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      11-11-2020, 12:51 AM   #1
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Question for Hotchkis Performance Swaybar Kit Users!!

Hey Hotchkis sway bar users...

Driving a 2012 E92 ZCP M3 with EDC and H&R Sport lowering springs.

Just ordered the Hotchkis Performance F+R sway bar kit (P/N 22839) and am wondering if it uses a different length than stock for the associated F+R end links.

Will stock end links work with these bars?

I am also looking at pulling the trigger on the Hotchkis F+R End link Kit (P/N 25834) that have lengths of:
Front - 11.5 in /-0.5 in
Rear - 6.375 in / -0.5 in
Should these work with the Hotchkis sway bars?

Eventually (spring-2021...ish) I'm looking at upgrading bushings and to go with either KW Clubsport or Ohlins MU40... though I think the latter doesn't have the clearance issues the Clubsport have.(??) I have also sourced a KW EDC Delete module for the coilovers.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience...and your recommendations!
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      11-22-2020, 09:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
Hey Hotchkis sway bar users...

Driving a 2012 E92 ZCP M3 with EDC and H&R Sport lowering springs.

Just ordered the Hotchkis Performance F+R sway bar kit (P/N 22839) and am wondering if it uses a different length than stock for the associated F+R end links.

Will stock end links work with these bars?

I am also looking at pulling the trigger on the Hotchkis F+R End link Kit (P/N 25834) that have lengths of:
Front - 11.5 in /-0.5 in
Rear - 6.375 in / -0.5 in
Should these work with the Hotchkis sway bars?

Eventually (spring-2021...ish) I'm looking at upgrading bushings and to go with either KW Clubsport or Ohlins MU40... though I think the latter doesn't have the clearance issues the Clubsport have.(??) I have also sourced a KW EDC Delete module for the coilovers.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience...and your recommendations!
They should work. I went with the bimmerworld 12-13.5" end links and they work just fine. Im sitting on Ohlins R&T with hotchkis front and rear sways.
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      11-23-2020, 12:32 PM   #3
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Factory end links should work until you get coilovers and want to corner balance. At that point you need adjustable end links. When corner balancing you may have different ride heights left to right. Therefore you need adjustable links to avoid preload on the sway bar
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      11-25-2020, 08:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
Hey Hotchkis sway bar users...

Driving a 2012 E92 ZCP M3 with EDC and H&R Sport lowering springs.

Just ordered the Hotchkis Performance F+R sway bar kit (P/N 22839) and am wondering if it uses a different length than stock for the associated F+R end links.

Will stock end links work with these bars?

I am also looking at pulling the trigger on the Hotchkis F+R End link Kit (P/N 25834) that have lengths of:
Front - 11.5 in /-0.5 in
Rear - 6.375 in / -0.5 in
Should these work with the Hotchkis sway bars?

Eventually (spring-2021...ish) I'm looking at upgrading bushings and to go with either KW Clubsport or Ohlins MU40... though I think the latter doesn't have the clearance issues the Clubsport have.(??) I have also sourced a KW EDC Delete module for the coilovers.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience...and your recommendations!
I run KW Clubsports with Eibach 110lb from springs & Hotchkis swaybars front & rear, no issues that I'm aware of. You will need custom length (shorter) end-links, however.
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      04-11-2022, 10:52 AM   #5
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For those running coilovers (B16, or similar), EDC and the Hotchkis f&r bars, what do you have the bars set at?

I bought my car as is, and only the front bar is currently installed. I believe the front bar is set to medium/middle. Rear is not installed yet. I will do it..within the next month or so.

Took the car on track this past Saturday. 275 35/18 old re71 up front and 295 35/18 A052 (very worn) in back. -2.7 camber up front and -2 rear. The car was still loose to some degree. The front was planted in just about every corner. The rear just didn't have a lot of grip...high speed sweeper, and even low speed sweepers.

From a basic understanding I thought I should have been pushing everywhere? Assuming I put the rear bar on soft, or next lever stiffer and the front probably on one level stiffer, new rt660 285 30/18 square, I should be pretty neutral right? Any feedback on how much a difference there was with and without the rear bar?

