End of an Era -- next gen M3 will be turbo'd

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

I think you misunderstood my original statement about Lancia, their rally cars and the technology. My point was that Lancia were a very well regarded engineering company who seen promise in the dual charging technology. They used supercharging in the Lancia 037 and replaced this with the technology above in the Delta S4 which I might add won the title in 1986 but due to scrutineering irregularities in the San Remo Rally it lost those points and the title was handed to Markku Alen in the Peugeot.

P.S.

I was there during one of the deaths in question so I know very well why they were banned.



Sequential turbocharging is used in the 335d not the 335i which is twin turboed (each turbo used together at the same time, 1 turbo per 3 cylinders as in the 335i). But if I am wrong than I will admit it, maybe south can tell if I am correct or not.

Hopefully this pissing contest can be concluded and the discussion of possible M3 engines can get back on track.

I thought we were having fun?

Regardless, maybe we should wait until the E92 M3 finishes its production run before we start second guessing whatever motor BMW has not even announced? I'm sure they will make something special, turbo, supercharged, or whatever.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

Sequential turbocharging is used in the 335d not the 335i which is twin turboed (each turbo used together at the same time, 1 turbo per 3 cylinders as in the 335i). But if I am wrong than I will admit it, maybe south can tell if I am correct or not.

Hopefully this pissing contest can be concluded and the discussion of possible M3 engines can get back on track.

Nothing to admit, that's completely correct.


Best regards, south

[Gearhead999s]

The handwriting has been on the wall for quite a while for BMW on the direction that M engines must go.I am not a fan of unnaturally aspirated cars as you loose so much of the finite throttle control that is required in lower grip situations while being driven at the limit.So far a normally aspirated engine can provide that control at the limit.The 335 that is in our household is a very good example of a properly set up turbo engine but the the throttle control is sorely lacking on boost to properly control the wheelspin in lower traction situations.I think my present M will be staying around for a while if this is the Direction that BMW is going to.

[normcaldwell]

Originally Posted by oneginee

-Fuel economy. Here is where a lot of people go wrong. Lower only when cruising because smaller engine volume but when driving hard consumption is about the same as NA engine of same bhp. Therefore a weak argument for an M car which should be driven hard.

Regarding fuel economy, I agree with this poster's assessment.
When you have the power, you tend to use it.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by normcaldwell

Regarding fuel economy, I agree with this poster's assessment.
When you have the power, you tend to use it.

Well, EU regulation and possible emission penalties are only based on the standard consumption, where the lower displacement makes all the difference.


Best regards, south

[normcaldwell]

Originally Posted by southlight

Well, EU regulation and possible emission penalties are only based on the standard consumption, where the lower displacement makes all the difference.


Best regards, south

Agreed. However, I'm amused by a number of 335i folk's observations that their fuel consumption is more than anticipated! They know, and we all know, why.

[Voltigeur]

-

Having lived in N America, Europe and the Pac region I do believe that gasoline is underpriced in the U.S. But we are well and truly hooked on low-priced fuel

Hence a lack of decent public transport where I live: I would be fine w/ riding on a train to work and keeping the sports car for the purpose for which it was designed: tracks, not stoplights' drag races.

Living in the US it's a guilty pleasure that running a hi-po V8 is not absurdly expensive. But thinking ahead it is also a technology that has had its day in the sun. We have been here before: why are late 60s / early 70s muscle cars such classics and highly collectible? That was a heyday.

The current plethora of hi-po, low gas mileage, cars from Germany (AMG!), Italia, UK and the US exemplifies an echo period of the muscle car era.

Just enjoy the present.

And from what I have read some electrically-engined sports cars (e.g., Tesla) have instantaneous and substantial acceleration. I expect BMW will use FI to provide some serious urge to maintain the 'Ring track times.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by southlight

Even if the next M3's engine is based on the N54 engine it doesn't mean it's just that engine with more boost. I'm sure there's some serious development going on to make an engine out of the existing one that's worth "wearing" the M badge. Compared to the S65 the N54 in its current version has two big disadvantages: Throttle response and redline. As far as the latter is concerned we might not see 8400rpm redline in such an engine, but I'm sure it might be in the ballpark of 8000. That was sufficient for the last M3, so it should be good enough for the next one. The other concern, throttle response, is something KERS will address. While the turbos need some time to spool up, the electric motor of KERS will address instant response. So technically it's possible to build an turbo engine that drives and behaves like an NA engine in almost every way and considering M philosophy and some recent statements that's most likely the way ///M division is heading. Hope this doesn't turn out be wishful thinking eventually.

