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      05-04-2018, 10:39 AM   #1
yarosus
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E92 M3 vs S5 (B8.5) vs Z4 sDrive3.5i(is)

Hey guys,
I know it's m3 forum, but after lurking this forum for 5-6 years I see a lot of people own S5, Z4, M3. And here it goes:

I currently own 2006 BMW Z4 3.0si Roadster and bought it from this forum member 5 years ago in LA and drove it back to Seattle.

Anyway. I love my current car, but after 5 years I want something different.
I am looking to get something below $30k, but i can be flexible.

I was looking to get E92 M3 for quite a while, but I love the roadster feel and I think I will be missing it.
Also, I always liked the look of Audi A5/S5 (B8), but never consider it until I drove one.

I drove all 3 cars multiple times already and love all 3. There are pros and cons of each and this why I can't choose. Ah... If could get all 3 I would...

Mainly car will be a daily driver and occasionally I will take it to autocross/track just for fun and not to compete.

After driving all 3 cars back to back here are my thoughts:
  • Engine:
    - M3: V8 is amazing engine with high rpm power band. It's fast and powerful but doesn't feel fast because of no low torque. If I will get M3 I won't tune it and I think and will keep it stock. Supercharger cost $$$.
    - S5: I was really surprised with the sound the engine makes! Downshift, upshift, acceleration... So addicted to the sound of the supercharger. It really reminds me Maserati Ghibli engine sound. Well. Both V6 Superchargers. If I will get it then I will add APR stage 2 tune.
    Oh and torque. I love it.
    - Z4: I drove 3.5i and 3.5is. And will add Dinan stage 2 as well. Didn't like the engine sound, but loved the torque. It felt faster than other 2 cars. I guess because of the weight ration and low torque. Amazing GT and for city driving.

    - Winner: Audi S5 (B8.5) just because of the sound. + tune will make it faster.
  • Transmission:
    I won't get manual... I drove them with manuals and didn't like it. I used to have manual cars, but it's not for me anymore. I really enjoying double clutch transmissions.
    - M3: DCT - quick and amazing. hands down.
    - S5: - S Tronic double clutch feels great, maybe a little slower than DCT, but I wouldn't able to tell..
    - Z4: DCT - I think it's similar to M3, but with different software tune. Not bad as well.

    - Winner: Tight
  • Handling:
    M3: I took the car in curvy roads and wow wow wow. I loved of course. Truly BMW feel.
    S5: Didn't have a chance to drive it like M3, but handling not bad, but it's more bloated/
    Z4: Didn't drive on curvy roads, but here is my thoughts. Really disappointed. Comparing with my current E85 the handling is worst. E89 is more GT car. But the car is way comfortable than my E85.
    Winner: M3 hands down of course.
  • Exterior:
    - M3: Timeless BMW design with angel eye. But it looks like another 3-series. I like Alpine White. Otherwise will wrap it in the future in brushed steel or aluminium.
    - S5: Audi really nailed with the design lines here. Looks like sleeper and looks amazing in white or silver color.
    - Z4: It's roadster and looks way different on the road. Only considering M-package which comes with sport m bumper. I would get alpine white and will wrap it in the brushed steel or aluminium as well.

    - Winner: All of this cars have great exteriors. Slightly prefers Z4 looks.
  • Interior:
    - M3: E9x interior feels old... Better quality then new F* M3/M4, but feels kinda old comparing to S5. Legroom is bigger than Audi. but hey! back seats for my dog only.
    - S5: Interior quality is amazing and comfortable and we spend driving inside the car.
    - Z4: I am looking at red interior and it's ok. I think the lowest of this three cars.

    - Winner: S5.
  • Maintenance:
    I am not familiar with maintance too much, just from forum readings.
    - M3: Rod Bearings need to be done. More often oil change probably. Overall more expensive to mantain since it's M car.
    - S5: From forum readings i didn't find any issues. And the car still only 5 years old.
    - Z4: Famous turbos can go bad? Otherwise should be fine.

