BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
BPM
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-07-2009, 06:20 PM   #1
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

E92 M3 AP Racing BBK Review (long)

OK, I admit it, I’ve been holding out on you all. Now it’s out: I have AP Racing brakes front and rear on my E92 M3.

Name:  AP Racing Brakes on M3 Front.jpg
Views: 34017
Size:  170.7 KB

They are absolutely phenomenal – I’ve done three track days so far and they handle the heat with ease and deliver consistent braking and modulation over and over all day long on the track. They’re well-mannered on the street, too – quiet and smooth with absolutely no bad habits.

So, how did I end up with AP Racing, the brakes that most people don’t think of when they look at BBK’s?

Well, I spend enough time at the track that I decided that I wanted a track brake setup that I could just turn up and drive. I looked at Stoptech, Brembo and AP Racing BBK’s, and chose the AP Racing product.

You don't hear much about AP Racing in the aftermarket. The only place I’d seen their brakes on M3’s was in pictures of the E92 M3 GT2 and GT4. AP Racing’s HQ is in the south of England where more purpose-built race cars are made than the rest of the world combined. If you check the www.APRacing.com website Monday after a Formula 1 race, they post congratulations to the podium teams with AP Racing parts (they make brakes and clutches). Often it's three for three. Beyond their European presence, their catalog has pages of calipers and rotors purpose-built for NASCAR and other North American racing series.

After a lot of research and analysis, I concluded that AP Racing was the best choice for two reasons: physical size and customer service.

Size matters because of heat. Bigger chunks of metal do a better job of averaging out the heat spikes that happen on the track. With the marginal supply of cooling air on the M3, I wanted the biggest rotors and calipers I could find that would still fit under my 18” rims. AP Racing’s 18”-rim-friendly front rotors are bigger than both Brembo and Stoptech at 368mm, and the AP CP5555 calipers are huge. Everyone is hot for smaller and lighter, but I'll happily put up with an extra half-pound of aluminum if it keeps my brakes cool.

I also mentioned service as a deciding factor. Chris from Brake Pro’s was extraordinarily helpful through the whole process. I asked a lot of dumb questions and tested his patience at every turn, I’m sure. He was quick to respond and made sure I had the information I needed to make up my mind. I purchased the Brake Pro’s AP Racing kits from Renn Spec, and Simon and Gary were also exceptional to deal with. I was very pleased with the whole process.

Upon receipt, the kits were complete, beautifully finished, with quality workmanship throughout. It was impressive. The caliper finish is some kind of special paint that’s tougher than powder coating and cleans really easily. As far as installation was concerned, they went on easily and everything was perfect.

The fronts require a 10 or 12mm spacer for clearance with BMW OEM 18” front rims, and Simon made it easy by supplying the Macht Schnell product with black bolts to match the factory bolts on the rear. BMW OEM 18x9.5” rear rims fit without spacers front and rear; that was important to me because I run a square track setup. Of course, BMW OEM 19’s fit without spacers at either end.

So, what do I think now that I have them and I’ve run three track days? They’re amazing. No hint of fade, ever. Great modulation. Easy to manage. I’ve had to learn braking all over again – it’s way too easy to be lazy and just brake late all the time. After three outings, there is no ridging on the rotors, the pads are straight and barely worn at all. These things are phenomenal!

The biggest surprise of all was the Mintex Xtreme Motorsport pads that come with the Brake Pro’s kits. They are a cross-over street/track pad with a 1300 degree MOT. They’re as good as any track pad I’ve ever used and I don’t have to change them before and after every outing.

Now I just change my tires, round up my gas cans and head for the track. It’s a beautiful thing!
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 06:44 PM   #2
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
United_States
337
Rep
1,805
Posts

Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

iTrader: (1)

sounds amazing! i need some...stock brakes fade
__________________
17' M2 DCT - KW CS - Re71r - Carbotech
BW C13 - 1:57:2
ACS - 1:49:6
WSIR - 1:30:6
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 08:09 PM   #3
datbimmerdoe
Lieutenant General
datbimmerdoe's Avatar
United_States
1265
Rep
17,493
Posts

Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the info.
__________________
#datbimmerdoe #thatbimmertho

FOLLOW @datbimmerdoe on INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 08:31 PM   #4
sparkyg
Brigadier General
sparkyg's Avatar
Canada
142
Rep
3,522
Posts

Drives: work truck
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oil Country

iTrader: (5)

Well said John, good to hear.

Can you comment on the $$$?

I have heard from others there is a price premium to get the AP brakes over say a Brembo setup
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 10:07 PM   #5
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
Well said John, good to hear.

Can you comment on the $$$?

I have heard from others there is a price premium to get the AP brakes over say a Brembo setup
I'm not actually sure about the pricing compared to the competition. I'm confident that they cost more than the Stoptech's, but I don't know about the Brembo's. I was happy with the pricing I got from Renn Spec, and along the way Brake Pro's put them "on special" so the pricing improved even more.

I'd summarize it as "less than Brembo, more than Stoptech, shop around".
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 10:49 PM   #6
JC919
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
72
Rep
1,804
Posts

Drives: CSL
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the review, I've been considering these for a little while. I'm favoring Stop Tech as I had them on my last car, but these are second on my list. Again, thanks
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
2007 GT3 Clubsport w/CGT buckets in Scotland
2003 CSL, SG, Alcon BBK SOLD
2002 M5, SSII/Blk and bone stock. In storage back home in TX
2008 M3, AW/Blk 6MT, lots of track stuff SOLD
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 10:58 PM   #7
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
Thanks for the review, I've been considering these for a little while. I'm favoring Stop Tech as I had them on my last car, but these are second on my list. Again, thanks
Stoptech's are great - I had them on my last car.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2009, 11:06 PM   #8
JC919
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
72
Rep
1,804
Posts

Drives: CSL
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

iTrader: (0)

How's the balance with the brakes on the front only? This is the setup I had on my old S4 with stop techs up front, but that was different b/c the standard rears on that car were crap.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
2007 GT3 Clubsport w/CGT buckets in Scotland
2003 CSL, SG, Alcon BBK SOLD
2002 M5, SSII/Blk and bone stock. In storage back home in TX
2008 M3, AW/Blk 6MT, lots of track stuff SOLD
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 12:27 AM   #9
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
How's the balance with the brakes on the front only? This is the setup I had on my old S4 with stop techs up front, but that was different b/c the standard rears on that car were crap.
It's too bad I don't have a photo of the rears - they're on the car!

I did drive the front-only setup for a few weeks while the rears were on backorder and I ran two track days in June that way. It drove fine as far as balance was concerned (I had Pagid RS19 pads on the rear) even on the track in the wet. However, the rear rotors were about 50 degrees Celsius hotter than the fronts and the fluid in the rear calipers continued to take a beating. It might have been ok on a long-run basis if I'd had put some effort into finding a pad combo to balance the heat load front and rear, but since I had the rear BBK on order, I didn't bother. They were fine on the street.

Once I installed the AP Racing rear kit the rear rotors run 50 degrees cooler than the fronts. I've spent two days trail-braking into hairpins and sweepers and the balance is perfect.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 05:39 AM   #10
bigjae1976
Major General
bigjae1976's Avatar
1564
Rep
8,074
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.25]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
That's a very helpful review. I plan to run a square 18" setup as well.

What pad options do you have with the AP Racing brakes? Also, how much are the replacement disks?
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 Imola Red
2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 10:47 AM   #11
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
That's a very helpful review. I plan to run a square 18" setup as well.

What pad options do you have with the AP Racing brakes? Also, how much are the replacement disks?
This is not an exhaustive list of alternate pads - I'm sure that Brake Pro's can provide a longer list if you contact them. For my purposes, I only looked long enough to make sure that I had choices that would work for me before I bought the kits. I wanted to be sure that if I didn't like the Mintex pads, I could switch to something else. It turns out I really like the Mintex pads.

Other than the Mintex pads they come with:

Front pads for the CP5555 caliper: Hawk - HB109; Ferodo - FRP3054; Pagid - 1903; Performance Friction - 7790; Porterfield - AP7790;

Rear pads for the CP5306 caliper: Ferodo - FRP3083; Pagid -20345;

I don't know how much the replacement rotors would cost - you should contact Brake Pro's directly for that information.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 01:08 PM   #12
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
7988
Rep
18,766
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (19)

Garage List
2018 BMW i3s  [0.00]
2010 BMW M3  [6.50]
2015 BMW M4  [5.25]
Here's a closer shot of that front rotor showing the strap drive system:





Great choice, we're running the 7100/7150 setup as well and couldn't be happier. We're about to get some track use on these in the next few weeks.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com · web: https://europeanautosource.com· tel 866.669.0705 · ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG · FACEBOOK · YOUTUBE · FLICKR · INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 01:51 PM   #13
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Wow JAJ, yes, you really managed to hold out on us all. Good thing you came clean with this thread!

