200TW Tire Recommendations

[Kong Sheng Han]

I'm currently shopping for tires but can't really decide what I want. For now, they will be for both street and track, and they will later become street/wet track once I buy ARC-8s with NT01s for dry track. I've compiled a list of tires that are, or are close to, 200TW (as well as some wild cards). I am kind of on a budget, so I would like to keep cost shipped below $900-ish. I am also cheap, so buying a tire on the cheaper side is ideal, as long as it performs fine. I don't need an extremely sticky and/or cheater tire, just enough to get me sub-2:00 at TWS . Heat cycling is somewhat of a concern though. I don't want grip to fall off excessively if the tires do heat cycle out (for track, grip on street doesn't matter to me). I would have included Federal 595RSRs if they weren't on a nationwide backorder.

Tires I would like to try out are Nankang (180TW, not 120), Nexen, and Kumho. Nexen tire was released recently, so no reviews. Tire Rack tested the Kumho V720s here, and they performed pretty well. These three tires are cheap enough that if they end up sucking after a while, I won't be too disappointed. The other tires.. I keep reading that the Pirelli P Zeros and NT05 (used to be my first choice) suck for track use, so those are out. RS3, RE-11/71, Maxxis VR-1 seem like a good set of secondary options. I'll have to do some research to learn the difference between the two Bridgestone tires. The rest were just thrown in there; PSS is the only valid option, although 300tw.

What do?

[Kong Sheng Han]

RS3s were $754 last week. Shoulda bought them..

Also, if someone wants to counter my claim about the NT05, please do so.

Other things to consider when making a choice are longevity, grease?, overheat mid-session?, chunking?, etc. Things that are specific to tracking.
I am not concerned about NVH/streetability type stuff.

[surlynkid]

RE71R

[DB]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

RE71R

Agree. The RE71R seems to be the best current option. It may be a bit more for a set than you were hoping for, but you could offset that cost by not needing the NT01s. From what I can tell, the RE71Rs are every bit as fast (and likely faster) than the NT01s.

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by DB

Agree. The RE71R seems to be the best current option. It may be a bit more for a set than you were hoping for, but you could offset that cost by not needing the NT01s. From what I can tell, the RE71Rs are every bit as fast (and likely faster) than the NT01s.

Currently reading about the RE71R. They are faster than NT01s in dry conditions. But they also wear really fast, which probably isn't ideal for street use. Being cheater tires that somehow beat NT01s, I like that they have progressive audible feedback at the limit.

I plan to have a set of dedicated track wheels/tires because I can get full use out of the tires, aka the cords, and not have to worry about figuring out how to get back home. Running NT01s right now, I know how much of a PITA that is. I corded one at COTA recently, but luckily I had an extra tire with me. Also, I have a set of NT01s already sitting in the garage right now. Just need wheels to complete.

[M3 Number 86]

Have the ppl mentioning re71 ran them? Might be faster than nt01 but for one lap only. Maybe a few but who runs <10 min sessions?

[DB]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Have the ppl mentioning re71 ran them? Might be faster than nt01 but for one lap only. Maybe a few but who runs <10 min sessions?

This is not the result I have seen. I have not used them, but they will be my next tire (when I run through the sets of NT01s that I already own). I have been with a friend of mine who has both (square 265 RE71Rs and square 275 NT01s) and has run them back to back over multiple events, changing tires between sessions. He is consistently 2 seconds per lap faster on the RE71Rs. And not for one lap...for entire sessions (25-30 min sessions). I was rooting for the NT01s (especially since I own them) but the result is clear to me.

Have the people discounting the RE71Rs (or saying they fall off quick, are good only for one lap, etc) used them back to back with NT01s to provide a direct comparison in the same way I described above?

[dab_of_oppo]

I was beat out by a 135i running RE71's at my last event by 0.4 sec. I'm on PSS. Considering the weight advantage he has, I'm super impressed with the PSS and how they handle heat. I'm spraying them between runs now. My next set will be the RE71's and I'll be at the top of STU. I only got the PSS because I live in Vancouver and it rains here some...

[Vox Populi]

Originally Posted by DB

This is not the result I have seen. I have not used them, but they will be my next tire (when I run through the sets of NT01s that I already own). I have been with a friend of mine who has both (square 265 RE71Rs and square 275 NT01s) and has run them back to back over multiple events, changing tires between sessions. He is consistently 2 seconds per lap faster on the RE71Rs. And not for one lap...for entire sessions (25-30 min sessions). I was rooting for the NT01s (especially since I own them) but the result is clear to me.

Have the people discounting the RE71Rs (or saying they fall off quick, are good only for one lap, etc) used them back to back with NT01s to provide a direct comparison in the same way I described above?