    - Winner: I guess S5 should be a winner in this category?
  • Depreciation:
    Yeap... Depreciation. I hate this word, but I just spend $18k over 2 years of ownership of my Infiniti FX50S even I thought it won't depreciate. In meanwhile Z4 value dropped only $1.5k per year over 5 years.
    I won't put a lot of miles. I think max 6k per year. maybe even only 4k per year.
    - M3: It will lose the value of course, but i think around $1.5k-$2k per year and after 5 years willl either stay the same or go up.
    - S5: Will lose $2k per year till it reaches the bottom of the bottom.
    - Z4: The same as Audi will lose value around $2k per year i think.

    - Winner: M3.
  • My conclusion:
    - M3: M3 is amazing handling car, a lot of fun, but looks like another 3-series on the road.
    - S5: The engine sound and interior quality is where i got sold. + throw APR stage 2 and will be fast or even faster than m3.
    I don't know about handling and if it can be improved.
    - Z4: I love how Z4 roadster feels and for daily driving is fine for me, but interior quality is the lowest from 3 above. And handling isn't great as M3.

    - Winner: i like all 3 :/

My budget is $30k
Here is what I narrowed down to:
- M3: 2009 BMW M3. 40k miles, all options, carbon fiberroof, interior. 2 owners. - $29k + i think i should get warranty.
- S5: 2013, 19k miles, Prestige, silver 3 owners - $33k or white one with 35k miles.
- Z4: 2012, 35k miles, white with red interior, m-package. fully loaded except iDrive. $25k only, but i think I can get lower to $23k.

Other cars I considered:
435i - didn't like it at all. Felt too boring.
2013+ Boxster - out of the budget. Didn't drive it.
F-Type - out of the budget. Didn't drive it.
M235i - didn't drive it, but will always will look at m2 then... Can get below $30k with around 30k miles car.

I drove all m cars at mtrack days and from all cars that I drove M2 was hands down my favourite, but it's out of my budget...

What is your thoughts?
Below pictures of the exact cars. Except Z4 is just for reference, I will wrap the roof in black and it comes with the same wheels.
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Last edited by yarosus; 05-04-2018 at 11:32 AM..
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      05-04-2018, 11:04 AM   #2
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Don't forget to factor in maintenance costs.
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      05-04-2018, 11:33 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhgourami View Post
Don't forget to factor in maintenance costs.
Yes! good one.
Just edited.

From forum readings, I think S5 should be cheaper to maintain.
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      05-04-2018, 11:52 AM   #4
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Sounds like you're trying to talk yourself out of the S5. It's a good car, make the leap and enjoy!
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      05-04-2018, 01:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl007 View Post
Sounds like you're trying to talk yourself out of the S5. It's a good car, make the leap and enjoy!
Maybe I made it sounds like. But honestly I think I would regret after I get either car that I didn't get other one.

You know when you park the car and walking away if you didn't look back to check it out then you get a wrong car.

I am seeing M3 and S5 almost everyday around and taking pictures of them, walking away and look at both of them.

I would buy any of this cars for couple months or a year and then change to get another one to enjoy. But then you need to pay this 10% taxes each time. ahh.
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      05-04-2018, 01:54 PM   #6
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I would say the n54 in the roadster will be (and by a large margin) the most expensive to maintain. That engine is junk, turbo failures, wastegate rattle, injector failures, never ending oil leaks, spark plug replacements every 20k, hpfp failures.. the list goes on.

I've owned two n54 cars and yeah tuned they "feel" faster than the m3 but only because of the rush of torque down low.
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      05-04-2018, 02:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
I would say the n54 in the roadster will be (and by a large margin) the most expensive to maintain. That engine is junk, turbo failures, wastegate rattle, injector failures, never ending oil leaks, spark plug replacements every 20k, hpfp failures.. the list goes on.

I've owned two n54 cars and yeah tuned they "feel" faster than the m3 but only because of the rush of torque down low.
Yes, this what I heard, but thought they fixed in latest years.
What years the cars were that you own with N54?
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      05-04-2018, 02:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarosus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
I would say the n54 in the roadster will be (and by a large margin) the most expensive to maintain. That engine is junk, turbo failures, wastegate rattle, injector failures, never ending oil leaks, spark plug replacements every 20k, hpfp failures.. the list goes on.

I've owned two n54 cars and yeah tuned they "feel" faster than the m3 but only because of the rush of torque down low.
Yes, this what I heard, but thought they fixed in latest years.
What years the cars were that you own with N54?
No not really, I owned an '07 and a '10 and to be totally honest the '10 had far more problems than my '07 did and it had 20k less miles.. both were tuned via Cobb
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      05-05-2018, 07:47 AM   #9
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The N54 in our 08 535xit has been great. We have owned it for 8 of its 10 years and 100k of its 130k miles. I do maintain it.
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      05-05-2018, 08:24 AM   #10
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I don’t doubt that the S5 sounds good, but why are you adamant about keeping the M3 engine and exhaust stock vs going APR stage 2 with the S5? For about $1200, you can do test pipes and the Alpine tune on the S65 which will bump the power by about 10%, and add in some low end torque the car needs for getting around town. If you’re on this forum, you know how good the S65 can sound- my plan is to do test pipes on the stock exhaust, and then assess how much louder I want it, since deleting the primary cats will uncork it quite a bit. The car will already sound better than anything on the road (except for my old V10 M5).

I’m assuming your concerns with tuning the car are related to bearings and putting too much stress on the engine, hence your desire for a warranty. I would skip that, factor roughly $2500 into the purchase price of the car do have the bearings addressed at a reputable shop, and enjoy the car from there. That way you have the peace of mind, and if you ever want to sell the car the bearing job will add value to the sales price of it.

I’ve owned a couple N54s, they aren’t the worst things in the world but they do require quite a bit of maintenance. If you’re a DIY guy it isn’t awful, and the torque they make especially when tuned is really nice for daily driving. That being said, down the road you’ll have plenty more opportunities to buy and drive a TTV6, or a blown V6 for that matter, and having a V8 that revs to the goddamn moon won’t be an option. And if down the road, a blower kit happens to make its way onto your car, then so be it ��.
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      05-05-2018, 08:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I don't doubt that the S5 sounds good, but why are you adamant about keeping the M3 engine and exhaust stock vs going APR stage 2 with the S5? For about $1200, you can do test pipes and the Alpine tune on the S65 which will bump the power by about 10%, and add in some low end torque the car needs for getting around town. If you're on this forum, you know how good the S65 can sound- my plan is to do test pipes on the stock exhaust, and then assess how much louder I want it, since deleting the primary cats will uncork it quite a bit. The car will already sound better than anything on the road (except for my old V10 M5).

I'm assuming your concerns with tuning the car are related to bearings and putting too much stress on the engine, hence your desire for a warranty. I would skip that, factor roughly $2500 into the purchase price of the car do have the bearings addressed at a reputable shop, and enjoy the car from there. That way you have the peace of mind, and if you ever want to sell the car the bearing job will add value to the sales price of it.

I've owned a couple N54s, they aren't the worst things in the world but they do require quite a bit of maintenance. If you're a DIY guy it isn't awful, and the torque they make especially when tuned is really nice for daily driving. That being said, down the road you'll have plenty more opportunities to buy and drive a TTV6, or a blown V6 for that matter, and having a V8 that revs to the goddamn moon won't be an option. And if down the road, a blower kit happens to make its way onto your car, then so be it ��.
Or go with a used X-Pipe from a forum member and there are several for sale right now. Add stage 2 tune and you might be at $1,500 max to add roughly 40hp 20tq and it will sound every bit as good if not better than the S5. I drove the S5 back to back with an E92 also and I found the M3 to be a superior driving experience. But I don't think you can go wrong on any of your choices. We would love to have you on board the community if you select an M3.
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      05-07-2018, 10:13 PM   #12
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Not a bad write up, but I agree with others that you are closet leaning towards the Audi....

When you say the M looks like any 3 series (which I disagree with), the S5 looks like any A5 just the same. My experience with Audi is that only the RS models stand out and are the truer competition with an M, in this case the M3. At this rate you could look at a 335IS or something... The V8 S5 sounds much better than the supercharged one (I had a B7 S4 V8 straight piped, amazing) but the supercharged one will respond to mods better.

