What is more fun and raw than e90/92 for similar cost?

[kyrix1st]

I would say Euro 3.2 E36 M3 (96-99) with 321hp S50B32 engine and 6 speed manual. It has the best steering feel bar the E30 M3, about 100kg lighter than E46 M3 and has a very neutral balance.

My late E36 3.2 was my far the best M3 I have driven in terms of balance of performance and feel. The design is also very timeless and thug. Nothing better than revving a double VANOS straight 6 to 7600 rpm...

[lagunablue1]

As a (laguna blue) S2000 owner I can echo the praise for it. I have a supercharged AP2 and it is so much more direct compared to an E9X M3.

Stock they are slow, but a SoS or Vortech supercharger is a very easy bolt-on mod that doesn't mess with reliability of the car. Mine is kraftwerks supercharged making over 400whp and it's a blast. I don't get to drive it as often as I'd like but it has a real sense of occasion when I do.

[spazzyfry123]

Not sure how I missed the conversation going here. Damn notifications...

Originally Posted by JPWEraser

Having owned both, at my current age, I would buy a Z4M over the S2000. I loved both cars but I owned them at different stages of my life and I think I did it right. I had the S2000 in my 20s. It's that kind of car, especially modified. The Z4M, while it's no "mature" car, it's a little more sophisticated and an upgrade in just about every way (except for the trans) stock for stock.

If I had to do it all over again there is no question I would supercharge my Z4M, have a subtle drop in the ride height, and a mild exhaust.

I had a roadster which can be had at a lower price. There are a lot of coupe snobs around but let's get real, most of us will never drive the car at 10/10ths to truly see the ill effects of the roadster chassis rigidity and small amount of weight from the soft top mechanism. I think the coupe looks great but it pales in comparison to a roadster with the top down not to mention the driving experience which the coupe can not touch. Before kids, my wife and I took it to the beach several times and cruising with the top down on warm nights with the sea breeze were some of our most fond memories with the car.

I absolutely love the lines of the MC. I think it's one of the best looking cars out there, but I may a bit biased in that my dream car as far back as I can remember is a Daytona Coupe

I'm still having the internal debate on what I would want, and I keep telling myself "coupe or nothing." The more digging I do, the more I realize how irrational that is and just how much of a bargain a Z4MR truly is. The drive is that I'm just not really a convertible guy. Silly to think that the top can stay up

Originally Posted by W///

Well that's the funny part. The Z4MR and S2000 are roughly the same price wise (unless I understood your question wrong). Mine had 89k miles when I bought it, so it is higher miles, but I only paid $17k for it. I've seen even them cheaper now with a clean Carfax. Mint ones are going for low 20s, while people are asking the same for their beat up E46 M3's.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat to be honest with you. I honestly think the Z4M Roadster is the best bargain in the BMW M lineup at current prices. It's actually one of the cheapest ways to get into an S54 powered car, about 3000 units world wide, all the traits of a classic (NA, 6MT only, hydraulic power steering). I absolutely love the fact that it's a 1 trick pony. Doesn't try to be comfortable, doesn't try to be fuel efficient, doesn't try to be practical. It's literally just a toy.



Couldn't agree more. As a mater of fact, I have the exact same combo. I've never had a chance to take the Roadster to the beach yet, but driving it on the Blue Ridge Parkway in the Fall when all the leaves were turning is still one of my favorite automotive experience. Funnily enough, I picked up the car from Ohio.

If it's within the same price as a Coupe, I think I'd still pick the Roadster. No different than the fact I'd rather have a 718 Spyder than the GT4 now.

Too funny. I recently made a thread in the general automotive section to raise discussion around what would people buy for ≤$25k. I listed my requirements, with the first one being "dedicated to its purpose." I was chuckling to myself reading your post about the Z4MR being a one trick pony because that is exactly what I would want in a sports car.

We moved from north Georgia with quick access to some of the best roads, and it was a dream when I had my E90M. Bored? Drive about 45 minutes to the mountains. If I'm not mistaken, you were on the first Dragon run we did a few years back. We currently live in north Florida, but this is a pit stop while we wait for the next move to, hopefully, east Tennessee (think Johnson City area) or western South Carolina (probably near Lake Hartwell). While having a sports car here has no real purpose with its lack of elevation change and minimal turns, we know that we'll want one in the near future. Perhaps an open air experience would be enjoyed in that environment.

Originally Posted by JRF

I recently sold my e92 (which I loved very dearly) to make room for a car on my bucket list. my NSX is the best car I have ever driven and i've had owned or driven lots of them. it isn't blindingly fast but it's very easy to drive the car at the limit with confidence. very analog. it checks all the boxes for me.

Now THAT would be fun. Congrats. Wife would kill me if I brought one of those home...

[JPWEraser]

There are a ton of great roads in the east TN area. I lived there for 15 years (Greeneville and Johnson City) and miss the roads dearly!

[Golddots]

Anyone here have any experience with an older air cooled 911(non turbo)? I know they are relatively slow. I've always liked 911s and the ability to hold their value is quite appealing.

Thanks

[joshmkb24]

Originally Posted by Kwike92M3

C6 Z06 Corvette, or a high mileage C6 Zr1 (might be a stretch).
Dollar for dollar, the performance oriented C6 corvettes are tough to beat. Their only downside (other than the stigma of the type of person that drives a vette) is the cheap interior. Otherwise, great cars. Relatively inexpensive to upgrade, and can be easy to find.

As someone who currently owns both the C6z and the e92 I have to say the M3 interior isn't that much better than the C6z. Now I will say for day to day the M3 is so much more fun and practical. The Z has such wide tires on the front and back it loves to grab all the cracks in the road at low speeds so you have to constantly pay attention. The gearing is really tall so there is limited amounts of shifting you actually do. I honestly can drive around town in 3rd gear and not stall it. The M can't really compare on the open road when you really want to send it, but thats like 10% of the time you're behind the wheel? The other 90% the M is world's better IMO and a lot more user friendly.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Golddots

Anyone here have any experience with an older air cooled 911(non turbo)? I know they are relatively slow. I've always liked 911s and the ability to hold their value is quite appealing.

Thanks

If you want to feel the rawness, 993 standard with a factory LSD should serve you well. Mind that these cars tend to understeer at the limit given its rear heavy balance so you will find it more unnerving in the corners. Even E36 M3s (Euro) are much faster than them due to this fact.

Since most modern tires are oversized, they will rub on the inner fenders when cornering hard. I love it for what it is, but I would not replace my Ms for it.

[pbonsalb]

Can you buy a 993 for $25k? Some of them are antiques now - over 25 years old and the model is popular as the last of the air cooled.

[Richbot]

I keep test-driving stuff and keep coming up with the same answer to the original question: Nothing.

But then I don't find tire slap wind noise and rattles fun.

[akkando]

What about a WRX for a more raw car? Not sure which generation as I'm not familiar with that platform.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by akkando

What about a WRX for a more raw car? Not sure which generation as I'm not familiar with that platform.

I had an '11 STi sedan - it was the first year of the sedan with bIg wAnG revival; it had revised suspension.

It is in no way comparable to an M3. It is unrefined (raw isn't the word ~ it's a rattle box with no sound insulation and a cracker box sound system), it is slow in stock form (14 + 1/4 in stock form w/o a perfect 6,000 rpm clutch drop), it drinks as much fuel as the M3. The AWD is really good, but the EVO's yaw control was ahead of the STi's DccD.

Fun fact, our stage 2 tune probably picks up just as much power as an EJ25 stage 2 catless tune too.

I sold it after blowing the engine, clutch and shot the brakes by 30,000 miles.

It's a winter car.

[tigermack]

Originally Posted by akkando

What about a WRX for a more raw car? Not sure which generation as I'm not familiar with that platform.

Garbage. My bro had a 15', I had a 06', don't understand the hype on them...

[14_deltaM3]

After spending time on this question, the only somewhat similar car that is likely to be as fun and perhaps better is the Giulia QF.

I used to think a 911 was the way to go, but there’s actually only a few select models I’d want to swap my M3 for.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

After spending time on this question, the only somewhat similar car that is likely to be as fun and perhaps better is the Giulia QF.

I used to think a 911 was the way to go, but there’s actually only a few select models I’d want to swap my M3 for.

That's a great one - definitely feels more special than the F8X, but I'd be weary of the lack of aftermarket options due to limited cars on the road.

I'd summarize this question with the following algo flows:
You want more power, retain the NA, high revving feel, and don't mind the brand?

Ford GT350

You can do with less power, retain the NA, sacrifice a few revs, but gain in handling and rawness?

Porsche Cayman 987.2S or 981S - pitch in more for GT4.

You want similar power, less revs, retain NA, and a higher perceived brand?

Porsche 997.2 or 991.1

Anything else goes into Turbo world, and I feel like that's our solid no here.

Honorary mentions to C63, RS4/5 and the other American muscle cars.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

That's a great one - definitely feels more special than the F8X, but I'd be weary of the lack of aftermarket options due to limited cars on the road.

I'd summarize this question with the following algo flows:
You want more power, retain the NA, high revving feel, and don't mind the brand?

Ford GT350

You can do with less power, retain the NA, sacrifice a few revs, but gain in handling and rawness?

Porsche Cayman 987.2S or 981S - pitch in more for GT4.

You want similar power, less revs, retain NA, and a higher perceived brand?

Porsche 997.2 or 991.1

Anything else goes into Turbo world, and I feel like that's our solid no here.

Honorary mentions to C63, RS4/5 and the other American muscle cars.

I'm not a ford guy but having driven a GT350, this is a very good alternative. The car is very raw and thrilling to drive! However given the price delta it might not be considered similar cost.

[Not Sure]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

After spending time on this question, the only somewhat similar car that is likely to be as fun and perhaps better is the Giulia QF.

