Considering a move to Subaru WRX from an F30 328i - dissuade me!

[Nikolas]

Get the STI. You get some serious drivetrain upgrades for not that much more. I've owned 2. My last one I gave to my son.

[overcoil]

^

I thought the wrx had a weak firewall that deformed when you pressed the clutch.

[Biginboca]

The turbo lag in the WRX is annoying and I have driven one. Coming from F30 maybe you are used to that lag but I have n/a cars and it was very pronounced to me and it seems more than the f30.

If you can live with that it’s a decent car for the price but it would not make my list I would go for the camaro ss 1le if you can swing to about $40k. (SS1LE > M2 btw and significantly cheaper).

If not the v6 camaro 1le is still n/a and faster more fun than the wrx on track and straight line... and with zero turbo lag to boot.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

The turbo lag in the WRX is annoying and I have driven one. Coming from F30 maybe you are used to that lag but I have n/a cars and it was very pronounced to me and it seems more than the f30.

Modern turbo lag (BMW) is nothing like the Subaru, which has to kick up to 2800-3000 before power really comes on. Mostly the lag on the BMW is throttle response, shifting response, not having the car in sport or sport+, etc. With full torque available down to around 1500 and with how fast a turbo spins up, it's not turbo lag in a BMW. If you've driven the WRX, you know what true turbo-lag is. Push pedal...nothing...nothing...nothing...BAM fsm kicks the car in the a$$.

[Rampant]

Turbo lag is non existent in the "small turbo" WRX as long as you use the gears like any GOOD driver should be doing anyway.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by Rampant

Turbo lag is non existent in the "small turbo" WRX as long as you use the gears like any GOOD driver should be doing anyway.

Really? You don’t believe me I said I drove it. I downshifted. There’s more lag than any modern car I’ve driven it reminded me of a 1986 300zx turbo manual that I drove once.

Maybe you should also write the editor of Motor Trend to let them know they made a mistake and the “significant turbo lag” they experienced is really “non existent”...

[B58 parts]

Any car .. you're going to have to downshift and wind it out a bit to keep it in the power band. I don't see a problem. We're talking 2500 rpm, not 5500. It sounds like a non issue to me. When you want to stay in the boost 1800 rpm isn't really on the table. "a rev-matched downshift" ... as opposed to what .. the idiot move where you ride the clutch and use the wheels to bring the revs up?


Also, if the STI really still has the EJ 2.5 ... I wouldn't get involved, that thing is so old and out of date. It's also lousy to work on.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by YuminNuman

Any car .. you're going to have to downshift and wind it out a bit to keep it in the power band. I don't see a problem. We're talking 2500 rpm, not 5500. It sounds like a non issue to me. When you want to stay in the boost 1800 rpm isn't really on the table. "a rev-matched downshift" ... as opposed to what .. the idiot move where you ride the clutch and use the wheels to bring the revs up?


Also, if the STI really still has the EJ 2.5 ... I wouldn't get involved, that thing is so old and out of date. It's also lousy to work on.

It’s not a problem it’s an annoyance as I said. When I drove M2 manual didn’t notice lag it’s very slight, actually almost non existent. But the wrx is very noticeable that’s my point. Like I said if you are good with that then it’s a solid choice. The OP asked for any reasons why he shouldn’t buy a WRX my comments were for him.

[thasuperdude]

Originally Posted by ravil

Going to test drive the WRX today, we'll see how it goes!

Survey says?

I left Subaru after owning one for in one form or another for 20 years. This is my first M car. I think if I HAD bought an STi over the WRX back in 2005 I'd still have it. I love my car and wouldn't trade it for the world now, but I tuned the drivability out of the WRX trying to make it an STi minus .5L. So my theory now is get a car you don't need to dick with. Just drive it

However, both BMW and Subaru have amazing support groups if you do find the need to tweek.

[Rampant]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Really? You don’t believe me I said I drove it. I downshifted. There’s more lag than any modern car I’ve driven it reminded me of a 1986 300zx turbo manual that I drove once.

Maybe you should also write the editor of Motor Trend to let them know they made a mistake and the “significant turbo lag” they experienced is really “non existent”...

LOL

My Evo didn't come on boost until 3,000 rpm and was fantastic to drive with absolutely no lag. If you plan ahead, using your observational skill as a driver, heel'n'toe downshift that you've already recognised that you'll need because you were using superior awareness to avoid having to use low revs and full throttle in a reactive scenario.

Our other car is a 997 Turbo with variable inlet turbos and that has lag, but again, use your skill as a driver to plan ahead and recognise when you'll need a more responsive gear, and the lag is completely non-existent.

NO decent driver should be expecting *any* engine to give its best at only 2,500 rpm. That's ridiculous and certainly no minus point to level at *any* car.

To illustrate my point, just take any automatic or DCT car on the market for a drive in auto mode. Cruise at 2,500 rpm and give it full throttle. What will the gearbox do? That's right. Kickdown. It is programmed to react to the driver. In a manual car or DCT car being driven in manual mode the driver should have the awareness to drop a gear or 2 *before* planting the throttle - proactively.

Saying a turbo car has "lag" at less than 2,500 rpm is a non issue to my mind and I don't really care what motoring journalist you care to quote, because quite simply they're just filling column inches with irrelevance if they write that.

This is all just my own opinion of course. YMMV.

All the best

Mark H

[c1pher]

Me personally if you’re considering the WRX, I’d rather consider Focus RS or Golf R or even an S3.

[B58 parts]

Originally Posted by Rampant

LOL

My Evo didn't come on boost until 3,000 rpm and was fantastic to drive with absolutely no lag. If you plan ahead, using your observational skill as a driver, heel'n'toe downshift that you've already recognised that you'll need because you were using superior awareness to avoid having to use low revs and full throttle in a reactive scenario.

Our other car is a 997 Turbo with variable inlet turbos and that has lag, but again, use your skill as a driver to plan ahead and recognise when you'll need a more responsive gear, and the lag is completely non-existent.

NO decent driver should be expecting *any* engine to give its best at only 2,500 rpm. That's ridiculous and certainly no minus point to level at *any* car.

To illustrate my point, just take any automatic or DCT car on the market for a drive in auto mode. Cruise at 2,500 rpm and give it full throttle. What will the gearbox do? That's right. Kickdown. It is programmed to react to the driver. In a manual car or DCT car being driven in manual mode the driver should have the awareness to drop a gear or 2 *before* planting the throttle - proactively.

Saying a turbo car has "lag" at less than 2,500 rpm is a non issue to my mind and I don't really care what motoring journalist you care to quote, because quite simply they're just filling column inches with irrelevance if they write that.

This is all just my own opinion of course. YMMV.

All the best

Mark H

Completely agree and thought this didn't even need to be posted out loud ... basic stuff that goes without saying.

OMG what do you mean I can't just slog around in 6th gear and stay in boost.


And the Audi S3 is an AUTO only, so it's junk. But otherwise would be a good one to consider.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by Rampant

LOL

My Evo didn't come on boost until 3,000 rpm and was fantastic to drive with absolutely no lag. If you plan ahead, using your observational skill as a driver, heel'n'toe downshift that you've already recognised that you'll need because you were using superior awareness to avoid having to use low revs and full throttle in a reactive scenario.

Our other car is a 997 Turbo with variable inlet turbos and that has lag, but again, use your skill as a driver to plan ahead and recognise when you'll need a more responsive gear, and the lag is completely non-existent.

NO decent driver should be expecting *any* engine to give its best at only 2,500 rpm. That's ridiculous and certainly no minus point to level at *any* car.

To illustrate my point, just take any automatic or DCT car on the market for a drive in auto mode. Cruise at 2,500 rpm and give it full throttle. What will the gearbox do? That's right. Kickdown. It is programmed to react to the driver. In a manual car or DCT car being driven in manual mode the driver should have the awareness to drop a gear or 2 *before* planting the throttle - proactively.

Saying a turbo car has "lag" at less than 2,500 rpm is a non issue to my mind and I don't really care what motoring journalist you care to quote, because quite simply they're just filling column inches with irrelevance if they write that.

