E92 M3 vs Focus RS

[Sephiroth]

I disagree with every one of your arguments because they are all subjective. 8400rpm in low gears is absolutely doable, drone is relative and you can always put in additional sound deadener, if you maintain it properly you don't need to worry about it costing you $20k and even then you have insurance, it works perfectly for road trips with 4 in the car, etc. If you are passionate about a car these concerns are easily overcome.

That tells me you shouldn't have bought this car in the first place. Even the focus rs might not fit what you are looking for.

[New2Roundel]

I think of the vehicles as very quite different and not really comparable, except perhaps on price. But the cars themselves have very different characters and features. Truth be told I like them both and if I could also own an RS, I would in a second. The M3 is the last of a certain breed of car--along with the C63. The RS, I think, represents the best of current performance technology in a smaller and more affordable package. To me, you buy an RS if you want a scrappy performance car, without the performance-luxury balance associated with more expensive cars.

Prior to picking up my current car, I was anxiously awaiting both the M2 and RS. But once I drove the M3, it was just no contest. It was everything I wanted in a car with very little trade-off. To me, at this point, the only advantage to the RS is the AWD. Not to say that others won't prefer, say, the character of the turbo 4 vs the high revving NA V8---I'm not one of those people, however.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

I don't disagree. But can I play devils advocate? Because that's what I play in my head.

8300 rpm isn't usable on the street. The torque is lower than the focus rs. Revving there is fun but it rarely happens.

It's road trip friendly, yes, but 2 doors and limited space and 18 mpg don't mesh well with 2 kids and road trips.

Exhaust upgrade? = drone that's not longer road trip friendly.

And that one of a kind engine? It is definitely sweet, but 20k to replace it isn't exactly enticing.

And I really don't like driving it in the deep snow we get here, even though it does pretty good. If I slide as get a dent, that's a lot of money.

I guess since I've had the car for 3/36 and I owe what it's worth in trade, I'm kind of treating it like a lease. Do I let it go and get something else or buy it out?

Would you fault me for trading it now and buying a 6mt in a few years vs the dct I have now?

1) I use 8600rpm on the street every time I drive the car.
2) I avg 24mpg when road tripping from FL to TX.
3) I have an aftermarket exhaust and x-pipe....no droning.
4) Used, low mileage engines are going for ~$10k

I can't comment on your last 3 pts b/c a) we rarely get snow, and if we do, I have a 4wd truck and b) the last 2 points are questions you have to answer for yourself.

[OnlySoMany]

I've actually thought about this as well, but I love the m. When it came down to it I don't think I'd be happy

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by OnlySoMany

I've actually thought about this as well, but I love the m. When it came down to it I don't think I'd be happy

I think if mine was a 6MT I would be less willing to get rid of it.

That's why I might do it and buy one in 3 years.

[swartzentruber]

Coming from an M3, not sure why you'd favor a RS over a VW Golf R, unless you are looking to get into drifting, particularly since it's highly unlikely you'll be getting into an RS at anything much less than 5 - 10k over MSRP for a while. Performance wise, the 6MT versions are proving to be pretty close (stock), despite the RS's extra HP; the DSG R is almost certainly going to be faster straight line, probably very close on a track. It is also nice the R gives a choice of manual vs DSG, whereas RS is manual only. With even a stage 1 chip, the R is going to be faster than a stock M3 (mid 3s 0-60, low 12s 1/4) -- you might argue the could do the same with the RS, but there are some fairly common doubts about how well the RS bespoke AWD system is going to hold up to additional power. So far, chipped R's have proven to be pretty reliable, at least at stage 1 levels.

Beyond the drivetrain, the Golf R is better in most subjective ways (looks, interior, electronics), and is quite a bit lighter. About the only area where the RS is would likely be viewed as "better" is that personality-wise, it is almost certainly more raw feeling -- the R is almost so competent it comes across as a little bit boring, at least in anything but the Race mode (if you get DCC). The only other big thing the RS has over the R is magazine hype. In the recent Car & Driver head to head review, the magazine had to pull some real points chicanery to ensure the RS finished a couple points ahead of a 6MT R, and it seems likely given how close the scoring was that a DSG R shoould have beaten it given the substantial better performance of the DSG had they tested one.