Out of all those other cars, you are getting a lot more car in the M for the money than you would the others IMO.

But as a daily, the roadster is the cheapest and looks great with the M bumper.
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      05-08-2018, 08:19 AM   #13
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I had a B8.5 S4 S-Tronic (DSG) for a few years prior to my M3 Sedan. Here's my notes:

S4 (S5)
(+) Great in the winter.
Nice torque for daily driving.
Comfortable cabin and nice sound system (B/O).
Fun handling on road set in dynamic (only if it has Sport Differential).

(-) Fake engine noise (it's called a soundaktor) which can only be heard in the cabin. Outside it doesn't have much presence - get an exhaust mod / intake for the M3, and it's worlds better.
It's a pig on a track - tons of understeer, until you floor it (sport diff kicks in), and you will overcook the brakes after a few laps due to it's heavy weight and undersized brake system. Driving it for fast times is totally different than a lighter / more balanced car like the M3 - you have to dive in hard with some trail brake to lighten up the rear and load up the front, then you floor it mid turn to force the car to rotate with the rear diff (only with sport diff). be prepared to replace brakes and tires often if you track it.

S5 and M3 dynamics are totally different. I don't miss the S4 at all, unless there's more than 4" of snow on the ground.

If you are sold on the S5, make sure it has a sport differential if you want a hint of rear drive feeling.
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      05-08-2018, 09:26 AM   #14
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I'll pick the undisputed winner albeit not on the list: Z4M coupe.
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      05-09-2018, 12:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcusem3 View Post
No not really, I owned an '07 and a '10 and to be totally honest the '10 had far more problems than my '07 did and it had 20k less miles.. both were tuned via Cobb
BMW puts their N54 engine to Z4 up to 2016.
I did deeper research but I didn't really find any issues in later years.
Probably need to look for 2012+ models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo;
I don’t doubt that the S5 sounds good, but why are you adamant about keeping the M3 engine and exhaust stock vs going APR stage 2 with the S5? For about $1200, you can do test pipes and the Alpine tune on the S65 which will bump the power by about 10%, and add in some low end torque the car needs for getting around town. If you’re on this forum, you know how good the S65 can sound- my plan is to do test pipes on the stock exhaust, and then assess how much louder I want it, since deleting the primary cats will uncork it quite a bit. The car will already sound better than anything on the road (except for my old V10 M5).
Honestly, I didn't think you can get a big performance increase from M3 for couple grand. After you wrote this I did some research about Alpine tune and other ones and sound like good mod for the $$$.

S5 has supercharger sound that I really enjoyed and it reminds me Maserati ghibli engine sound, but more soft and not exotic. And yes, it needs a different exhaust for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOF-M3;
Or go with a used X-Pipe from a forum member and there are several for sale right now. Add stage 2 tune and you might be at $1,500 max to add roughly 40hp 20tq and it will sound every bit as good if not better than the S5. I drove the S5 back to back with an E92 also and I found the M3 to be a superior driving experience. But I don't think you can go wrong on any of your choices. We would love to have you on board the community if you select an M3.
I will need to drive M3 and S5 again back to back around some curvy roads to compare. I mostly drove S5 on the hwy and need to get it around traffic-less curvy roads to make the decision.

So far for me M3 has better handling, dynamic and overall driving feeling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal_el;
Not a bad write up, but I agree with others that you are closet leaning towards the Audi....

When you say the M looks like any 3 series (which I disagree with), the S5 looks like any A5 just the same. My experience with Audi is that only the RS models stand out and are the truer competition with an M, in this case the M3. At this rate you could look at a 335IS or something... The V8 S5 sounds much better than the supercharged one (I had a B7 S4 V8 straight piped, amazing) but the supercharged one will respond to mods better.

Out of all those other cars, you are getting a lot more car in the M for the money than you would the others IMO.

But as a daily, the roadster is the cheapest and looks great with the M bumper.
I agree that S5 looks like A5 and prefer look of RS5 to stand out.
From all 3 i think Z4 with m-package is better looking car.