This is all just my own opinion of course. YMMV.

All the best

Mark H

Mark,

You seem to think you are a very skilled driver, that’s great. That doesn’t mean the wrx doesn’t have more lag than its competitors. The facts are what they are.

I suggest you drive a wrx and see what it’s like yourself. The wrx 0-60 is 2 seconds faster than its 5-60. Other turbo cars are a 1.0-1.1 second difference there. Google the times for its competitors and compare. (N/A cars typicall have about .5-.7 seconds difference between 0-60 and 5-60. The extra .3-.5 seconds on the turbo cars is the turbo lag)

The WRX lag is real whether someone wants to live with or adjust their driving is fine but the lag is there my friend.

I find it arrogant of you to assume I can’t drive a car as well as you or lack the experience you have. I’ve only owned manual cars for the last 30 years. I’ve driven the F30 manual 328 the op has (my son has one), the wrx discussed here, the M2 manual discussed here and even the ss1le I mentioned as an alternative. And many others. And I’ve driven every current m car offered with a manual in that version also. I have a good basis for comparisons of these cars, which you quickly dismiss assuming I lack your driving prowess and that means the lag isn’t there.

It’s there

[Never_Enough]

328 is boring so a WRX would be much more fun. Buy my Mazdaspeed6 instead.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Fuel economy?

Seriously though, it was a big turn off when I was eyeing off a WRX instead of the 235. The manual WRX is a 21c/27h EPA rating and the STI is 17c/21h.

I'd buy a Golf R in a heartbeat over both of them. You get the the same as the others but with VW build feel, better economy and super tuneable.

That's what I was going to say...

[CTinline-six]

+1 on them being very different cars. It really depends what you plan on doing with the car.

A girl i'm good friends with has a 2016 WRX. It is a fast car and fun to drive, but I would not want to drive it on long trips. For the price, the interior and ride quality is not worth it. It also looks a bit too boy racer in my opinion.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Rampant

NO decent driver should be expecting *any* engine to give its best at only 2,500 rpm. That's ridiculous and certainly no minus point to level at *any* car.

And yet all of the modern turbo engines from BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and many others, do.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

I suggest you drive a wrx and see what it’s like yourself. The wrx 0-60 is 2 seconds faster than its 5-60. Other turbo cars are a 1.0-1.1 second difference there. Google the times for its competitors and compare. (N/A cars typicall have about .5-.7 seconds difference between 0-60 and 5-60. The extra .3-.5 seconds on the turbo cars is the turbo lag)

Yeah, the Subaru passing-numbers always told the best story. Subaru even had a campaign a few years back when they were telling customers to "not look at our HP numbers, compare our 0-60 numbers", which basically means they were using 5K clutch-drop AWD launches to wring the most out of the car, while the actual performance lagged significantly behind the other makers. Even in stuff like the Legacy, US and other Japanese automakers long ago exceeded the engine output and efficiency that Subaru was manufacturing. They capped their HP at about 250 and never really went to the high-strung 6cyl engines that have become a mainstay of the midsize market.

If you looked at the passing numbers and rolling-5 to 60, it tells a more accurate story. Although this is yet another issue that has gotten better, the WRX and STI have always been pretty low on whp. Short gearing has helped make the most of it, but the original 2.0 was closer to 170whp, the 2.5 block around 190, the 2.5 STI was around 240 or so. They've always had pretty dramatic losses from the drivetrain and have needed massive whp to keep up on the top-end. The new 2.0 WRX is just a fraction away from the STI and of course the new one is DI. IMO, the WRX should be around the 300hp level at least, the STI should be 350-400, again at least. To do this though and make it perform well, they probably have to throw a lot more money into it than they want.

[Red Bread]

I got 7mpg driving a buddy's STI like I drove my M Coupe. It's capable of being quick, but you certainly pay the price for it. Went 75 miles on a tank of gas. Reverted to driving it like a Camry and it got passable mileage. But any one claiming you can drive around the lag in these things is clearly good at making excuses.

