same spring rates? this sounds like a simple route I would like to check out too....im looking for higher spring rates. because racecar

waiting for more pics!
The higher spring rate version of the same length spring may have less travel which may or may not be a factor depending on the rate you choose and the ride height you desire. This is due to the fact that in some instances a larger diameter wire is used to achieve the increased spring rate. A larger spring diameter wire with the same number of coils results in a taller bottoming point and less travel. Imagine a stack of 10mm wires vs a stack of 11mm wires...
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M

Last edited by slicer; 09-20-2014 at 09:55 AM..
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 01:49 PM   #38
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

thanks..let us know how it goes...jsut when i thought i was good you go and do this.
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 01:55 PM   #39
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
thanks..let us know how it goes...jsut when i thought i was good you go and do this.
I already did.... I installed them yesterday and have driven on them for 100+ miles. They feel exactly the same as the original KW springs... I will be tracking the car on Saturday. I will report back on their performance in that environment. I don't foresee any issues.
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 1
      04-22-2014, 03:01 PM   #40
Malek@MRF
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Malek@MRF's Avatar
United_States
719
Rep
3,735
Posts


Drives: E92 M3, E46 M3, G82 M4
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

iTrader: (5)

This worked out very well. I took some detailed pictures during the spring conversion, I will post them up later today when the shop slows down a bit.
__________________
BMW PERFORMANCE SPECIALISTS. Race Engines. Suspension. F/I. Brakes. Race Preparation. Factory Service. Alignments.
OFFICIAL PARTNERS: KW. MOTON. Brembo. AP Racing. BBS Motorsport. iND. HRE. Turner Motorsport. VAC. BMW Motorsport.

Facebook | Instagram | Yelp! | Flikr
Phone: 949-233-0448 | E-Mail: info@mrfengineering.com
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 03:10 PM   #41
M3ANMACHINE
Admiral
M3ANMACHINE's Avatar
United_States
930
Rep
3,886
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3 + 2014 F15 X5
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (11)

Good stuff! Glad it worked out.

Any pics of the current inner clearance?
__________________
2020 FORD RAPTOR
2014 F15 X5 | M-SPORT
SOLD
2011 SG E90 M3 | 2008 AW E90 M3 | 2004 E46 M3
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2014, 04:26 PM   #42
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ANMACHINE View Post
Good stuff! Glad it worked out.

Any pics of the current inner clearance?
We did not take any pictures of the current inner clearance but I can take some the next time I have the car in the air.

Approximate clearance:

3mm to 4mm with the 10" et25 - 275/35/18 Rivals (previously needed a 10mm spacer)
5mm to 7mm with the 9.5" et22 - 275/35/18 Hankooks (previously needed a 3mm spacer)
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2014, 08:55 AM   #43
Wendall
***Major MammelToe
Wendall's Avatar
United_States
157
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 SG coupe
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
We did not take any pictures of the current inner clearance but I can take some the next time I have the car in the air.

Approximate clearance:

3mm to 4mm with the 10" et25 - 275/35/18 Rivals (previously needed a 10mm spacer)
5mm to 7mm with the 9.5" et22 - 275/35/18 Hankooks (previously needed a 3mm spacer)
What spring rate did you go with? and Part #. please
__________________
E92 M3 SG DCT - AA Filter, Verstraβe Paddles, ECS SS, MH race stud, Stoptech BBK, MR Exhaust,RE Pulley, BPM Tune,Euro bumper and GTS lip, Euro MDM & DCT, KW CS, Recaro PP, TMS Soild Diff Mounts, MRF solid subframe mounts, GTS aero, RPM track built motor.

Appreciate 0
      04-23-2014, 09:28 AM   #44
slicer
Major General
slicer's Avatar
2733
Rep
6,732
Posts

Drives: 'E46 M3 Race Car, '23 X7
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin - Instagram - @slicer_m

iTrader: (39)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendall View Post
What spring rate did you go with? and Part #. please
ERS-H-140-60-0090

Rate: 90nm
Length: 140mm
Inner Diameter: 60mm
__________________
'23 X7
'04 M3 - Fall Line Motorsports Built Race Car - S65 swap, Dry Sump, Bosch Stand-Alone ECU, Drenth Sequential Trans, MCS 3-Way, Flossmann Wide Body, Brembo Motorsports Brakes, Drexler LSD, BBS E88 Etc.
INSTAGRAM - @Slicer_M
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST