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      11-07-2019, 03:51 PM   #10627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Changing topics but still slightly related... A question for the instructors - how would you feel if a student had the QFP harness only for the driver side?
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Well, I won't get into the car. It's required at PCA and probably BMWCCA (in a longstanding tradition of being the biggest pain in the ass possible) to use the same restraints on both sides.

It also signals that the driver doesn't care much about my safety, which isn't going to go well either
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      11-07-2019, 03:52 PM   #10628
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Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
How does the buckle on the back feel? It looks like it would dig in and become painful or is it mostly flat and uncomfortable?

Maybe getting both wouldn't be a bad idea.
My brother and I debated this point over and over again, but in the end I don't notice it *at all*, so it's a win-win other than the cost
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      11-07-2019, 03:58 PM   #10629
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All clubs I run with (BMW, Porsche and Audi) all require equal restraints for driver and passenger. I also would not get in a car to instruct were I to see that the driver had invested in enhancing his own safety, but not mine.
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      11-07-2019, 04:36 PM   #10630
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It wouldn't bother me. I'd still sit in the passenger seat.
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      11-07-2019, 05:03 PM   #10631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicS5 View Post
All clubs I run with (BMW, Porsche and Audi) all require equal restraints for driver and passenger. I also would not get in a car to instruct were I to see that the driver had invested in enhancing his own safety, but not mine.
The workaround I've seen by some students is that the QFP harness is disconnected during sessions with an instructor and just the standard seat belts used instead. Some things are done differently around here.

But point taken. I've always believed in "equal restraints" for both until I've spent the last few weeks reading opinions from people who say that have "decades in motorsports" and essentially safety marketing material. Now I'm in a gray area where I need some sense knocked back into me.

To summarize on what I've found, a Schroth QFP harness alone provides little benefit over a standard belt in a head on collision and may even be detrimental if it prevents the air bags from working as intended. I haven't found any data showing benefits of that harness in reducing head and neck injuries compared to standard belts in those instances. However, the QFP harness does perform better when the car has rolled over.

The reason we have head and neck restraints is due to the body being restrained too well. Based on that, pairing a HANS device with a harness is a must.

Assuming a QFP harness is installed for both sides, the point about equal restraints for driver and passenger does get a bit ambiguous when the driver has a HANS device. Should the driver provide a HANS device for an instructor if they do not have one? Should the driver remove their HANS device so it's equal restraints? If the instructor doesn't have any type of head and neck restraint device and they shouldn't be using the harness, should the driver remove their restraint device and not use the harness as well so it's equal?

Purely hypothetical and kind of stupid questions, but would be nice to get opinions on this to see what most people believe.
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      11-07-2019, 06:09 PM   #10632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Assuming a QFP harness is installed for both sides, the point about equal restraints for driver and passenger does get a bit ambiguous when the driver has a HANS device. Should the driver provide a HANS device for an instructor if they do not have one? Should the driver remove their HANS device so it's equal restraints? If the instructor doesn't have any type of head and neck restraint device and they shouldn't be using the harness, should the driver remove their restraint device and not use the harness as well so it's equal?

Purely hypothetical and kind of stupid questions, but would be nice to get opinions on this to see what most people believe.

Not stupid or silly questions.

A QFP is always better than a 3 point. It has antisubmarining built in and allows for proper use/deployment of the airbag. This is why it is DOT legal, so you can run around on the street with them.
[note this is NOT the case in general for 4 points]


6 points are completely different than a 4 point QFP. The 6 point has antisubmarine functionality courtesy of the 2 sub belts, not due to special features of the shoulder belts like the QFP.

In PCA you cannot run a 6 point without a race seat + a Hans device. Which is a very smart rule. You will rip your damn head off if you crash with a 6 point and no Hans device.


The QFP is an excellent solution before you take the plunge to fixed back seats and a harness bar/half cage/roll bar.
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      11-07-2019, 06:10 PM   #10633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
The workaround I've seen by some students is that the QFP harness is disconnected during sessions with an instructor and just the standard seat belts used instead. Some things are done differently around here.
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Correct, that is a valid thing to do in order to follow the rule.
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      11-07-2019, 06:24 PM   #10634
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It's all situational to me..