[Hammer Werke]

I had a 2005 Sti. Awesome car. They are really meant to be driven in the high rev range. They also need more maintenance than you would think for a japanese car. Oil changes every 3k miles etc. Heat is a big enemy of this subaru. If you do any modding at all you should also do ceramic coatings/heat shields to keep temps down.

My only real bummer with the car was cops. They must had had a briefing about these "sleeper sedans" or the X-games spin etc but I would get pulled over all the time in it.

But drifting it up a snowy mountain roads was some of the most fun I've had in a car.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Hammer Werke

I had a 2005 Sti. Awesome car. They are really meant to be driven in the high rev range. They also need more maintenance than you would think for a japanese car. Oil changes every 3k miles etc. Heat is a big enemy of this subaru. If you do any modding at all you should also do ceramic coatings/heat shields to keep temps down.

My only real bummer with the car was cops. They must had had a briefing about these "sleeper sedans" or the X-games spin etc but I would get pulled over all the time in it.

But drifting it up a snowy mountain roads was some of the most fun I've had in a car.

Not sure cars with huge wings etc count as a sleeper.

[Rampant]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

Mark,

You seem to think you are a very skilled driver, that’s great. That doesn’t mean the wrx doesn’t have more lag than its competitors. The facts are what they are.

I suggest you drive a wrx and see what it’s like yourself. The wrx 0-60 is 2 seconds faster than its 5-60. Other turbo cars are a 1.0-1.1 second difference there. Google the times for its competitors and compare. (N/A cars typicall have about .5-.7 seconds difference between 0-60 and 5-60. The extra .3-.5 seconds on the turbo cars is the turbo lag)

The WRX lag is real whether someone wants to live with or adjust their driving is fine but the lag is there my friend.

I find it arrogant of you to assume I can’t drive a car as well as you or lack the experience you have. I’ve only owned manual cars for the last 30 years. I’ve driven the F30 manual 328 the op has (my son has one), the wrx discussed here, the M2 manual discussed here and even the ss1le I mentioned as an alternative. And many others. And I’ve driven every current m car offered with a manual in that version also. I have a good basis for comparisons of these cars, which you quickly dismiss assuming I lack your driving prowess and that means the lag isn’t there.

It’s there

You misunderstand. I'm not really any more skilled than an average driver really. But having said that, when you consider a bell curve, around 50% of drivers are below average.

What I'm saying is that *if* you drive accordingly - there is zero lag on a WRX. I did drive one. I liked it. I considered changing my Focus RS MkIII for one. I decided on a F80 M3 instead.

What I'm saying is that if you are an average driver, like me, and drive looking a little bit farther up the road than the end of your own bonnet, whether a car exhibits lag or not is irrelevant, because you will already have selected a more responsive gear. Same goes for ANY car, whether it is NA, turbo, or even a devildiesel.

Of course turbo engines exhibit lag. But only if the driver allows it. And if they allow it to happen when they would rather not experience it, then that is on the driver - not the car. Simply poor driving - not a bad car.

My 997 Turbo also has lag. My Evo did. The Focus RS did. But I have yet to "experience" lag in any of those cars when I wanted to accelerate briskly. I also note that my F80 M3 has lag. I'm still running it in and covered 350 miles so far, so I'm cruising in Efficient map on light throttle and D1 mode. There lives the lag monster. But only because I allow it.

Whether a car arrives on boost at 1,500 rpm or 2,000 or 2,500, or 3,000 or even 3,500 is utterly irrelevant to me. Select the appropriate gear for the conditions and you will never meet the lag monster.

I once drove a 1989 Porsche Turbo Supersport. It had 4 gears. My god - *that* had lag. And in that car, lag was difficult to avoid. It was scary as shit. When people deride a car for having turbo lag these days, they really *should* know better. I often suspect that they mention it simply because they subjectively don't like a car yeet there is nothing much else to say that is *objectively* derogatory. It reeks of a hidden agenda.

So. Even though I'm an Evo man, through and through, I can still say with conviction that the WRX is a damn fine car. Some might say it has turbo lag. I say, pah, use the gears as intended.

Slàinte Mhath

Mark H