I used to think a 911 was the way to go, but there’s actually only a few select models I’d want to swap my M3 for.

i've driven the giulia QF. it's fast, sounds good and has an awesome steering rack - and i LOVED the optional carbon buckets - but imo the 8AT ruins the experience. just not very engaging at all compared to a DCT (let alone 6MT).

[Ajolives]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I had an '11 STi sedan - it was the first year of the sedan with bIg wAnG revival; it had revised suspension.

It is in no way comparable to an M3. It is unrefined (raw isn't the word ~ it's a rattle box with no sound insulation and a cracker box sound system), it is slow in stock form (14 + 1/4 in stock form w/o a perfect 6,000 rpm clutch drop), it drinks as much fuel as the M3. The AWD is really good, but the EVO's yaw control was ahead of the STi's DccD.

Fun fact, our stage 2 tune probably picks up just as much power as an EJ25 stage 2 catless tune too.

I sold it after blowing the engine, clutch and shot the brakes by 30,000 miles.

It's a winter car.

Traded my '14 hatchback in with 20k miles. It honestly felt like it had double the mileage on the chassis. Still makes a great winter car, but no need for those in FL.

[Montaver]

My view is in the sub $50k bracket there isn't a better all rounder then the e9x M3. It has the right combination of feeling and 'specialness' that no new car will give you. I know this from experience (I had an M2C, lasted 9 months with it). Shout out to the GT350 though that thing is brimful of character and a riot to drive. Something like an Exige would be awesome if your looking for 'raw' but there are obviously trade offs.

[Shrike360]

I feel like the only person to form a less than stellar opinion of the GT350. Test drove two of them, first one around town and the highway, second one on back roads.

Shifter feels great, very notchy and mechanical. Brakes are strong, if overboosted. It's a pretty practical car, but the back seat is more cramped than the sedan based cars. The noise in loud mode is intoxicating the first few times, it wasn't as exciting the second time around. The burble tune is a little overdone.

The negatives? Quiet mode it sounds pretty meh, you have to keep it in loud. The first car smoked heavily after a light pull. Like, there's a fire, kind of smoke. Second car definitely smelled like oil after getting on it. Gearing is purely track focused and neuters the street performance. Below ~80 mph, I think it would be even with a stock E92. A stock F8x feels faster. Also, the car would not accelerate in 6th gear at 65 mph. Straight up would take seconds to get to 70. Interior didn't offend me, but it reminded me of a rental Fusion. Also, why the hell is the fan speed control on the touch screen, and the temp control on dials? I mess with the fan speed often, I set the temp to 69 and don't touch it again. Steering feels decent on center, and completely numb off center. It's not the most playful car, it feels more than the weight difference suggests. It is also, MASSIVE. Driving town a tight back road, it feels like you're trying to keep an F150 between the lines.

Would be a good choice if you spend a lot of time on the track, but I don't think it's as good a driver's car as everyone suggests.

[Bartledoo]

Just mod the E9X M3 a bit to make it more "raw". Suspension, weight reduction (/insulation reduction), and fixed back seats with roll bar. Bam it's raw, cheaper than the options above, the engine is even more peachy, and it's a fast car on track with large tires.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Just mod the E9X M3 a bit to make it more "raw". Suspension, weight reduction (/insulation reduction), and fixed back seats with roll bar. Bam it's raw, cheaper than the options above, the engine is even more peachy, and it's a fast car on track with large tires.

That's exactly the route I'm taking. Changing rubber bushes for solid or ball joints presents tons of feedback. Giken LSD introduces tons of rear end feel. I love my M3.

[Ajolives]

Originally Posted by Shrike360

I feel like the only person to form a less than stellar opinion of the GT350. Test drove two of them, first one around town and the highway, second one on back roads.

Shifter feels great, very notchy and mechanical. Brakes are strong, if overboosted. It's a pretty practical car, but the back seat is more cramped than the sedan based cars. The noise in loud mode is intoxicating the first few times, it wasn't as exciting the second time around. The burble tune is a little overdone.

The negatives? Quiet mode it sounds pretty meh, you have to keep it in loud. The first car smoked heavily after a light pull. Like, there's a fire, kind of smoke. Second car definitely smelled like oil after getting on it. Gearing is purely track focused and neuters the street performance. Below ~80 mph, I think it would be even with a stock E92. A stock F8x feels faster. Also, the car would not accelerate in 6th gear at 65 mph. Straight up would take seconds to get to 70. Interior didn't offend me, but it reminded me of a rental Fusion. Also, why the hell is the fan speed control on the touch screen, and the temp control on dials? I mess with the fan speed often, I set the temp to 69 and don't touch it again. Steering feels decent on center, and completely numb off center. It's not the most playful car, it feels more than the weight difference suggests. It is also, MASSIVE. Driving town a tight back road, it feels like you're trying to keep an F150 between the lines.

Would be a good choice if you spend a lot of time on the track, but I don't think it's as good a driver's car as everyone suggests.

A coworker has a Gt350/R with less that 5k miles, and he had just recently taken it in for a new transmission. It's very much a garage queen and not abused.