GTR vs M3. Any reasons to not get a GTR?

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Quacker

You don't care if it's V6, straight 6, turbo, four cylinder etc, so long as it's fast then that is all that matters. The GTR is fast, so shouldn't it fit your criteria?
Don't tell me that something as petty as the "playstation like" screen (which can be turned off), makes it not worth desiring?

Hang on a minute - doesn't the M3 have that very playstation like idrive knob? Jeeeez, what do you know, an M3 owner with idrive bagging a GTR for being "gimmicky and playstation like" That's like Angelina Jolie calling Sienna Miller a slut....

Now now., There's no need to bring iDrive into it. I have to live with the fucking thing. That's bad enough without you reminding me.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Quacker

There is a flaw in your argument. By the time the car lets you know that there is a problem - it's too late.

Doesn't have to be that way - it could do what the 335i does so well: cut power and let you know funny business is going on.

"it should flash a warning, or even tell me in words (text to speech)" - Tell you in words? Seems pretty ricey, gimmicky and playstation like doesn't it? Even the GTR doesn't have that feature..

Actually warn you of a problem when there is one is ricey??? That's the very definition of functionality and the exact opposite of a ricey feature. You either don't seem to have a clear understanding of this, or just trying to be sarcastic.

So by your logic, you wouldn't need to have a tach. All you need is a red light to go on to tell you that you've redline the car.

No - a row of shift lights like some cars do would suffice. Matter of fact, many race cars have this feature.

But in a road car, the tach also substitutes for other things: econo-meter, visual indication of engine speed (and functioning) when you cannot hear it etc.

You probably don't need to have a speedometer also - gets distracting when you are constantly looking at it when trying to obey the speed limit. Just have the car tell you your speed by speech at certain intervals.

Since speed is extremely important to my well being and the well being of other traffic participants, I definitely want it displayed at all times. Just doesn't need to be a big fixed round dial. A heads-up display would be really nice.

You definitely don't need sat nav. Why, with all those playstation like 3D street pictures and turn by turn voice guidance - what a distraction. Just use the good old tried and trusted street map.

Assuming that by street map you mean a paper map - using one while driving is way more distracting than a satnav. But you are partially correct, 99% of the time I don't need one, which is why I didn't order one.

That 1% when I do need it (driving in Europe, driving to previously uknown destinations in the US), I just stick a Garmin in the car.

Originally Posted by Quacker

You don't care if it's V6, straight 6, turbo, four cylinder etc, so long as it's fast then that is all that matters. The GTR is fast, so shouldn't it fit your criteria?

The fast part of the equation definitely fits the bill - which is why I never say fit to criticise its powerplant.

The GT-R mainly didn't factor into my buying decision because of it's price. My budget was $50k before taxes and the M3 squeaked in by the tightest margins.


But even if price wouldn't have been a barrier, at $80k there are several other cars that I truly desire (even certified/used) - just not the GT-R. I was using the gimmicky graphics just as an example as to why it doesn't appeal to me.

But the whole way it goes about achieving its goals (and its very goals come to think about it), are not what I want in a max performance toy/car. When Porsche created the GT3, they just wanted to make the best driving car they knew how. Nissan just wanted to demolish any other records held by the 911TT (or some other target car). That is why I don't want one...

Hang on a minute - doesn't the M3 have that very playstation like idrive knob? Jeeeez, what do you know, an M3 owner with idrive bagging a GTR for being "gimmicky and playstation like" That's like Parris Hilton calling Sienna Miller a slut....

My M3 doesn't have it. It's optional, not forced upon you.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

My guess is that ADC was originally putting down the playstation designed screen on the GTR???(...)

Just using it as an example as to why the GT-R philosophy doesn't appeal to me. That was before other people's sarcasm took any meaning out of the discussion...

Now stop fighting or I'll be over to clip your ears.

There is no fight really. There is no turf to defend, I'm not even justifying my own purchase decision (considering the substantial price difference). Just voicing my opinion, that's all.

I guess some people take it really personally, jeez. Like they designed it or something...

[Quacker]

Originally Posted by adc

Doesn't have to be that way - it could do what the 335i does so well: cut power and let you know funny business is going on.



Actually warn you of a problem when there is one is ricey??? That's the very definition of functionality and the exact opposite of a ricey feature. You either don't seem to have a clear understanding of this, or just trying to be sarcastic.