Sounds good south. I like your wishful think because you tend to have ways of making those wishes become reality.

I realized a mistake I made in an earlier post, BTW. I implied that the N54 and N64 have Valvetronic when in fact the HPI motors don't use Valvetronic. Forgot about that. So there's no need to worry about higher RPM for that reason, although there are probably plenty of other engineering issues to solve before the RPM can be increased to 8k or more. I'm sure BMW is working on it, but I doubt we'll see it in the X5/X6 M. Maybe M5. So we'll talk more about when more details start leaking out about the F1x M5/M6, and eventually the F3x M3. I just hope some derivitive of the S65 remains in the lineup somehow, somewhere. It's just such a great engine and it would be a shame to see it gone for good.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

-

Having lived in N America, Europe and the Pac region I do believe that gasoline is underpriced in the U.S. But we are well and truly hooked on low-priced fuel

Hence a lack of decent public transport where I live: I would be fine w/ riding on a train to work and keeping the sports car for the purpose for which it was designed: tracks, not stoplights' drag races.

That's the thing - without quality public transit we need low price fuel or we become immobilized, essentially. I'm guessing that most of us who are fortunate enough to own E9x M3s can handle gas in the $5 to $10 per gallon range without experiencing a true hardship, but we're the minority. There are so many NIMBYs who have shunned and fought against plans to extend public transit into the suburbs for so long, and now we're suffering for it. In fact public transit is a joke in quite a few major US cities. In Los Angeles, a city that would hugely benefit from a good light rail system, every attempt to expand it gets knocked down. Same goes for Miami, Atlanta, and elsewhere. As many problems as Washington DC has, their metro rail is very well done.

[HEY32G]

I admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I will chime in here. I really don't see the problem with a turbo engine. I happen to prefer turbos over na cars. I've had a twin turbo RX7, a 911 Turbo, and now my 335i, and love the feel of turbos kicking in. If I had the choice I would always take a turbo car over a na car. You have to learn how to compensate for the lag, which is one of the things that make it fun to drive.

Also, I am not saying that a 335 is better than an M3. I don't feel that way at all. In fact, my plan is to trade the 335 for an M3 as soon as my lease is up. I'm just saying that turbos can be a lot of fun, and as we all know, they're extremely easy to tune. Turbos just make it feel like the engine can breathe.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and I respect the love for the na M3, but I say bring on the M3 turbo. I, for one, am excited to hear that news!!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by normcaldwell

Agreed. However, I'm amused by a number of 335i folk's observations that their fuel consumption is more than anticipated! They know, and we all know, why.

My dealer tells me that is the largest complaint from the N54 clients.Thats pretty funny as we have been thrilled by the fuel milege with our 335 which is about 11.0l/100 kms in our normal usage and we have got a high as 7.5l/100 on our last trip to Tennessee.My M3 by comparision would be about 30-35% worse under the same conditions.The 335 by comparision is just another car where the M3 is an enthusiasts delight.

[footie]

Unlike South I don't believe 8000rpm will be met by a FI engine of 3L capacity. FI usually means lower rev limits which centre around the 6.5~7K mark, maybe with rejigging the compression this might improve a little by I would be surprised to see it pass the 7.5, with 7.7K as the very upper limits of possibility.

Gearhead talked about throttle balance being a problem with turbo engines. I think this is not the lag which is the problem but the unnaturally high levels of torque that FI engines have compared to N/A engines, though this is more of a problem with turbos than superchargers. Think of it as driving your M3 with and without SportPlus engaged, the higher the revs the less the problem.

Try driving one of those old Group B rallycars, then you will understand what lag really is.

[Sticky]

I guess while we are at it maybe we can get BMW to consider a rotary engine?