I also rode in B7 RS4 once.. ah what a brutal sound it was making.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anerbe;
I had a B8.5 S4 S-Tronic (DSG) for a few years prior to my M3 Sedan. Here's my notes:

S4 (S5)
(+) Great in the winter.
Nice torque for daily driving.
Comfortable cabin and nice sound system (B/O).
Fun handling on road set in dynamic (only if it has Sport Differential).

(-) Fake engine noise (it's called a soundaktor) which can only be heard in the cabin. Outside it doesn't have much presence - get an exhaust mod / intake for the M3, and it's worlds better.
It's a pig on a track - tons of understeer, until you floor it (sport diff kicks in), and you will overcook the brakes after a few laps due to it's heavy weight and undersized brake system. Driving it for fast times is totally different than a lighter / more balanced car like the M3 - you have to dive in hard with some trail brake to lighten up the rear and load up the front, then you floor it mid turn to force the car to rotate with the rear diff (only with sport diff). be prepared to replace brakes and tires often if you track it.

S5 and M3 dynamics are totally different. I don't miss the S4 at all, unless there's more than 4" of snow on the ground.

If you are sold on the S5, make sure it has a sport differential if you want a hint of rear drive feeling.
Ha... This maybe this is what i like it: Fake engine noise (it's called a soundaktor)! Interesting.

Thanks for the tip about sport differential! Will check which I one I drove before and will try to test drive s5 with sport differential again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st
I'll pick the undisputed winner albeit not on the list: Z4M coupe.
I considered this as well, but I prefer DCT/DSG transmissions. If it was 2nd car then maybe. Also I want something different from e85 platform.


Anyway..
Today E89 Z4 with amazing price was sold. It was almost 3 months on the dealer lot and finally, after multiple price dropping, someone bought it after sun showed up.
The dealership was about 4 hours away and I was planning to test drive another 35i, S5, and m3 around town before making a decision and go pick it up over the weekend. (if I decided)

My plan is to go drive 3 cars again during next couple weeks. I want to get them around some curvy roads near by dealerships to see how cars perform.
Thinking test drive 2013+ Boxster and F-type just to see how they are, but they are way over the budget.

I like to drive, and waiting everyday to go drive my e85 Z4 somewhere around. And don't want to make decision to buy something new and regret.

So far from all 3 I think I would enjoy driving M3 and still keep my E85 z4.

Last edited by yarosus; 05-09-2018 at 12:46 AM..
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      05-14-2018, 11:39 PM   #16
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I went to test drive red M235i with 8-speed automatic.
Even I don't like red color on the car, but this Melbourne Red metallic looks pretty cool on 2-series.
The car felt right away better quality than 435i that i drove couple weeks ago. Small, nimble car with awesome acceleration. Exhaust sound cool too with some burbles.
What I didn't like it: after experience with M2 and e92 M3 the m235i felt like nothing special.
M235 is still awesome car, but you know when you have this feeling that this car doesn't feel right for you. The car a perfect daily driver for the city.
Pictures of m235i next to my z4 attached below.

Also, I went to auto-cross event with local Seattle group "Avants" and rode in tuned e92 M3 (ECU tune + gintani exhaust and x-pipes i think).
Wow, the car totally different from stock. The low torque is awesome and the car was like a scary beast and felt a lot of power (low rpm torque i guess).
I loved the exhaust since its not loud and too brutal and kinda exotic.
Totally changed my view at M3.

I found E89 Z4 3.5i with Alcantara interior + Nappa leather. Interior full quality is way better than Dakota leather. I wasn't able to test drive it :/

I am still planning to test drive Z4 3.5i and S5 in curvy roads.
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      05-29-2018, 10:37 AM   #17
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I went to drive white Audi S5 B8.5 (exact the same from the picture in the first post) and took it to the same curvy road where I drove e92 M3 before.
And after 5 minutes of driving, I realize that the car isn't for me.

Why?
The car doesn't feel special and sporty comparing to e92 M3. Audi is a great car. Nice sound coming from the supercharged engine, great torque and more luxury interior. But at the end of the drive, I wasn't excited to drive it again like I did when I drove E92 M3.
It's luxury GT car and probably better choice will be for long road trips and going to the mountains.