Can you elaborate a bit more on the finer points of the track performance of this system? You say that they are easy to modulate and you can be lazy and brake late. How noticable is the difference compared to stock? Is it more of a confidence issue, or a pure objective performance benefit, or both (I suspect it is the latter)?

Thanks, and ENJOY!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 03:18 PM   #14
RENN Spec
Major
United_States
141
Rep
1,314
Posts

Drives: 488 Pista, M2CS, Tundra
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Arcadia, CA

iTrader: (3)

Wow, those BBK look amazing.
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2009, 11:14 PM   #15
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Wow JAJ, yes, you really managed to hold out on us all. Good thing you came clean with this thread!

Can you elaborate a bit more on the finer points of the track performance of this system? You say that they are easy to modulate and you can be lazy and brake late. How noticable is the difference compared to stock? Is it more of a confidence issue, or a pure objective performance benefit, or both (I suspect it is the latter)?

Thanks, and ENJOY!
I do open lapping days at Mission Raceway Park, a short 1.8 mile track with 9 corners. Very technical, high fuel consumption, murder on brakes.

With the factory brakes, I had to brake early and essentially let the howling (with RS-19's) be my guide to brake management. If I went beyond the high pitched howl, they'd start to fade badly and the pedal would head toward the floor. Heel and toe was challenging, to say the least. Every corner was a combo of brake management and steering rhythm. You could go fast, but every time out was a challenge to make sure you didn't overheat and lose the brakes for the day.

The AP brakes don't object to anything I've done with them so far. There's a hairpin at the end of the Mission pit straight. I tried going deeper and deeper into the hairpin, and finally knocked nearly 300' off my braking point. At that point I was running out of tires instead. The brakes were fine, but the car was so out of balance on the corner entry that my times got worse. That's why I said I had to re-learn braking - they'll do anything I ask so now I'm working on better questions, if you catch my drift.

There is a confidence issue too. I ran one day recently at Portland International Raceway. I had a great instructor who really knew the track, but I kept having trouble with the visual of staying full throttle much deeper into the corners than I'd ever gone before. I only had 80 minutes of track time to get readjusted, and I really need another hour or two to get it right.

So, to answer your question - "it's both" - confidence and outright performance at a totally new level (at least for me in this car).

Last edited by JAJ; 09-09-2009 at 10:11 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2009, 07:42 AM   #16
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I do open lapping days at Mission Raceway Park, a short 1.8 mile track with 9 corners. Very technical, high fuel consumption, murder on brakes.

With the factory brakes, I had to brake early and essentially let the howing (with RS-19's) be my guide to brake management. If I went beyond the high pitched howl, they'd start to fade badly and the pedal would head toward the floor. Heel and toe was challenging, to say the least. Every corner was a combo of brake management and steering rhythm. You could go fast, but every time out was a challenge to make sure you didn't overheat and lose the brakes for the day.

The AP brakes don't object to anything I've done with them so far. There's a hairpin at the end of the Mission pit straight. I tried going deeper and deeper into the hairpin, and finally knocked nearly 300' off my braking point. At that point I was running out of tires instead. The brakes were fine, but the car was so out of balance on the corner entry that my times got worse. That's why I said I had to re-learn braking - they'll do anything I ask so now I'm working on better questions, if you catch my drift.

There is a confidence issue too. I ran one day recently at Portland International Raceway. I had a great instructor who really knew the track, but I kept having trouble with the visual of staying full throttle much deeper into the corners than I'd ever gone before. I only had 80 minutes of track time to get readjusted, and I really need another hour or two to get it right.

So, to answer your question - "it's both" - confidence and outright performance at a totally new level (at least for me in this car).
Thanks for the detailed feedback. Yes, by "latter", I also meant "both"--poor wording. I am not surprised that a high quality setup like this one will yield improvements on both fronts.

Another question: I found that SS line and Castrol fluid improved pedal feel/firmness significantly in the stock setup. What lines and fluid were you running with the stock system?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2009, 10:10 AM   #17
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Thanks for the detailed feedback. Yes, by "latter", I also meant "both"--poor wording. I am not surprised that a high quality setup like this one will yield improvements on both fronts.

