Major VANOS issues

[VovoMpower]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

It appears the VANOS isn't able to hold its positions. In the oil filter housing, is the cage present within the filter core? The cage should remain attached to the housing cap when removed.

There are X-Rings on each camshaft. There is also an O-ring on each VANOS adjuster where it slides over the cam. Were those inspected and/or replaced?

Thank you for your help this far deansbimmer. By “cage” I take it you’re talking about the core which the inner oil filter wears around, where the oil filter cap plastic pin goes?

As for the X-Rings on each camshaft, these look ok. I even replaced the camshafts with old ones from another motor I have
Orings look good on the adjuster units. I also replaced all four adjuster units

Kind Regards

[VovoMpower]

... and since all 4 Vanos are not holding position, whatever the cause, is something common to all four

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by VovoMpower

By “cage” I take it you’re talking about the core which the inner oil filter wears around, where the oil filter cap plastic pin goes?

As for the X-Rings on each camshaft, these look ok. I even replaced the camshafts with old ones from another motor I have
Orings look good on the adjuster units. I also replaced all four adjuster units

The cage (or core) is the plastic nub attached to the filter housing cap that inserts through the core of the filter. It has the tiny O-Ring on the end that you replace every filter change. If that core is damaged or missing you'll get these VANOS codes.

When you replaced these parts, were they new oem parts or used? If used, where did they come from? The O-rings on the adjusters need to be replaced when they're removed. The edges square off over time and look OK to the naked eye but can cause a leakdown situation, which is what I suspect you're dealing with here.

Something is impeding pressure hold. Either hydraulically or electrically. It may still be electrical but you'd need an oscilloscope to monitor the solenoid signals. There could be an internal leak. There are a number of small O-rings on tensioner rails and solenoids upstream of the adjusters that could be leaking. As you already realize, the issue stands with all four adjusters so you need to go upstream to investigate the potential hydraulic issues.

[VovoMpower]

The parts are used OEM, from an S65 crankshaftless motor

As for the Orings in the adjuster units, I have not replaced the orings. I had initially intended to do so, but BMW parts advise me that they don’t sell the orings separately, I would have to buy them with the units??? Where can I purchase the rings separately?

You’ve articulated the probable causes really well. I will start with the easier investigation of electronic issues using an oscilloscope. Thereafter, investigate hydraulic issues upstream. I will probably do this work this weekend. Will drop you a reply on how it goes

You’re the man! Thank you

[deansbimmer]

BMW parts did you a disservice. The O-rings are available, they're PN 11367839292. I replace them whenever I remove an adjuster from its camshaft. They may not be your problem but just some FYI. See #4 on realoem http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_4122


Was the "crankshaftless" engine due to bearing failure? VANOS from engines that suffered from bearing failure tend to have a high failure rate depending on the severity of the bearing failure. Some adjusters just don't work afterwards. Their rotors gall and won't maintain pressure. Or, debris lodges between them and physically impedes their full internal movement.

[VovoMpower]

So typical of BMW parts! I will try a different dealer. You’re right, although it might not be the issue, it would b beneficial for the long run to replace the Orings

The crankshaftless motor was meant for some stage four competition work that never happened. Ended up using the crank on my brothers M that had serve bearing wear

You mentioned timing chain rail rings earlier. You recon these can also cause Vanos specific hydraulic leak issues?

[M.Hagen]

I do not have any specific experience with the issues you are dealing with on the S65, but due to the 'global' VANOS issues you have it reminds me of a problem I had to diagnose on another platform. On a 2JZ w/VVT (Toyota's VANOS), I was not getting actual cam angles to match the commanded cam angles. The electronics, VVT Mechanicals, and nominal oil pressure gauge all showed within spec. I found the issue by tapping into the oil feed at the VVT Solenoid location and measuring oil pressure (was way less than the nominal sensor located in the crankcase). The oil passage between crankcase and cylinder head had some silicone sealant lodged, restricting oil flow.

Since your issue seem to be affecting all four VANOS units, there is a global-system issue with either the electronics or oil pressure. It is unlikely that all four VANOS units failed at the same time.

[VovoMpower]

Originally Posted by M.Hagen

I do not have any specific experience with the issues you are dealing with on the S65, but due to the 'global' VANOS issues you have it reminds me of a problem I had to diagnose on another platform. On a 2JZ w/VVT (Toyota's VANOS), I was not getting actual cam angles to match the commanded cam angles. The electronics, VVT Mechanicals, and nominal oil pressure gauge all showed within spec. I found the issue by tapping into the oil feed at the VVT Solenoid location and measuring oil pressure (was way less than the nominal sensor located in the crankcase). The oil passage between crankcase and cylinder head had some silicone sealant lodged, restricting oil flow.

Since your issue seem to be affecting all four VANOS units, there is a global-system issue with either the electronics or oil pressure. It is unlikely that all four VANOS units failed at the same time.