DE1 or 2 student on street tires, sure, I'll hop in that passenger seat.

DE3 student who wants a check ride to move to 4 and he has a harness and I don't.. he's gonna wear his 3pt while I'm in the car.
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      11-08-2019, 01:17 AM   #10635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Changing topics but still slightly related... A question for the instructors - how would you feel if a student had the QFP harness only for the driver side?

In my opinion, the harness is not a safety device if you don't have head and neck restraints. My primary use for the QFP is to hold me in place so I'm not bracing against the steering wheel while cornering. During events with the local BMW CCA and Audi groups, only one instructor out of the 20 or so total had a HANS device. So the chances of having an instructor assigned that can make proper use of the harness are next to nil.

My justification is that I will be moving to the "advanced" group and will primarily solo. I'll also do other events (essentially test sessions for club racers) where I would be solo as well. Having a QFP on the passenger side for only two or three 20 minute sessions per year when an instructor will be sitting there without a head and neck restraint system seems wasteful.

The money saved on the passenger side QFP harness could pay for more than half of a Simpson Hybrid Sport I could have as a spare for an instructor, assuming a compatible fit.
As an instructor, nope. None of our clubs would even pass the car for tech if it's going to have an instructor and the passenger seat isn't equal to the driver.

As far as your comment on moving to the advanced group and will primarily be solo... you're missing out on an important concept. The goal shouldn't be move up to advanced/solo as fast as possible. You should, given the opportunity, get someone to ride in your right seat to give you pointers. I've been instructing for 3 years and am generally considered pretty goddamn quick at our track. And I'm paying for a semi-pro driver next year for a day of coaching to help me improve another little bit. When other instructor friends want to come for a session, I gladly accept and listen to what they have to say.

Just something to keep in mind as you move up the run-groups.
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      11-08-2019, 02:00 AM   #10636
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Yup, unless you're Lewis Hamilton, you can always improve...and even he has coaches, strategists, race engineers, etc. that give him advice.
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      11-08-2019, 10:23 AM   #10637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Not stupid or silly questions.

A QFP is always better than a 3 point. It has antisubmarining built in and allows for proper use/deployment of the airbag. This is why it is DOT legal, so you can run around on the street with them.
[note this is NOT the case in general for 4 points]


6 points are completely different than a 4 point QFP. The 6 point has antisubmarine functionality courtesy of the 2 sub belts, not due to special features of the shoulder belts like the QFP.

In PCA you cannot run a 6 point without a race seat + a Hans device. Which is a very smart rule. You will rip your damn head off if you crash with a 6 point and no Hans device.


The QFP is an excellent solution before you take the plunge to fixed back seats and a harness bar/half cage/roll bar.
Excellent points. I'm a fan of the QFP also and I actually prefer it in a track car that sees street time vs a half cage or harness bar/fixed back seat/harness setup - but I could be a little bit off my rocker on that one.

*Warning - bit of an off tangent rant below*

Besides the extra stability that a QFP gives it also provides an easy way for a driver to get into a neck restraint. IMO anytime you add significant extra weight to your head in the form of a helmet you should have a neck restraint on. Anything you can do to help negate the potential forces can make a lifetime of difference. The basilar skull fracture being the big whammy - but certainly a whole host of other potential issues that a restraint can help prevent. Neck injuries really, really suck & can be instantly life changing (besides potentially deadly). Three fused vertebrae in my neck - something I have to deal with everyday - and I feel very, very fortunate. Could be a lot worse. Sorry for the rant...
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      11-08-2019, 11:11 AM   #10638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Excellent points. I'm a fan of the QFP also and I actually prefer it in a track car that sees street time vs a half cage or harness bar/fixed back seat/harness setup - but I could be a little bit off my rocker on that one.