Do you think the A052s being mostly worn down could explain the balance difference/lack of rear traction? Enough to where "normal" suspension settings didn't matter anymore?

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your comments.

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      04-12-2022, 07:58 AM   #6
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Oem will work fine.

You'll have an impossible time installing the rear hotchkis end links unless you remove the axle. FYI
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      04-28-2022, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMTX View Post
For those running coilovers (B16, or similar), EDC and the Hotchkis f&r bars, what do you have the bars set at?

I bought my car as is, and only the front bar is currently installed. I believe the front bar is set to medium/middle. Rear is not installed yet. I will do it..within the next month or so.

Took the car on track this past Saturday. 275 35/18 old re71 up front and 295 35/18 A052 (very worn) in back. -2.7 camber up front and -2 rear. The car was still loose to some degree. The front was planted in just about every corner. The rear just didn't have a lot of grip...high speed sweeper, and even low speed sweepers.

From a basic understanding I thought I should have been pushing everywhere? Assuming I put the rear bar on soft, or next lever stiffer and the front probably on one level stiffer, new rt660 285 30/18 square, I should be pretty neutral right? Any feedback on how much a difference there was with and without the rear bar?

Do you think the A052s being mostly worn down could explain the balance difference/lack of rear traction? Enough to where "normal" suspension settings didn't matter anymore?

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your comments.

My best lap link...
On square 295 A052, 628f/1120r spring rates, i ran both front and rear bars on soft and the balance was great. -3.8-3.9 front camber and -2.1 rear camber.

Rear grip would go first on A052 as they are only good for one lap when pushing to the limit of the tire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patroklai View Post
Oem will work fine.

You'll have an impossible time installing the rear hotchkis end links unless you remove the axle. FYI
Will oem links let the bar clear the rear axle boots though? I had to really extend the adjustable hotchkis endlinks to keep the bar from ripping through the axle boots.
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      05-15-2022, 11:10 AM   #8
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SCMTX

I'm on 76k mile EDC and stock springs
Supercharged

Alignment:
Front, -3.0 camber, 0.40 degrees total toe OUT
Rear, -1.7 camber, .36 degrees total toe IN

Tires:
Nitto NT01s
Front, 275/35/18
Rear, 305/35/18

Hotchkis Bars:
Front setting, Soft (OEM End Links)
Rear setting, Soft (OEM End Links)


Even with both bars at the softest setting, the first time I backed out of the driveway, one wheel at a time, the additional rate at each wheel was immediately noticeable.


Keep in mind that I'm relatively inexperienced, so on track impressions are subjective and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I would judge the car as mostly neutral.
The front feels VERY secure (compared to the stock setup), never really pushes anymore, and I think it turns in nicely for a big car now.

The rear will sometimes step out on corner exits when overly aggressive on the throttle.
I haven't experienced the rear of the car trying to snap around mid corner, it just seems to grip and feels controllable when in long turns (T2 at Thunderhill East).

I have slid the car INTO a few corners when a tad too late with the brakes, but the front feels reasonably secure in those instances and the drama is usually short lived.

I was considering trying the front bar at the Medium setting, but a racer/instructor/Porche friend of mine that has ridden in the car for a couple of sessions (and experienced a slide entering T10 at Laguna), said he thought the car was surprisingly grippy and well mannered, and that I should fiddle with tire pressures before making a bar change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Will oem links let the bar clear the rear axle boots though? I had to really extend the adjustable hotchkis endlinks to keep the bar from ripping through the axle boots.
The driver's side OEM front link puts the bar REALLY close to the height sensor, at full droop, but doesn't actually touch.
The OEM rear links seem to fit fine, no contact between the bar and the axle bits.
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      05-15-2022, 11:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisca455 View Post
SCMTX

I'm on 76k mile EDC and stock springs
Supercharged

Alignment:
Front, -3.0 camber, 0.40 degrees total toe OUT
Rear, -1.7 camber, .36 degrees total toe IN

Tires:
Nitto NT01s
Front, 275/35/18
Rear, 305/35/18

Hotchkis Bars:
Front setting, Soft (OEM End Links)
Rear setting, Soft (OEM End Links)


Even with both bars at the softest setting, the first time I backed out of the driveway, one wheel at a time, the additional rate at each wheel was immediately noticeable.


Keep in mind that I'm relatively inexperienced, so on track impressions are subjective and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I would judge the car as mostly neutral.
The front feels VERY secure (compared to the stock setup), never really pushes anymore, and I think it turns in nicely for a big car now.

The rear will sometimes step out on corner exits when overly aggressive on the throttle.
I haven't experienced the rear of the car trying to snap around mid corner, it just seems to grip and feels controllable when in long turns (T2 at Thunderhill East).

I have slid the car INTO a few corners when a tad too late with the brakes, but the front feels reasonably secure in those instances and the drama is usually short lived.

I was considering trying the front bar at the Medium setting, but a racer/instructor/Porche friend of mine that has ridden in the car for a couple of sessions (and experienced a slide entering T10 at Laguna), said he thought the car was surprisingly grippy and well mannered, and that I should fiddle with tire pressures before making a bar change.




The driver's side OEM front link puts the bar REALLY close to the height sensor, at full droop, but doesn't actually touch.
The OEM rear links seem to fit fine, no contact between the bar and the axle bits.
Just make sure the rear bar isn’t hitting the axle boots. It will rip them apart, and you will be super bummed. I had to adjust my end links significantly to avoid contact. Couldn’t even have the bar ends perfectly level at ride height.
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      05-15-2022, 12:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
Just make sure the rear bar isn’t hitting the axle boots. It will rip them apart, and you will be super bummed. I had to adjust my end links significantly to avoid contact. Couldn’t even have the bar ends perfectly level at ride height.
Good tip!

Here's the clearance at ride height (with the OEM link).
It looked to me that the half-shaft and the end link move at the same rate (both move with the upright), so if that's correct the bar clearance remains constant thru the suspension travel and seemed like adequate clearance.

(8 track days and tons of street miles on this setup so far)
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      05-15-2022, 05:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisca455 View Post
Good tip!

Here's the clearance at ride height (with the OEM link).
It looked to me that the half-shaft and the end link move at the same rate (both move with the upright), so if that's correct the bar clearance remains constant thru the suspension travel and seemed like adequate clearance.

(8 track days and tons of street miles on this setup so far)
Clearance at ride height does not remain the same throughout the range of articulation unfortunately, but it does appear that you probably have enough clearance. However, I would still check for a bit after install. Will be easy to see rubber on the bar if there is a clearance issue.

Edit: looking closely at the photo it does look like at least some contact has occurred, judging by the wear of the injecting molding parting line at the section under the bar.
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      07-07-2022, 04:25 PM   #12
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Update on my original post....

Front bar on second from full stiff, rear bar in the middle. New RT 660 285/3018 square. A couple of track days on the car, but not back to MSR Houston. Words can't express how much of a pita the install was on the rear bar....car on jackstands in the garage.

I am about to replace my second, driver side, outer CV boot. I believe what has happened twice... SLP end link bolt to the spindle has backed out. I had to use a SLIGHTLY shorter bolt to fit between the spindle and axle...left with not enough threads in the spindle, yes I used blue Loctite. My fix, I slightly drilled out the bolt hole on the spindle. bolted through spindle first, then end link, then nylock nut (in between the spindle and axle). to hold it all together. This appears to be working. However, I hadn't really thought about the sway bar rubbing on the boot. I assume with the end link just flopping around that is what destroyed the boot.
The car "seems" pretty balanced to me, BUT going from my e46 M3 to the e92 M3 I would have thought the e92 would have been significantly quicker. More or less same setups on both cars, bolt-ons, Bilstein coilovers, sway bars. I think think the obvious difference is the 992 Brembos with PFC 08 pads on the e46. I've destroyed a set of EBC blue stuff (they are crap). Ordered a Stopteck BBK in March and still haven't received them. Driving around on Hawk HP Plus....annoying everyone within 300' of my car. I am assuming much better brakes would be at least a couple of seconds quicker around a 2:20ish track? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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      07-07-2022, 07:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMTX View Post
Update on my original post....