No - a row of shift lights like some cars do would suffice. Matter of fact, many race cars have this feature.

But in a road car, the tach also substitutes for other things: econo-meter, visual indication of engine speed (and functioning) when you cannot hear it etc.



Since speed is extremely important to my well being and the well being of other traffic participants, I definitely want it displayed at all times. Just doesn't need to be a big fixed round dial. A heads-up display would be really nice.



Assuming that by street map you mean a paper map - using one while driving is way more distracting than a satnav. But you are partially correct, 99% of the time I don't need one, which is why I didn't order one.

That 1% when I do need it (driving in Europe, driving to previously uknown destinations in the US), I just stick a Garmin in the car.



The fast part of the equation definitely fits the bill - which is why I never say fit to criticise its powerplant.

The GT-R mainly didn't factor into my buying decision because of it's price. My budget was $50k before taxes and the M3 squeaked in by the tightest margins.


But even if price wouldn't have been a barrier, at $80k there are several other cars that I truly desire (even certified/used) - just not the GT-R. I was using the gimmicky graphics just as an example as to why it doesn't appeal to me.

But the whole way it goes about achieving its goals (and its very goals come to think about it), are not what I want in a max performance toy/car. When Porsche created the GT3, they just wanted to make the best driving car they knew how. Nissan just wanted to demolish any other records held by the 911TT (or some other target car). That is why I don't want one...



My M3 doesn't have it. It's optional, not forced upon you.



Just using it as an example as to why the GT-R philosophy doesn't appeal to me. That was before other people's sarcasm took any meaning out of the discussion...



There is no fight really. There is no turf to defend, I'm not even justifying my own purchase decision (considering the substantial price difference). Just voicing my opinion, that's all.

I guess some people take it really personally, jeez. Like they designed it or something...

Fair enough. I was just curious as to why a minor thing such as the dash display, which can be turned off and has no weight burden on the GTR can become such a deal breaker for someone like you. Guess you are someone who is very particular with their cars.

One final question, have you driven a GTR?

[adc]

Originally Posted by Quacker

One final question, have you driven a GTR?

No - I never drive a car that is completely out of my price range, so as to not suffer too much should I fall for it.

Perhaps in a couple of years when there will be a good second hand selection I'll drive it - but since it doesn't meet my #1 requirement for the fun car (stick shift), I seriously doubt it will make any difference.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by adc

No - I never drive a car that is completely out of my price range, so as to not suffer too much should I fall for it.

Perhaps in a couple of years when there will be a good second hand selection I'll drive it - but since it doesn't meet my #1 requirement for the fun car (stick shift), I seriously doubt it will make any difference.

Did Nissan crank the price up??? When I arrived in Canada there was just under 20k difference in the GTR and M3. Of course no one could get me a GTR so it didn't matter anyway.

At the time it was cheaper than the Z06 and WAY cheaper than the ZR1

[adc]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Did Nissan crank the price up??? When I arrived in Canada there was just under 20k difference in the GTR and M3. Of course no one could get me a GTR so it didn't matter anyway.

At the time it was cheaper than the Z06 and WAY cheaper than the ZR1

Yes, Nissan increased the price some $10k in less than 2 years. I'm not even counting the frightening maintenance costs.

By contrast my M3, with few options and the Euro Delivery discount, came in at under $50k before taxes.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by adc

Yes, Nissan increased the price some $10k in less than 2 years. I'm not even counting the frightening maintenance costs.

By contrast my M3, with few options and the Euro Delivery discount, came in at under $50k before taxes.

Didn't getting it back from Europe cancel out the saving on the purchase price? I presume it's more for the chance to drive it on autobahn etc that people do it and not to save on list price?

[adc]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Didn't getting it back from Europe cancel out the saving on the purchase price? I presume it's more for the chance to drive it on autobahn etc that people do it and not to save on list price?

Well you pay the same destination charge as for a regular US-delivery car ($895 I think). But you are correct, most people jump at the chance to drive their bimmers on the Autobahn and around Europe.

BMW just gives you the 7% discount and it's up to you how you take advantage of it: fly there and back immediately to save a few grand, stay there for about a week essentially at BMW's expense, or go for a bigger trip and sample everything you can (and let BMW defray some of the costs).