[ik999]

next stop -> AWD!!!

[ik999]

Originally Posted by footie

Unlike South I don't believe 8000rpm will be met by a FI engine of 3L capacity. FI usually means lower rev limits which centre around the 6.5~7K mark, maybe with rejigging the compression this might improve a little by I would be surprised to see it pass the 7.5, with 7.7K as the very upper limits of possibility.

Gearhead talked about throttle balance being a problem with turbo engines. I think this is not the lag which is the problem but the unnaturally high levels of torque that FI engines have compared to N/A engines, though this is more of a problem with turbos than superchargers. Think of it as driving your M3 with and without SportPlus engaged, the higher the revs the less the problem.

Try driving one of those old Group B rallycars, then you will understand what lag really is.

RB26DETT - 8000RPM in the GTR34!!!!! 2.6L!!!! no lag!!!

[White08M3]

Originally Posted by FifthStreetz

I wonder if our cars will go up in value...

but its sad to see "M" trucks, i wish BMW would stick to their heritage and not be conformists.

i was thinking this would increase the demand for used e92s...that would be good.

[Sedan_Clan]

Wow....some of you guys really are resistant to change eh?

[enigma]

Compare the throttle response of the E46 M3 to the 335. The E46 wins hands down.

Its simple PHYSICS. Turbos have to spin up and down to reach the proper speeds to compress air. This takes time and the result is a delay from throttle input to actually result. Its inherit to all turbos, all you can do is minimize it. I guess you could burn extra fuel to keep it spinning when not under power but that kind of offsets the "fuel economy" aspect.

By the way this has zip, zero, nada to do with I6 vs V8. My old I6 and my other I4 car are just as responsive as my V8 M3. They don't have the same power, but what they have they give without delay or hesitation. No production turbo car can do that.

Originally Posted by addy85

I don't know what lag is?

First off a Z06 is not a bmw.

Second, if bmw uses same small turbos similar to the ones used in the 335 the lag will be minimal if any.

Third, the throttle response of a 335 is not nearly as good as a m3 correct? Well of course its not, your comparing a Inline 6 to a V8. I would expect the V8 to respond quicker wouldn't you?

Lastly, your assuming that the new M, if turned to forced induction, is going to have lag without even knowing any of the specs of the motor or parts that are going to be used. BMW did an excellent job minimizing the lag in the 335 and I doubt thats not going to be one of their main concerns on the new M.

Oh btw

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by ik999

RB26DETT - 8000RPM in the GTR34!!!!! 2.6L!!!! no lag!!!

Uh, that car has lag, a lot of it in fact. If you ever take a look at some of them with turbo upgrades, they don't spool until 4000+

[enigma]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Uh, that car has lag, a lot of it in fact. If you ever take a look at some of them with turbo upgrades, they don't spool until 4000+

Powerband is not the same as lag.

If your turbo doesn't spool until 4k you are going to have problems with both.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by enigma

Powerband is not the same as lag.

If your turbo doesn't spool until 4k you are going to have problems with both.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, that motor is known for lag. Low displacement, high redline, recipe for lag.

If your turbo spools at 4k, chances are its pretty big, and is going to make some pretty big power.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by Sticky

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make, that motor is known for lag. Low displacement, high redline, recipe for lag.

If your turbo spools at 4k, chances are its pretty big, and is going to make some pretty big power.

I'm just tired of people talking about what RPM a turbo spools at as if that is the same thing as lag. Its not. The little 1.8l I4 I have doesn't make any real power until 6200. Does it have lag, nope. It has a narrow powerband.

Lag is the delay from when you press the accelerator to when the engine reaches is peak power FOR THE CURRENT RPM. Turbo cars suffer from much more of a delay than NA cars since when going from low to high power the turbine has to accelerate to working speed in addition to all the other things a NA or supercharged car might need to do.

Far too many people here and elsewhere confuse the 335s very wide powerband with an absence of lag.

The flip side is I have seen the lag present in cars like the 335 make drivers think they are better than they are as the gradual build of power from when you hit the gas in effects filters their harsh throttle inputs and gives the effect of rolling on the gas gently.