Front bar on second from full stiff, rear bar in the middle. New RT 660 285/3018 square. A couple of track days on the car, but not back to MSR Houston. Words can't express how much of a pita the install was on the rear bar....car on jackstands in the garage.

I am about to replace my second, driver side, outer CV boot. I believe what has happened twice... SLP end link bolt to the spindle has backed out. I had to use a SLIGHTLY shorter bolt to fit between the spindle and axle...left with not enough threads in the spindle, yes I used blue Loctite. My fix, I slightly drilled out the bolt hole on the spindle. bolted through spindle first, then end link, then nylock nut (in between the spindle and axle). to hold it all together. This appears to be working. However, I hadn't really thought about the sway bar rubbing on the boot. I assume with the end link just flopping around that is what destroyed the boot.
The car "seems" pretty balanced to me, BUT going from my e46 M3 to the e92 M3 I would have thought the e92 would have been significantly quicker. More or less same setups on both cars, bolt-ons, Bilstein coilovers, sway bars. I think think the obvious difference is the 992 Brembos with PFC 08 pads on the e46. I've destroyed a set of EBC blue stuff (they are crap). Ordered a Stopteck BBK in March and still haven't received them. Driving around on Hawk HP Plus....annoying everyone within 300' of my car. I am assuming much better brakes would be at least a couple of seconds quicker around a 2:20ish track? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
A lot of people have destroyed boots from the hotchkis bar rubbing. I couldn’t set my sway bar at the optimal position (optimal being with the tab horizontal while loaded at ride height) without rubbing, so I got as close to it as possible without rubbing.

Brakes (with the same bias) won’t really make you faster on a single lap, unless you are having trouble modulating or something. They will let you run more laps without fading though. If the bbk modifies f:r bias substantially you can get smidge of lap time if you can extract all of the advantage (assuming the specific bias mod is actually advantageous for the car). That said, it’s possible that a novice driver can gain confidence knowing they have better brakes and push much harder. A couple seconds is a huge margin though - like the difference of good aero vs no aero.
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      07-18-2022, 08:47 PM   #14
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People shit on the stock brakes all the time on these cars ad I honestly cant see why. They feel fantastic imo. Throw on good pads and fluid and ur in business. I think people who don't have experience fade non-oem pads and say the brakes are trash when either they are overdriving the brakes or they equate pad fade to poor braking. Ive tracked on OEM BMW pads and they feel fine for the most part. Ive done 100+ track days, I race W2W, I know what good brakes feel like. This car has really good brakes.

As far as bar settings, a common misconception is that a stiffer front bar = more understeer and vice versa. McPherson suspension setups actually generate MORE front grip with a bigger front bar as it keeps the inside wheel down instead of letting it lift with a soft bar/setting. I like leaving the rear bar on a soft/medium setting depending on spring rate/tire and adding in as much front bar as I can to find a good balance.
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      07-19-2022, 02:02 AM   #15
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If you have a super stiff bar the inside wheel attached to the bar is coming off the ground.
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      07-28-2022, 01:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
If you have a super stiff bar the inside wheel attached to the bar is coming off the ground.
Indeed.
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      07-28-2022, 02:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartledoo View Post
If you have a super stiff bar the inside wheel attached to the bar is coming off the ground.
Indeed.
Looks cool, but not ideal to lose one of your sources of grip.
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      07-28-2022, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRLane View Post
Looks cool, but not ideal to lose one of your sources of grip.
True enough, but not much you can do about it in an autoX situation where there are many very fast transitions where on a track the transitions are higher speed but generally not as quick one on top of another. The suspension setup was also a big factor, as this pic was with stock struts/shocks.
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      07-28-2022, 06:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRLane View Post
Looks cool, but not ideal to lose one of your sources of grip.
True enough, but not much you can do about it in an autoX situation where there are many very fast transitions where on a track the transitions are higher speed but generally not as quick one on top of another. The suspension setup was also a big factor, as this pic was with stock struts/shocks.
Totally, to be clear I'm not dogging on that setup as it applies to your purpose just spewing obvious statements. 😆

I don't know the first thing about setting up for auto cross, but I'd imagine there is a fine line between managing a bunch of delayed weight transfer for max grip vs quick rotations.
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