Dyno Rematch: Battle between Dinan & RD Sport for 4.6L Stroker Motor Bragging Rights

[MrStinky]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

Also, forgot to add a couple more points, just for interest:

3, The average output for a stock M3 running 91 AKI is ~330 hp, stddev 9.

4, The output for a stock M3 running 93 or 94 AKI is ~340 hp, stddev 7.

In these cases, there aren't enough samples to make as confident a prediction as in 1 and 2 above but the benefit of higher octane is clear.

Pat

So basically 335-350 as I initially said is about right yet people jump down my throatt

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by MrStinky

So basically 335-350 as I initially said is about right yet people jump down my throatt

Yes but now you have data to defend your position

Besides, we didn't really jump down your throat. We just asked for your sources, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to ask of people.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

Also, forgot to add a couple more points, just for interest:

3, The average output for a stock M3 running 91 AKI is ~330 hp, stddev 9.

4, The output for a stock M3 running 93 or 94 AKI is ~340 hp, stddev 7.

In these cases, there aren't enough samples to make as confident a prediction as in 1 and 2 above but the benefit of higher octane is clear.

Pat

If you want to have some real fun and spark a real controversy, go look at the differences between 6MT and DCT on bone stock cars. I did this once before and found a noticeable difference between them. I was careful to use same dyno, different cars for the comparison. Now that I can store dyno ID in the database, it would be interesting to do it again with even more data. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you the data.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Two ways to find out the abbreviations:
1) Click "Output Type" -> "Long"
2) Click "Mods & Logs Explained"

EXHESR = Eisenmann Race Exhaust

Ahhh thx brotha!

Going to Shift S3ctor tomorrow? Would be terrific to have you. And sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

[sales@ESSTuning]

On our Dynojet the average stock M3 on 91 octane makes right around 330 whp SAE.

[FogCityM3]

Interesting results, what parameters in BT did you utilize to see knock events? thx in advance.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Data Logging with BT Tool
RPM
Throttle Position
Gear Selection
Intake Air Temperature (IAT)
Spark Advance (can see knock)
Both O2 Sensors (converts to Air-Fuel-Ratio)
Oil Temperature
Water Temperature

[Petros]

Originally Posted by regular guy

If you want to have some real fun and spark a real controversy, go look at the differences between 6MT and DCT on bone stock cars. I did this once before and found a noticeable difference between them. I was careful to use same dyno, different cars for the comparison. Now that I can store dyno ID in the database, it would be interesting to do it again with even more data. Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you the data.

Are you saying there is a different power output between them?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Petros

Are you saying there is a different power output between them?

There is no power output difference between motors, but there certainly could be different mechanical efficiency losses between transmissions.

Here's a list of all the bone stock entries from the Dyno Database SAE corrected on 91 octane -- in order of output.

The lowest DCT is 15 whp higher than the lowest 6MT. The highest 6MT is 20 whp lower than the highest DCT.

Average DCT in the list is 337 whp. Average 6MT in the list is 326 whp.

HP	TQ	Corr.	User	Mods
357 @ 7900	262 @ 3915	SAE (J1349)	Longboarder	STOCK, 91US, DCT
343 @ 8150	248 @ 3950	SAE (J1349)	Sig5x	STOCK, 91US, DCT
342 @ 8200	247 @ 3900	SAE (J1349)	Encore Innovation	STOCK, 91US, DCT
341 @ 8250	250 @ 3950	SAE (J1349)	slipstream	STOCK, 91US, DCT
340 @ 8225	257 @ 3700	SAE (J1349)	EAS	STOCK, 91US, DCT
339 @ 8100	249 @ 3750	SAE (J1349)	Green-Eggs	STOCK, 91US, DCT
338 @ 8200	247 @ 3950	SAE (J1349)	Sleeper	STOCK, 91US, DCT
337 @ 8200	254 @ 3900	SAE (J1349)	DLSJ5	STOCK, 91US, DCT
337 @ 8000	247 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	JonMartin	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
336 @ 8250	248 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	mexicanmike	STOCK, 91US, DCT
333 @ 8150	246 @ 3900	SAE (J1349)	dcstep	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
332 @ 7810	249 @ 3950	SAE (J1349)	KZ	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
327 @ 8150	242 @ 4010	SAE (J1349)	catpat8000	STOCK, 91US, DCT
324 @ 7900	252 @ 3800	SAE (J1349)	Nick@Jlevi SW	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
322 @ 8200	238 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	PencilGeek	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
321 @ 8150	238 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	Rom3n	STOCK, 91US, DCT
320 @ 8200	238 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	Rom3n	STOCK, 91US, DCT
319 @ 8150	245 @ 4000	SAE (J1349)	tightie	STOCK, 91US, 6MT
312 @ 7800	238 @ 3900	SAE (J1349)	FStop7	STOCK, 91US, 6MT

[Richbot]

Dct seems to dyno a little bit lower than the 6mt cars, somewhere in the 10whp range. Likely due to more windage and internal friction in the dct with its increased number of spinny roundy bits

Accel in gear seems to bear this out too based on some stock accelerometer data I've seen, with the extra shift speed and gearing advantage of the dct making up for it especially in the first three gears. Once you get into higher speeds with the 3-4 and 4-5 shifts, the 6mt starts making ground on the dct. Makes sense given the time in gear is shorter and shift speed makes a bigger difference at low speeds. Considering its almost a 50lb weight penalty i think they did a great job offering an automatic with zero performance disadvantage and many advantages in the real workd, dynos are dYnos snd the road is the road

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Dct seems to dyno a little bit lower than the 6mt cars, somewhere in the 10whp range. Likely due to more windage and internal friction in the dct with its increased number of spinny roundy bits

Huh?

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Huh?

Weird that's the opposite result from what I had seen in my look through the database a while back. Must not have been much data back then

I wonder then why the 6speed cars seem to have steeper accel curves at higher speeds in the data i looked through? It was only a few cars so maybe not enough to show a trend, could have been a couple of weaker or heavier optioned dct cars

Actually now that i think of it i dont even know if the vbox data i looked at were done on the same day

Also just realized you'd have to dyno the dct in 7th to use a 1:1 ratio, which i am sure nobody is doing

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Weird that's the opposite result from what I had seen in my look through the database a while back. Must not have been much data back then

I wonder then why the 6speed cars seem to have steeper accel curves at higher speeds in the data i looked through? It was only a few cars so maybe not enough to show a trend, could have been a couple of weaker or heavier optioned dct cars

Actually now tat i think of it i dont even know if the vbox data i looked at were done on the same day

The Dyno DB data for bone stock cars on 91 octane always has showed this. I noticed this 3 to 4+ years ago. Because of this trend, that's exactly why I added tracking for DCT vs. 6MT in the database -- to keep track of transmission type as it appears to play a role in the results. I don't remember exactly when I added that feature, but it was probably close to 4+ years ago (late 2009, early 2010).

[8k3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

The Dyno DB data for bone stock cars on 91 octane always has showed this. I noticed this 3 to 4+ years ago. Because of this trend, that's exactly why I added tracking for DCT vs. 6MT in the database -- to keep track of transmission type as it appears to play a role in the results. I don't remember exactly when I added that feature, but it was probably close to 4+ years ago (late 2009, early 2010).

Might be irrelavant, but does it matter what gear the DCT and MT were in when they were on the Dyno, perhaps this factors in somehow?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by 8k3

Might be irrelavant, but does it matter what gear the DCT and MT were in when they were on the Dyno, perhaps this factors in somehow?

It is relevant -- very relevant. On the Dynojet, 4th gear on DCT and 6MT seem to produce the highest results. Only seven of these entries above have dyno files to verify the gear ratio. The others are not known with absolute certainty. But I know some of the other 91 octane entries, and even though their files aren't in the database, I know three of the other 6MT's were dyno'd correctly in 4th gear.

So as long as the 6MT wasn't dyno'd in 3rd or 5th, then I think it's a fair comparison.

Longboarder: DCT-5th
Sig5x: DCT-4th
Green-Eggs: DCT-5th
Sleeper: DCT-4th
MexicanMike: DCT-4th
Catpat8000: DCT-4th

KZ: 6MT-4th

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by regular guy

The Dyno DB data for bone stock cars on 91 octane always has showed this. I noticed this 3 to 4+ years ago. Because of this trend, that's exactly why I added tracking for DCT vs. 6MT in the database -- to keep track of transmission type as it appears to play a role in the results. I don't remember exactly when I added that feature, but it was probably close to 4+ years ago (late 2009, early 2010).

I used Regular Guy's data and looked at stock M3s dynoed with 91 AKI, both with MT and DCT.

There isn't enough data to state a result with any kind of certainty and the error bars are pretty wide on these results. There are only 7 stock MT cars dynoed with 91 AKI and 10 cars with DCT dynoed with 91 AKI.

If you only look at these cars, the DCT cars, on average, dyno HIGHER, not lower.

Stock M3, DCT, 91 AKI: 334 hp, stddev 8 hp
Stock M3, MT, 91 AKI: 326 hp, stddev 9 hp

So the MT car may have a HP advantage but the current data doesn't support that hypothesis. I have not corrected for the gear used to dyno the cars (because I don't know it).

Also, I would like to stress that if we had 3x or 4x as many results, we could learn a lot more. We could state with more certainty what gears produce best power, what bolt-ons produce, etc.

Pat

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Also just realized you'd have to dyno the dct in 7th to use a 1:1 ratio, which i am sure nobody is doing

I don't think you can dyno in 7th gear on DCT cars - redline would fall above the top speed limiter.

[MFL]

Reviving this.

I'm looking for a local (Greater Seattle Area) Dinan Stroker to dyno back to back with my FBO Ethanol Tuned 4.0. I've offered lunch and free dyno time, we'll see if anyone bites.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by MFL

Reviving this.

I'm looking for a local (Greater Seattle Area) Dinan Stroker to dyno back to back with my FBO Ethanol Tuned 4.0. I've offered lunch and free dyno time, we'll see if anyone bites.

Trailer it down here to the San Francisco area, I'll arrange for the strokers, provide full data logging, pay for the dyno time, AND take you to Napa for wine tasting.

[MFL]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Trailer it down here to the San Francisco area, I'll arrange for the strokers, provide full data logging, pay for the dyno time, AND take you to Napa for wine tasting.

...The funny thing is that in spite of the inevitable outcome of normal people concluding that the Dinan Stroker isn't worth it, this proposition is still tempting minus the whole wine thing.

[pbonsalb]

Worth it is a relative term. People like me, who will never be able to afford a Dinan stroker, have to be content with the gains from bolt on mods that cost 1/10 as much. Definitely more bang for the buck -- maybe 50% of the gain for maybe 10% of the cost. But if money was not a concern and I wanted my naturally aspirated M3 to be as powerful as possible, I'd be looking at stroker motors.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Trailer it down here to the San Francisco area, I'll arrange for the strokers, provide full data logging, pay for the dyno time, AND take you to Napa for wine tasting.

Hey, I had no idea you were bay area local. I will be hosting a dyno day in Hayward April 11th. I would love if you could come out. It will mostly be FBO E9X M3's, s65 1m clone, dinan stroker, some supercharged e9x and some f8x cars in various stages of modding.

If you cant make it but have any other suggestions or input before the day, your advice is appreciated.

Originally Posted by MFL

...The funny thing is that in spite of the inevitable outcome of normal people concluding that the Dinan Stroker isn't worth it, this proposition is still tempting minus the whole wine thing.

You inspired me. I have a dyno day set for April 11th.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Worth it is a relative term. People like me, who will never be able to afford a Dinan stroker, have to be content with the gains from bolt on mods that cost 1/10 as much. Definitely more bang for the buck -- maybe 50% of the gain for maybe 10% of the cost. But if money was not a concern and I wanted my naturally aspirated M3 to be as powerful as possible, I'd be looking at stroker motors.

This is really it.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Hey, I had no idea you were bay area local. I will be hosting a dyno day in Hayward April 11th. I would love if you could come out. It will mostly be FBO E9X M3's, s65 1m clone, dinan stroker, some supercharged e9x and some f8x cars in various stages of modding.

If you cant make it but have any other suggestions or input before the day, your advice is appreciated.

Which shop in Hayward? We've used DNR and Newtech the most. So I'm very familiar with both. DNR can't log boost if you care about that.

I'll try to make it. If I do, I'll bring my data logging equipment.