Another question: I found that SS line and Castrol fluid improved pedal feel/firmness significantly in the stock setup. What lines and fluid were you running with the stock system?
With the stock brakes I was running Stoptech stainless lines and Castrol SRF fluid . The AP Racing kits come with Goodridge lines and I still have two liters of SRF so that's what I'm using with them. I'm planning to stay with SRF so I only have to flush them once a year, and maybe bleed them once or twice.

In mid August, after two hard days at the track with 90-degree plus weather the brake pedal was still firm and at the top of its travel. I was going to bleed them and decided there was nothing to gain, so I didn't bother. They're that good.
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2009, 11:56 AM   #18
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
With the stock brakes I was running Stoptech stainless lines and Castrol SRF fluid . The AP Racing kits come with Goodridge lines and I still have two liters of SRF so that's what I'm using with them. I'm planning to stay with SRF so I only have to flush them once a year, and maybe bleed them once or twice.

In mid August, after two hard days at the track with 90-degree plus weather the brake pedal was still firm and at the top of its travel. I was going to bleed them and decided there was nothing to gain, so I didn't bother. They're that good.
OK. Thanks for the info.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 09:51 AM   #19
mastek
e36s54, e70x5d
mastek's Avatar
United_States
150
Rep
1,723
Posts

Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (15)

so you say you were getting fade and howling with the stock brakes + StopTech SS Lines + Castrol SRF Fluid + Pagid RS19's on all corners?


What pads are u running @ the track on the AP BBK?

Is ur AP BBK 4-pot or 6-pot?
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 10:16 AM   #20
aus
Major General
United_States
887
Rep
9,031
Posts

Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
There is a confidence issue too. I ran one day recently at Portland International Raceway. I had a great instructor who really knew the track, but I kept having trouble with the visual of staying full throttle much deeper into the corners than I'd ever gone before. I only had 80 minutes of track time to get readjusted, and I really need another hour or two to get it right.

So, to answer your question - "it's both" - confidence and outright performance at a totally new level (at least for me in this car).
Thanks for the write up... and don't rea 08M3's recent update on the Moton's. You may end up spending more money!!
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 08:02 PM   #21
bigjae1976
Major General
bigjae1976's Avatar
1564
Rep
8,074
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.25]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
This is not an exhaustive list of alternate pads - I'm sure that Brake Pro's can provide a longer list if you contact them. For my purposes, I only looked long enough to make sure that I had choices that would work for me before I bought the kits. I wanted to be sure that if I didn't like the Mintex pads, I could switch to something else. It turns out I really like the Mintex pads.

Other than the Mintex pads they come with:

Front pads for the CP5555 caliper: Hawk - HB109; Ferodo - FRP3054; Pagid - 1903; Performance Friction - 7790; Porterfield - AP7790;

Rear pads for the CP5306 caliper: Ferodo - FRP3083; Pagid -20345;

I don't know how much the replacement rotors would cost - you should contact Brake Pro's directly for that information.
Thanks...just what I was looking for. The reason I ask is from experience with my UUC kit on my 330. Easy to find rotors since they are the stock M3 rotors with plenty of choices (OEM, OEM-Euro, and UUC to name a few). The problem is brake pads for the front. Unless I go direct from UUC, I have to mod the pad to get them to fit under the bridge.

I tried to contact EAS (ahem....) via PM about rotor prices for the AP kit, still haven't found anything out yet.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 Imola Red
2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 08:09 PM   #22
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
7988
Rep
18,766
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (19)

Garage List
2018 BMW i3s  [0.00]
2010 BMW M3  [6.50]
2015 BMW M4  [5.25]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Thanks...just what I was looking for. The reason I ask is from experience with my UUC kit on my 330. Easy to find rotors since they are the stock M3 rotors with plenty of choices (OEM, OEM-Euro, and UUC to name a few). The problem is brake pads for the front. Unless I go direct from UUC, I have to mod the pad to get them to fit under the bridge.

I tried to contact EAS (ahem....) via PM about rotor prices for the AP kit, still haven't found anything out yet.
I don't have a PM from you, can you forward a copy to me? I'll need to know if you want slotted or x-drilled option as well.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com · web: https://europeanautosource.com· tel 866.669.0705 · ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG · FACEBOOK · YOUTUBE · FLICKR · INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:10 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST