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      11-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #45
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most accidents ive seen are in advanced groups with guys really pushing the limit. slow guys do make errors but easier to avoid disaster at slower speeds, even with less skill. usually.
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      11-15-2013, 08:53 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril Blue View Post
If I said that - or anything slightly resembling that - please quote it. Because I'm having a problem locating it.

My statements don't need translation.
No, I didn't say YOU said that. I didn't quote you.

In any case, a vast majority of track people I know didn't participate in events run by instructor-led organizers and we all turned out alright. I've met and befriended a lot of people at the tracks and I personally don't know a single person who's had this type of incident.

Having said that, yeah, those organizers are taking risks; but the flip side is, having each and every novices get paired up with an instructor has its down sides too [some novices simply don't need and/or want instruction, requiring instructions and not having enough instructors for 1-to-1 ratio would force the drivers to wait a lot (a lot of downtime), some instructors are simply a waste of time, etc]. One novice driver to whom this type of incident happens to versus nine hundred and ninety nine other novices who progress on without incidents seems to be an acceptable ratio.
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Last edited by OC3; 11-15-2013 at 09:10 PM..
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      11-15-2013, 09:19 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
I've met and befriended a lot of people at the tracks and I personally don't know a single person who's had this type of incident.
what do you mean by this comment? that you dont know anyone who drives a white car and cut that corner inside in the dirt to hit the wall or a more general you dont know anyone who has made a mistake and crashed? if the second i find this impossible to believe as i know tons of people that have had incidents including racers, instructors, down to novice, and seen it happen numerous times. my first track day ever i witnesses 3 serious accidents that made me question what the hell i was doing. and my last time out i passed a person in what seemed like a safe enough spin only to find out a person a couple cars back got target fixation and drove right into them totalling both cars.
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      11-15-2013, 09:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
what do you mean by this comment? that you dont know anyone who drives a white car and cut that corner inside in the dirt to hit the wall or a more general you dont know anyone who has made a mistake and crashed? if the second i find this impossible to believe as i know tons of people that have had incidents including racers, instructors, down to novice, and seen it happen numerous times. my first track day ever i witnesses 3 serious accidents that made me question what the hell i was doing.
Re: "to hit the wall" and "made a mistake and crashed," aren't those the same? lol

I mean crash their car.

Of 62 track days I've gone to, I've only seen 3 cars crash (1 novice and 2 advanced) and I don't know them personally.

Re: all the crashes you witnessed, I was gonna needle you with a "you Northwest people don't know how to drive" or a "we SoCal people are better drivers," but I think it's probably due to tracks here in SoCal usually having lots of run-off's and very little walls. So, off's don't usually result in crashes. You see my videos with wild antics, but I wouldn't be doing that if I was on tracks with grass instead of dirt, with walls on both sides of the track so close to the track almost the entire lengths of the tracks, and even trees! I'd be focused on driving more consistent and clinical like CanAutM3.
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      11-15-2013, 09:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Re: "to hit the wall" and "made a mistake and crashed," aren't those the same? lol

I mean crash their car.

Of 62 track days I've gone to, I've only seen 3 cars crash (1 novice and 2 advanced) and I don't know them personally.

Re: all the crashes you witnessed, I was gonna needle you with a "you Northwest people don't know how to drive" or a "we SoCal people are better drivers," but I think it's probably due to tracks here in SoCal usually having lots of run-off's and very little walls. So, off's don't usually result in crashes. You see my videos with wild antics, but I wouldn't be doing that if I was on tracks with grass instead of dirt, with walls on both sides of the track so close to the track almost the entire lengths of the tracks, and even trees! I'd be focused on driving more consistent and clinical like CanAutM3.
no they arent the same. i was asking if you were being specific about you not knowing a person in a white car in that corner having crashed or dont know anyone at all. a track with lots of runoff is good. but at some point that luck runs out and you hit the one thing out there that you wish you hadnt and end up on your lid or something. not that i would know.
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      11-15-2013, 09:50 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
no they arent the same. i was asking if you were being specific about you not knowing a person in a white car in that corner having crashed or dont know anyone at all. a track with lots of runoff is good. but at some point that luck runs out and you hit the one thing out there that you wish you hadnt and end up on your lid or something. not that i would know.


Nobody I know personally crashed their car. Some came close.

Of people I do know, I saw plenty of close-calls when they dropped a wheel or two onto the dirt at track out, then they'd hook their steering wheel back towards the track desperately trying to get back onto the track and shoot across the track and wind up on the other side, either going into the dirt or narrowly missing a wall. Never understood why they wouldn't just counter-steer and gradually just get back onto the track.

I saw a video a few days ago of track buddy who is an advanced driver in a spin at an extremely high-speed that, if that happened on tracks in north or northeast regions, that car would be totaled and he'd be rushed to a hospital.
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      11-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post


Nobody I know personally crashed their car. Some came close.

Of people I do know, I saw plenty of close-calls when they dropped a wheel or two onto the dirt at track out, then they'd hook their steering wheel back towards the track desperately trying to get back onto the track and shoot across the track and wind up on the other side, either going into the dirt or narrowly missing a wall. Never understood why they wouldn't just counter-steer and gradually just get back onto the track.