I am the friend mentioned in the post above. Try as I might, I cannot seem to get the Nittos to hustle along as quickly as the 71r.

Overall, here's how I'd describe them...

Turn in: 71r > NT01
+based on feel and feel alone (I have no empirical data to back this up), the Bridgestones feel like they have a stiffer sidewalls. The turn in is far more crisp with the 71r, though once on line, both feel very similar through the first part of the corner. There are a few places at Watkins Glen (where my back-to-back testing has been going on) where these turn-in differences are apparent: entering the lower esses (t2); navigating the bus stop (71r's allow for incredibly accurate car placement without any drama); t10 (being fast here is often about having confidence in the car [read: big balls]. That confidence starts with knowing exactly how the car will feel on turn in.

Mid corner: 71r > NT01
+The only way I can describe this is that the 71r feels just like a street tire does. There is no real drama; you don't need to drive them with the throttle; they just feel incredibly confidence inspiring. By contrast, I've found the NT01s to feel a bit squirmy mid-corner. For a while I thought it might just be pressures being off but I've consulted with a number of people who run them (and like them) and my pressure's were exactly in line with their recommendations.

Corner exit: 71r = NT01
+ As I've stated already, the 71r just feels like a street tire -- just with an enormous amount of grip. They hook up very easily and when they slide, they do so very gently and very predictably and the car is very easy to collect. The NT01s seem to have a very similar amount of overall grip on exit (and you can really HEAR them working). I haven't had them really break away on me - not sure if that's due to the larger tire or not (275 vs 265 Bridgestone).

Some other food for thought...


regarding the posts about the 71rs wearing faster:

comparing 275/18 tires...

RE71r: 8/32 (new)
NT01: 6/32 (new)

Based on feedback that I've heard from just about every single person that's ever used them from new, the NT01s need a few cycles to really start working as you would expect them to. So let's say they don't really come into their own until you've got them to 5/32....

There's no way the 71r wears TWICE as fast as the NT01, so, for the purposes of this thread, we'll call it 'nearly' twice as fast. And since all of the 71r's 8/32 of tire are usable from day one, they have 'nearly' twice as much tire to go through.

Assuming the 71r will hold grip until they're corded as the nT01s do, I see this as a wash.

Time will tell.

I've got 7 days on my 71r's and I'm not even to the wear bars yet. I could not possibly ask more of a tire that grips like this one does.


Ultimate grip:

Using Harry's Lap Timer, I saw a reading of 1.6g entering the esses with the 71r. I pulled 1.4g in a few different spots on the track. I never went above 1.3 on the Nittos. Screen shot below.






In closing, I will continue to bring both sets of tires to the track and continue to try and make the gap between them close up. I, like many here, want the Nittos to be faster for a number of reasons. The biggest issue for me is, where do I go from here? I had planned on using the 71r as a 'drive-to-the-track-or-in-the-rain-on-the-track' tire. I was fully intent on making the NT01 my on [dry] track fast tire. Based on the information I have so far, that would be silly. I'm not going to drive to the track on my fast tires then switch to the slow ones once I'm there

So that means I need to probably go to a slick of some sort if I want more grip over the 71r. I've been considering the R1 or maybe the TD C51 compound, but I'm still not a sure. A part of me hates the idea of buying (real) racing tires for an HPDE... but time will tell. I have a set of 17" wheels coming in August that will need new rubber, so I have some time to make up my mind.


Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. Happy to answer any questions that you have.

[Kong Sheng Han]

Thanks for posting Vox. I've read some of your posts on M3F. Didn't know you were on here. I'm curious to see how many miles/track sessions (sessions bc # of sessions in a "day" can vary) you will get out of them. Would you mind measuring tread depth and/or take photo of wear on your 7 day tires? Looks like these could be run to the cords, according to feedback 3 below.

"Not too bad, the fastest wear was leading up to this tire check. Ended the day at 5/32 for tread on brand new RE71Rs in 205/50/15 on an Acura Integra. Great tire for the track."

I read that they wear faster at the beginning of their life, then slow down. But that claim was made by one guy.


"My RE71R's after a season of Auto-x (averaging one event every 2 weekends) and ~2000 miles of DD. Flipped them around on the rims after ~3/4 of the season.

Still not corded - Still fast. These tires are nuts. Just have to be careful not to get caught in the rain on a way back from an event lol"


"Here are my fronts after 5 HPDEs and 10 autocrosses. Not enough negative camber and too much understeer; the rears wore evenly and the fronts were fine until the last 2 sessions of the last HPDE, but I was going faster and faster as the day went on. I've since increased front camber from -1.5 to -2.5."