*Warning - bit of an off tangent rant below*

Besides the extra stability that a QFP gives it also provides an easy way for a driver to get into a neck restraint. IMO anytime you add significant extra weight to your head in the form of a helmet you should have a neck restraint on. Anything you can do to help negate the potential forces can make a lifetime of difference. The basilar skull fracture being the big whammy - but certainly a whole host of other potential issues that a restraint can help prevent. Neck injuries really, really suck & can be instantly life changing (besides potentially deadly). Three fused vertebrae in my neck - something I have to deal with everyday - and I feel very, very fortunate. Could be a lot worse. Sorry for the rant...

I don't run the QFP anymore as I have 6 points, seats and the BK harness bar, however, I strongly believe the QFP has a massive advantage over 3 points not only in terms of controlling the car better as you're not flying around in the car, but especially because it allows for a head restraint.

Your neck was not designed to have a heavy helmet on top of it. The QFP is, for me, step#1 in the safety journey

And that's also why I'll be bitching about the stupid-ass seats in the F8X M cars until I die: because it's stupid to lose that functionality.
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      11-08-2019, 11:31 AM   #10639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_PDX View Post

As far as your comment on moving to the advanced group and will primarily be solo... you're missing out on an important concept. The goal shouldn't be move up to advanced/solo as fast as possible. You should, given the opportunity, get someone to ride in your right seat to give you pointers.
Based on the two events with instructors this year, the first said I need solo seat time to refine a few things and the other said I should move up to the advanced group. While it can be fun passing cars in the ("upper") intermediate group, it can also result in half a lap being wasted after not getting a point-by into a long no-passing area, being stuck behind a vehicle that's over 10 seconds a lap slower, and then you encounter the same thing the next lap. There is little if anything of value that can be learned or practiced during that time.

I've also seen the people in expensive fast cars show up and insist on being signed off to solo and that's not me. I know my limitations, where I need to improve, and what to ask from instructors as far as coaching. At this point, I don't need someone sitting next to provide feedback on the two or three very specific things I'm working on. I just need to practice so the correct way becomes a habit, which I can self-diagnose. If I'm not doing it correctly, I'll ask an instructor help. Once I sufficiently improve, then I'll go back to having instructors help narrow down other areas to focus on and how to accomplish improving on it.
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      11-08-2019, 12:41 PM   #10640
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QFP

Preach it boys. It's really silly to not have a neck restraint when you think about it. Especially when you consider money commonly spent and prioritized on other modifications. It should be the first dollar spent.
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      11-08-2019, 01:30 PM   #10641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Based on the two events with instructors this year, the first said I need solo seat time to refine a few things and the other said I should move up to the advanced group. While it can be fun passing cars in the ("upper") intermediate group, it can also result in half a lap being wasted after not getting a point-by into a long no-passing area, being stuck behind a vehicle that's over 10 seconds a lap slower, and then you encounter the same thing the next lap. There is little if anything of value that can be learned or practiced during that time.

I've also seen the people in expensive fast cars show up and insist on being signed off to solo and that's not me. I know my limitations, where I need to improve, and what to ask from instructors as far as coaching. At this point, I don't need someone sitting next to provide feedback on the two or three very specific things I'm working on. I just need to practice so the correct way becomes a habit, which I can self-diagnose. If I'm not doing it correctly, I'll ask an instructor help. Once I sufficiently improve, then I'll go back to having instructors help narrow down other areas to focus on and how to accomplish improving on it.
I would place a huge amount of value on having a good instructor. On a 5 session day, I like an instructor to hop in for session 2 or 3 once I am warmed up so they can give a few tweaks. There are things you may not notice in the heat of the moment, for example my rear end was skipping ever so slightly and losing traction on the uphill out of T7 at WGI and I hadn't noticed. Instructor recommended softening the rear dampers a couple of clicks which helped me get the power down, my sector time instantly improved.

My favorite instructors have been the ones who get in the car, watch a lap or two before even saying anything then point out a couple of areas to work on (i.e. turn in slightly later here, trail brake further to the apex, use more curb here etc.). Its very easy to go into autopilot and not notice area's for improvement, particularly when you are trying to eeke out those extra few seconds.