I went to drive another E89 Z4 to compare, but it was sold a day before.

So far I am thinking to get E92 M3 and keep my Z4 for now, and probably upgrade to newer Z4 later on.

I will keep this post updated.
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      05-29-2018, 01:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarosus View Post
I went to drive white Audi S5 B8.5 (exact the same from the picture in the first post) and took it to the same curvy road where I drove e92 M3 before.
And after 5 minutes of driving, I realize that the car isn't for me.

Why?
The car doesn't feel special and sporty comparing to e92 M3. Audi is a great car. Nice sound coming from the supercharged engine, great torque and more luxury interior. But at the end of the drive, I wasn't excited to drive it again like I did when I drove E92 M3.
It's luxury GT car and probably better choice will be for long road trips and going to the mountains.

I went to drive another E89 Z4 to compare, but it was sold a day before.

So far I am thinking to get E92 M3 and keep my Z4 for now, and probably upgrade to newer Z4 later on.

I will keep this post updated.
Exactly - don't be me and sell the S5 after 1 year... do it properly and get the M3.
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      05-30-2018, 02:03 AM   #19
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Z4 is a great looking car. Probably your best bet, but you’ve already done that.

With all the M2 special editions coming out maybe the original M2 comes down in price if you can wait. It looks good and is fast.

If you want something now I would go with an M3 and open up the sound with exhaust. It will sound fast around town and actually be fast if you push it. It’s deceptively handsome with all the flares and such.

S5 looks great, understated but I don’t think it is as special as the M3. RS5 would be more interesting if you can find one in price.

Wait? M2. Now? M3.
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      05-31-2018, 10:11 PM   #20
yarosus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imserious View Post
Z4 is a great looking car. Probably your best bet, but you’ve already done that.

With all the M2 special editions coming out maybe the original M2 comes down in price if you can wait. It looks good and is fast.

If you want something now I would go with an M3 and open up the sound with exhaust. It will sound fast around town and actually be fast if you push it. It’s deceptively handsome with all the flares and such.

S5 looks great, understated but I don’t think it is as special as the M3. RS5 would be more interesting if you can find one in price.

Wait? M2. Now? M3.
M2 is an amazing car. Can't imagine how M2 competition will be.
Honestly, I don't mind to wait too and depends how M2 will depreciate. But I doubt prices will go down a lot.

And agreed that S5 isn't special as M3. Didn't drive RS5, but my budget is to get something closer to end of depreciation. I assume RS5 will go down to 30k in 2 years.

I am still planning to test drive Z4 3.5i again to see how I like it or not and from here will see what I will get.
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      07-24-2018, 11:30 PM   #21
yarosus
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Update:
After driving multiple Audi's S5 and Z4s I decided to get e92 M3.
I have been looking all over the country even before I started this thread. I looked for clean, low miles with all options and DCT only for good price.
2 days ago clean 1 owner 2008 e92, DCT with only 14.4k miles, silverstone on ext black leather was traded-in at local Audi dealership and they set price for it $29299. I didn't even able to see the car, even didn't see any pics, but got VIN carfax, autocheck.
1 owner clean car and always was mantained at BWM dealership. I called right away and put deposit. Basically bought unseen. The car was in the service for inspection after trade-in and detailing.

Today I picked the car up.
Salesman told me he received tons of calls about the car from around the states.
Sorry guys if you are the one who tried to buy it too.

The most cleanest used car ever seen. 0 scratched, no swirls still has factory plastic on some parts.
Looks like the car came over from time capsule.
I am really pleased with the deal, not fav color, but i started liking it.

Anyway.

Looks like I will be hanging out at m3psot forum for a while now
And I am selling my Z4 if anyone interested.
For people who is looking for right car. keep looking and waiting. patience is the key.

Next step is to do oil analysis at blackstone and go from there.

Also, any recommendations on aftermarket warranty? Any suggestions?
Good pics coming soon.
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Last edited by yarosus; 07-24-2018 at 11:43 PM..
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      07-25-2018, 03:19 PM   #22
MSteve5036
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congrats! Looks great
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