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03-17-2009, 12:33 PM | #1 |
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Vorsteiner CFRP 5-6x Stronger than Alumnium/Steel?
Yesterday I came across Vorsteiner's Web site and saw that their CFRP has a tensile strength of 82.3 ksi, 5.21 times stronger than steel, or 6.28x stronger than aluminium. Is this really true? Does Vorsteiner have any testing data to support their claim?
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03-17-2009, 01:56 PM | #4 |
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Keep in mind material differences vs. part differences. Material strengths are lb / square inch. So an apples to apples coupon material test of CF vs. aluminum will have the aluminum part heavier since it is more dense. On a per area basis really good CF can be over 10 times as strong as aluminum. Is a CF automotive aero part 10 times as strong as the same part would be in aluminum? No. Also keep in mind stiffness, not the same as strength. Typical high quality CF is about 3 times stiffer than aluminum. But again an actual part will not be 3 times as stiff. As you mentioned the amount of fiberglass vs. amount of CF makes a huge difference as well. Composites, both CF and CF mixed with other composites such as fiberglass can have a HUGE range of strength and stiffness.
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03-17-2009, 02:03 PM | #5 | |
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03-17-2009, 07:51 PM | #6 |
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I do like to add details as well as give answers. However, I guess it can't be summed up simply as you state because my answer is actually "yes". At least very likely yes.
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03-18-2009, 11:31 AM | #7 |
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Great explanation Swamp2. Which leads to the next two questions:
1) Why does it even matter what the material stiffness is for an aero part? ( I can't imagine any benefit to having it stiffer than aluminum or steel?) 2)Why does tensile strength matter for an aero part? Although these statistics showing them stronger and stiffer than aluminum and steel look impressive. They serve absolutely no benefit as I see it. Now if you were comparing weight of making an aero piece of 100% CF vs. other materials then I could see advantages.
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03-18-2009, 12:22 PM | #8 | |
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Drives: Vorsteiner E60 M5
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Location: 1460 White Oaks Rd. Suite F. Campbell, CA 95008
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It matters if you, like me, scrape your lip a lot, slam your bootlid a lot, etc etc. I had a Fiberglass trunk on my E46 and after a while the shocks started to crack the bootlid at the hinges... sucked. I also had a lip that was wet carbon fiber overlaid on wet lay low grade fiberglass, and i bumped it once - it cracked completely, all the way down. On the other hand, I hit a parking stopper with my Vorsteiner lip once... (ok, I hit a couple things... lay off me, ok?) and only the resin on the outside cracked. Over the summer I will have it sanded down and resprayed - the carbon fiber is still perfectly intact! Basically, strength is important for a lot of things, but the main reason it's up there is to show "hey, our parts are a fraction of the weight of OEM, but don't worry, because they are just as strong and won't break easily during regular use!" Also, Vorsteiner does not profess to use 100% carbon fiber in any of their parts (see above where they call it CFRP!), although some of them do use 100% CF. They use a proprietary method whereby S-Glass is used in the pre-preg process (much stronger than fiberglass). This makes their parts stronger, while only compromising a 5-10% increase in weight over 100% CF parts such as Ericsson. This is similar to what AC Schnitzer, Techart, Novitec Rosso, and many others do - though some companies (Hamann, AC Schnitzer, and others) will just use Fiberglass on some of their parts. Point is, like you said, you just need weight savings and strength that is equal to or greater than OEM so that the parts can withstand daily use and abuse. If you are concerned about weight, or just want to know your parts are 100% carbon, Vorsteiner offers a Race Program whereby they will substitute any S-Glass for Carbon Fiber - but you can expect prices in the Ericsson range, ala $3,500 for a front lip, $10,000 for a front bumper, etc. We sell a Sportec bootlid for the 997 GT2 that is $28,500 - to give you an idea. Does this answer your questions? Last edited by SV Concepts; 03-18-2009 at 12:54 PM.. |
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03-18-2009, 12:29 PM | #9 |
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Also, one other thing to make you go "ohhh.. duhh!" - Vorsteiner's supplier for a lot of their carbon-related consumables supplies Boeing. You know, those people who make the Jets you can't sleep on?
If it weren't stronger than most metal alloys (and lighter), why would Boeing use it? Furthermore, why would Lamborghini, McLaren, Bugatti... You get the idea Carbon fiber is amazing stuff! |
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03-18-2009, 01:33 PM | #10 | |
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03-18-2009, 03:48 PM | #11 | |
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And after I stuck up for you being a good vendor on the last Vorsteiner thread. Sorry I missed the "ohhh...duhh" point about driving my front lip into stuff. Didn't cross my mind that I need to buy a part I can run into curbs with. I just figured when I bought my Vorsteiner lip that I would be careful and leave an extra couple of inches between me and the curb. I got the idea a long time ago when I chose to go with an authentic Vorsteiner part and defend them in numerous threads on the forum.
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03-18-2009, 04:30 PM | #12 | |
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I'd like to clarify your statement regarding AC Schnitzer and Techart parts. All of Techart's carbon parts are real prepreg dry carbon fiber parts, and not wet laid on any fiber glass, resin, plastic, or anything. Same goes for all AC Schnitzer's E9X M3 parts. Thanks |
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03-18-2009, 08:07 PM | #13 | ||
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03-18-2009, 09:00 PM | #14 | |||
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03-18-2009, 09:13 PM | #15 | |
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And what is the "tensile strength of a part"? The total force it takes to pull something apart? That doesn't involve weight either... Please describe the definition and process of determining such a property (if it actually exists). Finally, if you look at my OP: on Vorsteiner's site it says "material strength, specific tensile strength" in ksi (kilo-poundforce per square inch), or "tensile strength of the material" as you put it. |
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03-18-2009, 09:51 PM | #16 |
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rldzhao, to answer you original question, from memory, tensile strength of steels are in the 400-1000 MPa range, and CF materials are in the 2000-5000 MPa range, so Vorstenier claim about their CF materials being 5x stronger than steel in material properties is possible. I wish they stopped focusing on trunk lids and came up with low cost CF external door panels as those things weigh a lot; the Ericsonn stuff is way to expensive. Did you ever go for the Braille battery by the way? I read that people have been using them with their Z06s without problems. I am thinking about going for it...
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03-18-2009, 10:36 PM | #17 | |
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This rest of the reply is in your weight savings thread. |
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03-19-2009, 02:59 AM | #18 | |
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03-19-2009, 06:21 AM | #19 | |
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