I'd love to do a Bondurant racing school or Team Oneill Rally school as I know my progression would be so much quicker, one day!
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      11-08-2019, 02:27 PM   #10642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Preach it boys. It's really silly to not have a neck restraint when you think about it. Especially when you consider money commonly spent and prioritized on other modifications. It should be the first dollar spent.
On the topic of safety, don't run a 6 point harness without a roll bar! I've seen quite a few cars doing this and it makes me cringe. In the event of a roll over, if you have a 6 point harness but no roll bar, you lose the ability to lean your body side to side. This may be the difference between walking away with minimal injuries vs. very serious injuries or worse.

And like Slicer mentioned, don't skimp out on a proper HANS/neck restraint device. If your running 5/6 point already, you might as well invest a few hundred for a good neck restraint system. A little restrictive at first, but you quickly adapt and adds some peace of mind. Actually makes the shoulder straps more comfortable as well.
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      11-08-2019, 05:03 PM   #10643
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If you are driving anything that uses a 3-point with any regularity on the track I strongly recommend using something like the Simpson hybrid that doesnít need a harness to work properly. Not a fan of Hans for anything that doesnít have very close head containment wings. I use a hans in an open cockpit car with a full containment apparatus around the seat, and itís nice that itís so easy to use. But the Simpson is a better mousetrap for most track day people.
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      11-08-2019, 07:43 PM   #10644
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Consider paying for a private instructor for a day. Way more useful than having someone ride shotgun for 20 minutes.
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      11-09-2019, 10:05 AM   #10645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I don't run the QFP anymore as I have 6 points, seats and the BK harness bar, however, I strongly believe the QFP has a massive advantage over 3 points not only in terms of controlling the car better as you're not flying around in the car, but especially because it allows for a head restraint.

Your neck was not designed to have a heavy helmet on top of it. The QFP is, for me, step#1 in the safety journey

And that's also why I'll be bitching about the stupid-ass seats in the F8X M cars until I die: because it's stupid to lose that functionality.
I never understood the seats in F8x M's. Think they look good but never found them very comfortable in my old F80. And with the loss of functionality like you said they just don't make sense in the M's. If anything make them an option but don't force it on those who don't want them. The OG M2 seats I think are really good - except for the cheaper leather that makes my back start sweating when I see them from across the parking lot. Work great with the QFP on the track. Then they went & changed them on the comp - and now it looks like carrying it on in the 2020 CS

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
Preach it boys. It's really silly to not have a neck restraint when you think about it. Especially when you consider money commonly spent and prioritized on other modifications. It should be the first dollar spent.
Yeah especially now with the simpson hybrid being available too. Pretty much every scenario can be covered now. IMO should be factored into the minimum of what is needed to start tracking. First track event really drove that point home for me.
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      11-09-2019, 08:29 PM   #10646
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I have no idea wtf people are talking about when they say they are flopping around in the car. Is it a core strength thing? My racecar is literally a custom fit and yeah the M3 isnít as like-a-glove as it is, but itís not as if I feel at all like Iím going to slide out the seat or even need to brace on track. Iíve heard this since the dawn of time and Iíve never been in a car that had seats bad enough for me to be like ďdamn this is unsafeĒ. And thatís saying something - Iíve competed in an Impala SS with a bench seat before

Last edited by Richbot; 11-09-2019 at 08:36 PM..
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      11-09-2019, 08:42 PM   #10647
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In some sense I agree. But where the QFP solved my "flopping" was under heavy braking. I started to cramp my palms later in the day because I was using my hand's grip and almost locking/retracting my shoulders/back to brace myself constantly.
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      11-09-2019, 11:17 PM   #10648
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Quote:
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In some sense I agree. But where the QFP solved my "flopping" was under heavy braking. I started to cramp my palms later in the day because I was using my hand's grip and almost locking/retracting my shoulders/back to brace myself constantly.
This is pretty much my need for a harness. The drawback of left foot braking in a DCT equipped car is the tiny pedal which forces my feet to be squeezed together. It would also be nice to have somewhere to anchor my left foot's heel.

Cornering is easier as you can use the dead pedal to brace and you're not really subject to as great of forces as braking.

QFPs for both sides are on their way. Now I need to keep my eye out for deals on a Simpson Hybrid Sport and maybe picking up a HANS III as a backup.
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