I went for the latter, but there is no wrong way to take advantage of their discount.


Edit: I should bring this in the discussion as it's very relevant: while on the Nurburgring, doing my best to remember the track layout and not do anyhting stupid, I was still advancing at a good clip. I had 2 GT-R's blow by me like I was standing still, and later a 911TT did the same thing. I realize I was at a complete disadvantage being a novice there, but still they were all so much faster...

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by adc

Well you pay the same destination charge as for a regular US-delivery car ($895 I think). But you are correct, most people jump at the chance to drive their bimmers on the Autobahn and around Europe.

BMW just gives you the 7% discount and it's up to you how you take advantage of it: fly there and back immediately to save a few grand, stay there for about a week essentially at BMW's expense, or go for a bigger trip and sample everything you can (and let BMW defray some of the costs).

I went for the latter, but there is no wrong way to take advantage of their discount.


Edit: I should bring this in the discussion as it's very relevant: while on the Nurburgring, doing my best to remember the track layout and not do anyhting stupid, I was still advancing at a good clip. I had 2 GT-R's blow by me like I was standing still, and later a 911TT did the same thing. I realize I was at a complete disadvantage being a novice there, but still they were all so much faster...

Sounds like a good option whatever way you use it.

Ah yes the Nurb. I think you'll need a few months non stop to get to know that place.

[Cyclenirvana]

My biggest problem with the GT-R is not the car but the dealers! When I was searching for a daily driver, the local BMW dealership rolled out the carpet...I test drove at least 2 M3's several times. When I bought my Ford GT, I test drove a Ferrari 360, Ferrari 430, and Lambo Gallardo....but I cannot find a local Nissan dealership that would have let me test drive the car! It is unbelievable...for heavens sake, it is a Nissan with a sticker below $100K. And I don't buy anything without test driving it. Just yesterday, I test drove the 2010 Porsche GT-3...what a car!! Sticker was around $137K.
I just don't understand it. But I do know that I will never consider owning one without a test drive.

I have noticed that car marques that normally don't deal in exotic sports cars can be very difficult to deal with if they have that one exotic car in their lineup....same thing happened to me when I was considering a CTS-V and recently I considered trading the Ford GT for a R8 V10...but no test drive...and when I saw it in person (good looking car), I decided it was not worth it, at least for me.

[bobbyd1961]

i need to seat 5 thats why the M3 sedan wins. plus it looks like its about 15 grand cheaper too. the GTR is as rare as an M3 sedan. ive only seen 1 ever and the only sedan i see is mine ever.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Cyclenirvana

My biggest problem with the GT-R is not the car but the dealers! When I was searching for a daily driver, the local BMW dealership rolled out the carpet...I test drove at least 2 M3's several times. When I bought my Ford GT, I test drove a Ferrari 360, Ferrari 430, and Lambo Gallardo....but I cannot find a local Nissan dealership that would have let me test drive the car! It is unbelievable...for heavens sake, it is a Nissan with a sticker below $100K. And I don't buy anything without test driving it. Just yesterday, I test drove the 2010 Porsche GT-3...what a car!! Sticker was around $137K.
I just don't understand it. But I do know that I will never consider owning one without a test drive.

I have noticed that car marques that normally don't deal in exotic sports cars can be very difficult to deal with if they have that one exotic car in their lineup....same thing happened to me when I was considering a CTS-V and recently I considered trading the Ford GT for a R8 V10...but no test drive...and when I saw it in person (good looking car), I decided it was not worth it, at least for me.

I am ambivalent about that. I understand your frustration but at the same time understand why dealers don't want every boy racer testing their GTR, Corvette, Viper, Evo, etc.
I think the more prestigous brand names don't have the same problems because generally only the more serious buyer would ask to test drive $100k plus cars.

[Cyclenirvana]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

I am ambivalent about that. I understand your frustration but at the same time understand why dealers don't want every boy racer testing their GTR, Corvette, Viper, Evo, etc.
I think the more prestigous brand names don't have the same problems because generally only the more serious buyer would ask to test drive $100k plus cars.

I just cannot imagine paying money for a car you never test drove. Would you marry someone without at least dating them? The test drive has definitely influenced my buying decisions, more than any other factor. I do understand why some dealers are strict about who they let test drive the car...but saying no to a clearly interested client... and a GT-R? you have got to be kidding me? Oh well. I guess I am just not the buyer they are looking for....