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Coming from an M3, not sure why you'd favor a RS over a VW Golf R, unless you are looking to get into drifting, particularly since it's highly unlikely you'll be getting into an RS at anything much less than 5 - 10k over MSRP for a while. Performance wise, the 6MT versions are proving to be pretty close (stock), despite the RS's extra HP; the DSG R is almost certainly going to be faster straight line, probably very close on a track. It is also nice the R gives a choice of manual vs DSG, whereas RS is manual only. With even a stage 1 chip, the R is going to be faster than a stock M3 (mid 3s 0-60, low 12s 1/4) -- you might argue the could do the same with the RS, but there are some fairly common doubts about how well the RS bespoke AWD system is going to hold up to additional power. So far, chipped R's have proven to be pretty reliable, at least at stage 1 levels.

Beyond the drivetrain, the Golf R is better in most subjective ways (looks, interior, electronics), and is quite a bit lighter. About the only area where the RS is would likely be viewed as "better" is that personality-wise, it is almost certainly more raw feeling -- the R is almost so competent it comes across as a little bit boring, at least in anything but the Race mode (if you get DCC). The only other big thing the RS has over the R is magazine hype. In the recent Car & Driver head to head review, the magazine had to pull some real points chicanery to ensure the RS finished a couple points ahead of a 6MT R, and it seems likely given how close the scoring was that a DSG R shoould have beaten it given the substantial better performance of the DSG had they tested one.

Well I want a 6 speed so the "avail in a dsg" means nothing.

And I wouldn't say the R wins on "all subjective measures" like looks. Because the golf r, while great as a car, looks terrible. Boring, etc. my wife thinks it's too ugly to buy.

Also please don't compare a car with a chip to one without. Are they really running mid 3s 0-60 with a tune? Doubtful but I'd like to see this.

The rs is definitely tuneable and mountune is already releasing stuff that's warranty ok even though the car isn't in America yet. The worries about the RDU being power limited are unfounded and also inaccurate. You can tune the RDU just like the engine and they are doing it.

But I'm not buying the car to mod it anyway. I'm not a good enough driver yet.

The golf r is not an option for reasons of looks but also cost of parts will be higher, sync3 is better anyway and it doesn't have a heated steering wheel. My friend has an R and it's fun for sure but I don't want it.

It might ride a little better, but every article states the driving characteristics of the rs is way better. Not just the car and driver one. Turn in, steering feel, fun to drive, over vs under steer. All favor the rs. Top gear mag, auto car, autotrader, etc.

No one will be actually drifting the rs and they won't need to.

It's pretty ignorant of you to claim what price I will have to pay adm on an rs. Certainly that will also play a role but assuming 5-10k is not accurate.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Well I want a 6 speed so the "avail in a dsg" means nothing.

And I wouldn't say the R wins on "all subjective measures" like looks. Because the golf r, while great as a car, looks terrible. Boring, etc. my wife thinks it's too ugly to buy.

Also please don't compare a car with a chip to one without. Are they really running mid 3s 0-60 with a tune? Doubtful but I'd like to see this.

The rs is definitely tuneable and mountune is already releasing stuff that's warranty ok even though the car isn't in America yet. The worries about the RDU being power limited are unfounded and also inaccurate. You can tune the RDU just like the engine and they are doing it.

But I'm not buying the car to mod it anyway. I'm not a good enough driver yet.

The golf r is not an option for reasons of looks but also cost of parts will be higher, sync3 is better anyway and it doesn't have a heated steering wheel. My friend has an R and it's fun for sure but I don't want it.

It might ride a little better, but every article states the driving characteristics of the rs is way better. Not just the car and driver one. Turn in, steering feel, fun to drive, over vs under steer. All favor the rs. Top gear mag, auto car, autotrader, etc.

No one will be actually drifting the rs and they won't need to.