I saw a video a few days ago of track buddy who is an advanced driver in a spin at an extremely high-speed that, if that happened on tracks in north or northeast regions, that car would be totaled and he'd be rushed to a hospital.
i have already spun my e46 bigger than sh^&. i have been on nt01s for a long time and didnt change out the first session so was on ad08s which is rare. i decided i was going to hand a gtr his ass and basically forgot what tires i was on. spun and went off on a forgiving track, thank god. filled the car with dirt and went past the turn station backwards but went on to have a great day. ive had my share of close calls and sideways moments at 100 plus that make you pucker for sure.
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      11-15-2013, 10:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
i have already spun my e46 bigger than sh^&. i have been on nt01s for a long time and didnt change out the first session so was on ad08s which is rare. i decided i was going to hand a gtr his ass and basically forgot what tires i was on. spun and went off on a forgiving track, thank god. filled the car with dirt and went past the turn station backwards but went on to have a great day. ive had my share of close calls and sideways moments at 100 plus that make you pucker for sure.
Post the spin video!
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      11-15-2013, 10:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Post the spin video!
Don't have video. I don't use my gopro every session. Seems I miss the excitment.
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      11-16-2013, 12:20 AM   #54
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The limited ones ive been to ive seen a few crashes. More importantly are not necessarily the crashes but just the lack of awareness which i believe is just a crash waiting to happen. I mean 15 black flags on the first session of a group is horrible. When the lead instructor asks what happened in the download meeting and all of them they "i was going too fast" when in reality they werent, you know youre in a group with shit that is bound to happen. Lol.
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      11-16-2013, 09:58 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
The limited ones ive been to ive seen a few crashes. More importantly are not necessarily the crashes but just the lack of awareness which i believe is just a crash waiting to happen. I mean 15 black flags on the first session of a group is horrible. When the lead instructor asks what happened in the download meeting and all of them they "i was going too fast" when in reality they werent, you know youre in a group with shit that is bound to happen. Lol.
yeah i would stay clear of that if i could. usually early runs people go out too hot and pay for it. i start my tire pressure fairly low so take a couple slow warm up laps then use the first session as a refresher and am not trying to set the world on fire. i let people pass who promptly spin off trying to stay ahead of my slow pace or prove something early. always makes me laugh. dont get caught up in what the other idiots are doing and be spatially aware and you should survive.
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      11-16-2013, 12:41 PM   #56
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Yep. Agree.

In that particular classroom the instructor got fed up and said bullshit there are guys out there with shittier cars going faster thru the same turn than you guys. You dont know how to drive. So learn if anything. Lol
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      11-24-2013, 08:01 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiXiS 18 View Post
I was there that day. Although I didn't see the crash happen (was in a different run group) this is what I heard. This was a beginner session. The driver was all over the track in the previous session, had no sense of car control, traction control off. From what I heard this was a cool down lap (last lap). MY theory is that I believe that the driver didn't see the checkered flag on the straight/oval and coming into T3 didn't anticipate how much slower the driver in front of him would be moving. What follows is what you see in the video. Also someone asked why the camaro was so far to the right, that's the driving line. You can look up some videos on youtube but that's the line everyone takes. Driver was taken by ambulance to the hospital and the track was shut down for about 1.5 hours until they could get the ambulance back.
I was in this run group and it was the purple group (intermediate high or something like that) not beginner. The group had some strange rules allowing pass anywhere on track w/ point by and guys were giving me a point bys in corners and were going offline to allow passes, some definitely didnt belong in the group.
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      11-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaE92 View Post
I was in this run group and it was the purple group (intermediate high or something like that) not beginner. The group had some strange rules allowing pass anywhere on track w/ point by and guys were giving me a point bys in corners and were going offline to allow passes, some definitely didnt belong in the group.
I like running pass anywhere with a point groups. Still allows you to wait to pass if in a sketchy spot or run different lines more like racing scenarios.
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      11-24-2013, 10:55 PM   #59
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I was at that track today.. I missed the turn 3-4 times.. You can just go straight...

Totally clueless to why he made that turn
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      11-27-2013, 08:46 AM   #60
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Glad to see the participation in this post. I did get another important tip/lesson from the responses. That is...to study the escape routes at each track. Something that is really not discussed during any driver's meeting I have been to. Thank you fellow track rats.
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      11-27-2013, 06:59 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
So, novices in instructor-led events never have incidents?
Yes. At least in PROPERLY organized events.

In my 13+ year working with the Pacific Region BMW CCA driving events, I have not yet seen a driver induced car to car or car to wall incident in our novice group. Given the average of about 10 days a year, that's well over 100 days without a driver induced incident that requires repairs.

Can't say the same for other organizers. But the Pacific Region BMW CCA has managed to teach all the fundamentals to novices in a relatively safe environment.

Knock on wood.
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      11-27-2013, 07:37 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Yes. At least in PROPERLY organized events.

In my 13+ year working with the Pacific Region BMW CCA driving events, I have not yet seen a driver induced car to car or car to wall incident in our novice group. Given the average of about 10 days a year, that's well over 100 days without a driver induced incident that requires repairs.

Can't say the same for other organizers. But the Pacific Region BMW CCA has managed to teach all the fundamentals to novices in a relatively safe environment.

Knock on wood.
Well, good for CCA. But, as I'm sure you'd agree, CCA is but a portion in the HPDE world...
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      11-27-2013, 10:58 PM   #63
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I am not sure what it is lately, but track section of the forum is filled with threads about accidents like never before..

If nothing mechanical happened to this guy's car, he really f'ed up and paid for it. Very unfortunate.
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