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Cyclenirvana

I just cannot imagine paying money for a car you never test drove. Would you marry someone without at least dating them? The test drive has definitely influenced my buying decisions, more than any other factor. I do understand why some dealers are strict about who they let test drive the car...but saying no to a clearly interested client... and a GT-R? you have got to be kidding me? Oh well. I guess I am just not the buyer they are looking for....

If you do the proper research and know what you want in a car a test drive would only be final check.
IMO test drives are overrated. What do you really find out about a car you can't (or shouldn't) push hard and that you're only going to drive for a very short time? Your mind should have been pretty much made up by the time you're sitting in it.

Out of all the cars I've owned (or am buying) over the past six years (E46M3, CLS55, M6, Cayenne S, CLK63 Black, Cayenne GTS, X5-wifes, Q7-wifes, X3-wifes, GTR, GT3, X6M) I have only test driven the M3 and the SUVs. I do test drive cars but rarely the ones I order.


slight tangent-
Here's the SUV I ordered yesterday that I have never seen, let alone driven.

[adc]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

If you do the proper research and know what you want in a car a test drive would only be final check.
IMO test drives are overrated. What do you really find out about a car you can't (or shouldn't) push hard and that you're only going to drive for a very short time?

You can find out lots of things. For example:
- If your head will bang the roof frame every time you enter the car (Eclipse, G35).
- If you can live with the suspension harshness and general level of NVH (Evo).
- If you like the DCT as much as others who wrote about it (M3).

And finally, you can definitely get a final feel for the car before signing on the dotted line. I agree that you can certainly get good information from some of the professional reviews out there, but for me how the car feels is way more important than all the reviews put together.

Let's put it this way: the reviews can steer me in a direction (narrow down the selection), but I can only make the final purchase decision after consulting my hands, brain and butt.


If I may poke a little fun at you - perhaps if you had test-driven some of those nice cars you've owned in the past 6 years, you wouldn't have had to go through so many.

[Cyclenirvana]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

If you do the proper research and know what you want in a car a test drive would only be final check.
IMO test drives are overrated. What do you really find out about a car you can't (or shouldn't) push hard and that you're only going to drive for a very short time? Your mind should have been pretty much made up by the time you're sitting in it.

Out of all the cars I've owned (or am buying) over the past six years (E46M3, CLS55, M6, Cayenne S, CLK63 Black, Cayenne GTS, X5-wifes, Q7-wifes, X3-wifes, GTR, GT3, X6M) I have only test driven the M3 and the SUVs. I do test drive cars but rarely the ones I order.


slight tangent-
Here's the SUV I ordered yesterday that I have never seen, let alone driven.

Wow. Unbelievable!! It is as if you are bragging about not test driving! Boy, could not disagree more. No amount of research prepares you for how a clutch or shifter feels, seats when driving not sitting on show room floor, suspension over rough roads vs. freeway, etc. One of my physician partners test drove the Aston Martin Vantage with 6 spd manual...she complained that by the time she had the mirrors and seat adjusted, shifting into 2nd and 4th had her elbow hitting the console. What sold me on my Ford GT was the test drive...the stick and clutch was so light for so much power....not as heavy as that in the 360 or even Dodge Viper. I had a difficult time driving the Infiniti G37 smoothly as the clutch engagement (at least to me) seemed to me too rapid.
So for me, I really really see a tremendous difference, even with a short test drive...and this after exhaustive research. I can read Motor Trend, C&D, etc, all day long and actually love it...but it doesn't replace the feel of driving a car. Some cars I have liked better after test driving: 335i, M3, Mitsubishi Evo, Ford GT, Ferrari 430, while others I have liked less: 650i, Ferrari 360 w/6 spd manual, Base Cayenne, Dodge Viper...rarely has the experience been neutral.
Wow! We can agree to disagree. Best of luck!!

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by adc

You can find out lots of things. For example:
- If your head will bang the roof frame every time you enter the car (Eclipse, G35).
- If you can live with the suspension harshness and general level of NVH (Evo).
- If you like the DCT as much as others who wrote about it (M3).

And finally, you can definitely get a final feel for the car before signing on the dotted line. I agree that you can certainly get good information from some of the professional reviews out there, but for me how the car feels is way more important than all the reviews put together.

Let's put it this way: the reviews can steer me in a direction (narrow down the selection), but I can only make the final purchase decision after consulting my hands, brain and butt.


If I may poke a little fun at you - perhaps if you had test-driven some of those nice cars you've owned in the past 6 years, you wouldn't have had to go through so many.

Poke fun at me all you want.
I still would have gone through as many cars as I have.
And given the number of cars I have bought I can tell you without reservation that a test drive would have made zero difference to me.
You don't get to know a car on an intial drive, especially one you can't really open up on. Some cars I initially liked I grew to dislike (eg my M6) some cars I initially wasn't impressed with ended up being my favorites (eg my Cayenne S and my GTR). And some cars simply weren't available for a test drive (my M6, my CLS55, and my CLK63 Black Series).
The only thing a test drive is going to do is highlight a glaring negative.
Frankly if you haven't researched it enough to know you shouldn't even consider buying it.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Cyclenirvana

Wow. Unbelievable!! It is as if you are bragging about not test driving! Boy, could not disagree more. No amount of research prepares you for how a clutch or shifter feels, seats when driving not sitting on show room floor, suspension over rough roads vs. freeway, etc. One of my physician partners test drove the Aston Martin Vantage with 6 spd manual...she complained that by the time she had the mirrors and seat adjusted, shifting into 2nd and 4th had her elbow hitting the console. What sold me on my Ford GT was the test drive...the stick and clutch was so light for so much power....not as heavy as that in the 360 or even Dodge Viper. I had a difficult time driving the Infiniti G37 smoothly as the clutch engagement (at least to me) seemed to me too rapid.
So for me, I really really see a tremendous difference, even with a short test drive...and this after exhaustive research. I can read Motor Trend, C&D, etc, all day long and actually love it...but it doesn't replace the feel of driving a car. Some cars I have liked better after test driving: 335i, M3, Mitsubishi Evo, Ford GT, Ferrari 430, while others I have liked less: 650i, Ferrari 360 w/6 spd manual, Base Cayenne, Dodge Viper...rarely has the experience been neutral.
Wow! We can agree to disagree. Best of luck!!

No. What I'm trying to communicate is that test drives are overrated.
I'm not saying they're worthless but if you think you know a car from that experience I think you're being naive.
You stated something like "would you marry someone without dating them first?"
I would counter "so you'd marry them after a handshake?"

[Cyclenirvana]

I think one big difference between us is that I am not really a "marque" guy. I don't buy just Mercedes or BMW or Chevrolet or Honda, etc...nor am I just someone who buys just German, Japanese, or American. Also, it makes a BIG difference whether you are talking about a manual or automatic. Test driving a manual is a must! How many of your cars have been a manual? They are all different. So, for me a magazine review of a car is just a start. Don't ever forget, the editors and test drivers for all of the mags are just as biased as all the rest of us!! And test drives have meant the difference between me buying a car or not. So, like you, I have owned a few cars in the last few years--2001 BMW X5, 2003 Honda S2000 (best positive shifter!), Lexus 330 (for the wife), 2006 350Z (again for the wife, and she test drove a lot of cars but really loved this one), 2005 C6 Z51 vette (traded for my 2006 Ford GT), 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo, and now my 2009 M3 sedan. In all cases (again after significant research) and multiple test drives of several different cars, I bought or traded for the above cars. But again, I have no bias against or for German, American, or Japanese cars...I just buy what I think is the best car for me (and my wife). And with the exception of the Corvette (of no fault to the corvette), I tend to keep my cars for at least 4 years. I have had no surprises, and most I have enjoyed even more as I drove them more.
Plus, it is a helluva lot of fun to drive all sorts of cars!! Who could not appreciate the Mini???
Listen, we will never understand each other. A handshake is not the same as a test drive...I would equate a handshake to sitting in the car. When Flow BMW let me test drive a M3, I took it on the expressway and used the cruise control, took it on some curvy, and rough roads, parallel parked it...and hit 100 mph in it! This is what I mean by test drive. Carolinas Lamborghini allowed me to take their Gallardo to 100 mph. They even took the cars to VIR, and participants were allowed to take the cars for a spin. The Ford dealer took me out in the GT and scared the hell out of me! No, not every dealer allows drivers to be this spirited, but I am not talking about putzing around at red lights either....So, no handshake here...no this is more like sex!! And I am marrying her!! Hand me a cigarette!
But at least you are keeping the economy strong! keep it up!

And don't make fun of my green frog on the dashboard of the M3..it's the wife's reminder to behave!

[SoreHead]

[QUOTE=Cyclenirvana;5707986] So, for me a magazine review of a car is just a start.
[QUOTE]

+1000
Multiple magazine reviews are a great start and while they can be biased, with something like the E9x when EVERY SINGLE review is raving you can fairly well tell you won't be disappointed. It's a good start. Then they disagree hugely you have to wonder even before the test drive.
Then there are things like an LP640 you just know it won't matter what anyone says.

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by Cyclenirvana

I think one big difference between us is that I am not really a "marque" guy. I don't buy just Mercedes or BMW or Chevrolet or Honda, etc...nor am I just someone who buys just German, Japanese, or American. Also, it makes a BIG difference whether you are talking about a manual or automatic. Test driving a manual is a must! How many of your cars have been a manual? They are all different. So, for me a magazine review of a car is just a start. Don't ever forget, the editors and test drivers for all of the mags are just as biased as all the rest of us!! And test drives have meant the difference between me buying a car or not. So, like you, I have owned a few cars in the last few years--2001 BMW X5, 2003 Honda S2000 (best positive shifter!), Lexus 330 (for the wife), 2006 350Z (again for the wife, and she test drove a lot of cars but really loved this one), 2005 C6 Z51 vette (traded for my 2006 Ford GT), 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo, and now my 2009 M3 sedan. In all cases (again after significant research) and multiple test drives of several different cars, I bought or traded for the above cars. But again, I have no bias against or for German, American, or Japanese cars...I just buy what I think is the best car for me (and my wife). And with the exception of the Corvette (of no fault to the corvette), I tend to keep my cars for at least 4 years. I have had no surprises, and most I have enjoyed even more as I drove them more.
Plus, it is a helluva lot of fun to drive all sorts of cars!! Who could not appreciate the Mini???
Listen, we will never understand each other. A handshake is not the same as a test drive...I would equate a handshake to sitting in the car. When Flow BMW let me test drive a M3, I took it on the expressway and used the cruise control, took it on some curvy, and rough roads, parallel parked it...and hit 100 mph in it! This is what I mean by test drive. Carolinas Lamborghini allowed me to take their Gallardo to 100 mph. They even took the cars to VIR, and participants were allowed to take the cars for a spin. The Ford dealer took me out in the GT and scared the hell out of me! No, not every dealer allows drivers to be this spirited, but I am not talking about putzing around at red lights either....So, no handshake here...no this is more like sex!! And I am marrying her!! Hand me a cigarette!
But at least you are keeping the economy strong! keep it up!

And don't make fun of my green frog on the dashboard of the M3..it's the wife's reminder to behave!

I do get your point and take all of this as a friendly back and forth but I'm a little confused as to where you got the idea I buy cars just because of a label?
Again, I didn't say test drives were worthless we just differ as to their importance. I think you get very little out of them. For me they're definitely not like sex, dating, or romance. They are more of a handshake and saying "hello".

[Mikewarlover]

Personally i think test drives are very very important. Its very different when you feel the throttle input, steering feedback, seating position, shifter feels(if its a manual) or shift speed if its an auto. There are very important things you can't find out such as how the car truly handles when you push it. However again i wanna say test drive is important.

Personally experience is that while every magazine rages on about how good the new M3 is I had my hopes very high. However after taking an half a hour test drive in a 6mt one i couldn't see myself buying one. It is for sure a very good car, precise, civilized and very soft but it has no torque at all and unless you are on a track the high revs are not very useful. On the other hand I drove a C63 and fell in love instantly, it feels much more solid,powerful,sound better and is just as comfortable with a warmer and more user friendly interior. In the end i bought the C63 instead of the m3 even though i am a big fan of M cars.

Also during my purchase i also considered GTR and I always thought it is an great car when it came out. I thought its well build, comfortable, very fast and will be ok as a daily. However after i drove my friend's new GTR a few times I found it a bit too firm for daily, not as fast as i expected, and isn't exactly that well build compared to bmws and mercs. It is still very good just not what i expected.

So all my baffles comes to one thing, plz drive it before you sign the papers and empty your wallet.