It's pretty ignorant of you to claim what price I will have to pay adm on an rs. Certainly that will also play a role but assuming 5-10k is not accurate.

Agreed..100%

Although I feel the RS is no real replacement for my E92 M3 6MT. We have chatted on focusrs.xrg a few times. My buyout for my E92 is $41K, basically what a Focus RS with the RS2 package comes in at. I love my E92 M3, but if I had a DCT (which I would never own) I would see why you would feel the way you do.

I love the RS, one of the few cars that excite me. Only other thing that excited me is a 991.2S, which I can't afford. So either the M3 or get a RS...keeping the M3.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Well I want a 6 speed so the "avail in a dsg" means nothing.

And I wouldn't say the R wins on "all subjective measures" like looks. Because the golf r, while great as a car, looks terrible. Boring, etc. my wife thinks it's too ugly to buy.

Also please don't compare a car with a chip to one without. Are they really running mid 3s 0-60 with a tune? Doubtful but I'd like to see this.

The rs is definitely tuneable and mountune is already releasing stuff that's warranty ok even though the car isn't in America yet. The worries about the RDU being power limited are unfounded and also inaccurate. You can tune the RDU just like the engine and they are doing it.

But I'm not buying the car to mod it anyway. I'm not a good enough driver yet.

The golf r is not an option for reasons of looks but also cost of parts will be higher, sync3 is better anyway and it doesn't have a heated steering wheel. My friend has an R and it's fun for sure but I don't want it.

It might ride a little better, but every article states the driving characteristics of the rs is way better. Not just the car and driver one. Turn in, steering feel, fun to drive, over vs under steer. All favor the rs. Top gear mag, auto car, autotrader, etc.

No one will be actually drifting the rs and they won't need to.

It's pretty ignorant of you to claim what price I will have to pay adm on an rs. Certainly that will also play a role but assuming 5-10k is not accurate.

YOur comments are a little ... interesting, so since you wanted feedback, lets address point by point.
--"6MT vs DSG": if you are fine with a slower, lesser performing car, good on you for taking that stand. Some people like the choice, however, which the RS doesn't give you, and there have already been a few people to trade in a 6MT R on a DSG one, taking the loss.
--"looks": I think the majority of adults over 30 give the nod to the R, but obviously opinions vary. I saw the RS in person at the Chicago auto show, and it was very boy racer. If you prefer the looks of the RS, though, it's your money. No joke, I believe I've already gotten more complements on my R in 9 months than in 5 years of my M3, although that's partially because many people love the Lapiz blue. Maybe other colors are more boring.
"chipping": comparison was meant to display a car that reliably can be chipped with one that may or may not be reliably chipped. Maybe RS can be reliably upped in HP, but you'd be lying to claim anyone knows that for certain right now. The RS drivetrain is too unknown, the R not so much.
"RS tuneable": it is inaccurate to claim anything about reliable tuneability of the RS. I never said the RS isn't tuneable, but rather stated the fact that doubts have been raised into how well it can be reliably tuned, which is true since Ford created a brand new AWD drive system for the new RS, many sites have claimed doubts about whether good power can be added, and it contains parts that people aren't sure will reliably hold much over 350 HP. It is possible it will take good power, but no one knows.
"cost of parts higher": not sure where you get this from, and while Ford does an admirable job of creating aftermarket parts for their cars, VW aftermarket is almost certainly better (APR, GIAC, Burger, ECS, united motorsports)
"sync3 better": um, pass the good stuff; the MIB2 headunit is VW is probably one of the best systems on the market right now. My interactions with sync are that it sucks royally.
"heated steering wheel": um, sure you don't want a camry?
"driving": already said in pure fun to drive the RS will certainly win. The R is a little sterile/boring. If this is going to be a track car only, get the RS. However, since majority of driving for most is on the street, the R will be better almost certainly in the long term. It has many of the RS's best characteristics is a toned down livable package. Also, the reviews I've seen have stated that the RS understeers worse than the R.
"drifting": the reason I mention this is it's the only major reason why most people think Ford went with their bespoke AWD for the RS. In most other situations, Haldex AWD is better, and in fact understeers less than the Ford RS AWD. Many magazines have already commented on this. Frankly the R understeers far more IMO opinion than I'd like, so if the RS is even worse than the R, I think it would be unlivable for me (I hate understeer).
"ADM": not claiming anything, just stating facts as they exist for most people. If you are Joey Hand or Billy Johnson, yeah, you might get one for MSRP. Many won't in the early days. If you are willing to wait or think you have a great relationship with a dealer, more power to you. Even the Golf R, still has some dealers asking 5 - 10k over, and many dealers trying to get 2 - 3k over, and the car has been out for a while. If you can get the RS for similar money for an R, great, maybe it makes sense for you. Most people won't for 6 - 12 months at least.