If this is the case, I could possibly use a longer lasting 200tw tire with less grip for street wheels, and after I use up the NT01s on track wheels, I can switch to RE71Rs for track only. Because like you said, doesn't make sense to drive to/from track on sticky tires, then switch to tires that offer less grip when I get to the track. A lot of people are reporting that outside edges wear faster than center, so that could cut life short if I don't dial in proper tire pressures and camber quickly.

I think I can get about 50 25 minute sessions out of a a new set of NT01s, which equals about 12.5 days. Or about 7 days, if I do 7/8 sessions that TWS PDS gives you.

[nholmes]

Is cost a concern? Federal RSRs are still the best performance to dollar ratio out there.

If you're looking to take home a trophy, then that's a different story.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by DB

This is not the result I have seen. I have not used them, but they will be my next tire (when I run through the sets of NT01s that I already own). I have been with a friend of mine who has both (square 265 RE71Rs and square 275 NT01s) and has run them back to back over multiple events, changing tires between sessions. He is consistently 2 seconds per lap faster on the RE71Rs. And not for one lap...for entire sessions (25-30 min sessions). I was rooting for the NT01s (especially since I own them) but the result is clear to me.

Have the people discounting the RE71Rs (or saying they fall off quick, are good only for one lap, etc) used them back to back with NT01s to provide a direct comparison in the same way I described above?

I ran them back to back same car. Re71 is FASTER not just by emperical evidence (data) but also by feel. Now all my track buddies run RE71 and the wear is not significantly more or less than say an RA1 or Nitto.

That said, I would never purchause Nitto again. Reason was lasting heat cycle, ability to rotate, run to the cord, decent wear. RE71 does all of that with much grip and better manners on the track.

Lutfy

[M3 Number 86]

Hmm what do the temps get to up there? In ca every single person I've spoke to have said 2-3 laps hot then lose grip. Some of these guys are fast af some are similar to me.

I wanted to make the same purchase as well but went with maxxis rc1 - I like these better than nt01 as well.

[Vox Populi]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Hmm what do the temps get to up there? In ca every single person I've spoke to have said 2-3 laps hot then lose grip. Some of these guys are fast af some are similar to me.

I wanted to make the same purchase as well but went with maxxis rc1 - I like these better than nt01 as well.

Two weeks ago at the Glen ambients were above 90* all weekend. Was 94* going out for last session. I set my fastest lap of that session more than 20 minutes into the session

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

I think I can get about 50 25 minute sessions out of a a new set of NT01s, which equals about 12.5 days. Or about 7 days, if I do 7/8 sessions that TWS PDS gives you.

mine is like 5 days....sometimes less lol

[nholmes]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

mine is like 5 days....sometimes less lol

You also drift more than Ken Block

[admranger]

Originally Posted by nholmes

You also drift more than Ken Block

[nholmes]

Phil loves the attention

[Longboarder]

My car is the complete opposite of yours...very heavy at over 3,700 pounds without me in it. And stock suspension + camber plates. So my experience my not be as helpful but here it goes as I've tried a few tires. I use Michelin PSS on ZCPs for daily driving but for the track I use another set of ZCP wheels.

I started with NT05's. They are terrific dual purpose tires. Very tame and quiet on the street and the wear is good - these tires can last a long time. They hold up to hot temperatures much better than any other "street" tire on the track. They could handle anything I could dish out, even tracking on a 100 degree day. Probably the best dual purpose tire I have ever tried. Love the NT05's.

Now I have RE71R's and after one track day and maybe 500 miles on the street these things are loud. I couldn't stand driving with them anymore so I put my PSS back on. I did like the RE71Rs at the track. One thing I will note is that my times were very consistent from the first hot lap to the last lap 20 minutes later. All my lap times last time at ACS were in the 1:57 - 1:59 range. So I was gridded in the middle of the pack based on my fastest lap time but what happened is that I eventually passed most of the cars as my assumption was they could turn an early quick lap but then their tires would heat up and they would slow down. RE71R's didn't change their composure at all. Very impressive.

I have tried RS3's but hated them. Zero straight line traction (couldn't hook up until 4th gear) but great lateral grip. I have a blower so that might not be an issue for others. R888s are fantastic track tires, particularly wet track tires but they are a little loud for most people on the street. One of my 911's only runs R888's on the street and track and I love these tires so I put up with the loudness for the performance I get from them. Nothing better for straight line traction. Great feedback in the turns. Great rain tire. But again very loud as a street tire.

Hope that helps.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by nholmes

You also drift more than Ken Block

but i rotate and flip!!

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by nholmes

Phil loves the attention

hater.

[nholmes]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

hater.

You've seen my plate, right?