You are correct Hagen. Based on the analysis we’ve done with deansbimmer so far, it does look like the issue is global. Should I not find any electronical issues this weekend by measuring the activity on the solenoids using an oscilloscope, I will have to dig deeper in investigating hydraulic issues either caused by leaking orings or blockage. I am also trying to establish if tensioner rail oring leakage can or cannot cause such issues?

Thank you

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by VovoMpower

....I am also trying to establish if tensioner rail oring leakage can or cannot cause such issues?

Yes, they can in theory. Each head has one oil gallery to supply the VANOS system, at the front of the head/block. They're fed directly from the main oil gallery at the base of the engine Vee, as are the tensioner guide pins. Any leakage in the system will reduce pressure holding ability.

[bvrider1]

I would post a new thread outside of this one. It would not muddy up the diagnosis of the OP issue.

Originally Posted by Lustik´s

Hello how are you? My name is Lustik's. I'm from Spain and I'm new here. and I do not know if I write well here, I have an M3 e92 has 100,000 klm and I have a problem with the acceleration of the car. It turns out that in any gear at low revs, step on the accelerator completely and does not accelerate well, seems to snort through block 2 until it reaches
3000/4000 rpm Then it starts to give energy but not completely. in the diagnostic machine and ... no fault appears ... I have a delphi where I can see the degrees of each VANO. Here comes the dilemma of seeing the degrees that the computer tells me:
Reference position of the VANOS input row: 130.3ºKW
Actual position of row 1 of VANOS admission: 130.6ºKW

REF row 1 VANOS exhaust: 129.0ºKW
REAL row 1 exhaust VANOS: 128.7ºKW

REF row 2 admission VANOS: 129.6KW
REAL entry row 2 VANOS: 130.4ºKW

REF row 2 exhaust VANOS: 127.7ºKW
ROYAL row 2 exhaust VANOS: 125.5ºKW

THIS MEASURED IT WITH THE ENGINE STOPPED (is it well done?)

Here in Spain there is no information about the engine Vanos of the s65, a friend who has an M5 told me to make a valve timing adjustment and after all the work for my misfortune continues to do so. We put again in the computer, we look at the position data of VANOS
Entry row 1
Ref 130ºkw Real 130.6ºkw

Row 1 escape
Ref129.0ºkw Real 128.7kw

Entrance to row 2
ref 129.6ºkw Real 130.4

row 2 escape
Ref 127.7ºkw Real 125.5ºkw

this information is fine, please, someone who can help me

[Lustik´s]

How is it done?

[M3 Ryan]

Originally Posted by VovoMpower

You are correct Hagen. Based on the analysis we’ve done with deansbimmer so far, it does look like the issue is global. Should I not find any electronical issues this weekend by measuring the activity on the solenoids using an oscilloscope, I will have to dig deeper in investigating hydraulic issues either caused by leaking orings or blockage. I am also trying to establish if tensioner rail oring leakage can or cannot cause such issues?

Thank you

Vovo is there any way i could contact you. i have just sent my M3 to my father who lives in Cape Town and has got the 271D vanoss exhaust control bank 2 error code. same symptoms with the speradic idle. id like to discuss with you how your issue was solved and which garage you solved. please let me know your contact number or any means of which i can contact you.

thanks a lot boet.
Ryan

[VovoMpower]

Hi Ryan

I know this is years later, but just to post a resolution here for someone who might need it:

Turned out my flywheel was out of alignment on the crankshaft. The flywheel is normally aligned by a dowel, but for some odd reason, it was sheared off.

Went and bought the $2 dowel, and issues were resolved.

I found this after reading up a bit on where the dme read the crank shaft position, and it turned out to be on the flywheel, this was obviously throwing everything off, and regarding Vanos positions.

Hope that helps!

[Wally1552]

Originally Posted by VovoMpower

Hi Ryan

I know this is years later, but just to post a resolution here for someone who might need it:

Turned out my flywheel was out of alignment on the crankshaft. The flywheel is normally aligned by a dowel, but for some odd reason, it was sheared off.

Went and bought the $2 dowel, and issues were resolved.

I found this after reading up a bit on where the dme read the crank shaft position, and it turned out to be on the flywheel, this was obviously throwing everything off, and regarding Vanos positions.

Hope that helps!

I learned so much just reading this thread especially deansbeamers posts

[Redd]

Originally Posted by VovoMpower

Hi Ryan

I know this is years later, but just to post a resolution here for someone who might need it:

Turned out my flywheel was out of alignment on the crankshaft. The flywheel is normally aligned by a dowel, but for some odd reason, it was sheared off.

Went and bought the $2 dowel, and issues were resolved.

I found this after reading up a bit on where the dme read the crank shaft position, and it turned out to be on the flywheel, this was obviously throwing everything off, and regarding Vanos positions.

Hope that helps!

Thanks so much for taking the time to let us know the final fix. Glad you got everything sorted in the end.