[Kung Fu English]

Well let's frame my reply by saying this:

You admit the rs is more fun to drive but the r has more convenience and dd capabilities.

Then you condescend me for wanting a heated steering wheel?

Maybe it's you who want the Camry for how drivable your golf is.

Look I've driven the r. It's nice. Fine. I Don't like how it looks and it doesn't excite me. Fun to drive is number 1 always.

Your under steer claim on reviews is just inaccurate.

The engine in the rs is already been proven to 600 hp. Ford has been making some of the best gearboxes for a long time. The RDU is software limited to power transfer and this can be overcome with a tune and if it needs more power? It will get hot. Then you will get a cooler. It's not "many websites" that have reported a claim that the RDU is at the max power. It was one. Jalopnik. That's the only one from an off the cuff quote from a ford engineer. If you asked a vw engineer I'm sure they would say the r is maxed out from the factory too. To say less would be to admit they didn't get everything out of the car.

And are you really going to tell me replacement parts for a German car are going to be cheaper than for a ford? Really?

[Dave07997S]

Just drove a Focus RS at Southbay Ford in Los Angeles. Nice little cracking car. Its not a replacement for the E92 though. If anyone is interested they want $5k over MSRP for it and it is a base RS with just the Nitrous Blue.

[Sephiroth]

Its decent looking car. I like that blue. How did it sound?

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Its decent looking car. I like that blue. How did it sound?

It sounded pretty darn good. ONe of the best 4 cylinder sounds I have ever heard. Very racy..not an S65 though.

[Amirsm3]

LOL@5k over MSRP. I'm sure it's "rare" in the sense of low production numbers, but come on....

[AaronJ47]

iv owned 3 MK2 Focus Rs and as much as I loved them they don't really come close to the E9X M3, nw i had the option of purchasing the new RS or a E90 M and decided on the M just because out of all the cars iv had its the one thats been the most memorable. Now I'm wondering why I didn't sink another 15k and get the new M3, The RS hasn't crossed my mind again, don't get me wrong Ford are releasing some awesome cars and iv been a ford fan all my life but I think I'm past that boy racer time in my life now, I have 2 kids and all.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by Amirsm3

LOL@5k over MSRP. I'm sure it's "rare" in the sense of low production numbers, but come on....

One here in CT sold in hours at 5k over last week. Didn't get the plastic off of it. Had a bidding war going on with different dealers.

I was looking at this as a possible option. Living in NE means that the M3 is a 2.5 season car (3 at best). This is why I have a 328xic
(which is at end of life).

Also own a '15 STI launch pushing 400whp. EXCELLENT car, huge mod list, cheap to get to 400+ hp and way faster than the E92 M3 =( Just not much of a "professional" vehicle.

Just put a deposit on an E92 M3 comp DCT instead of an RS though. Going to see how much I can limp the 328 when it really gets bad. On stock tires it will plow snow with no problem. Beats the fiance's Outback in the snow easy.

[Madvillain]

focus rs is slower in a straight line by quite a bit. looks worse inside and out. ive never driven one so i cant speak on that but materials ans build qaulity are well ford and for the money that thing costs....mmmm no thanks. also been hearing that literally every single one has engine problem but unlike bmw ford seems to want to fix its mistakes *cough* rodbearings *cough*

[thetastelingers]

Holy Thread Revival Batman!!!!