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      11-04-2019, 05:05 PM   #1
Sp00nFedFilms
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F80 or E90...

So I figured posting this here would be the most ideal since the E90 was my first choice.

I'm new here and signed up simply just to start my obsession for a new car. An E90. LCI with all options. AW on FR. After a few weeks of searching, I came to this conclusion about my possible future ownership.

- I'll have to replace the rod bearings.
- I'll have to replace the TA at some point.

So then I got to thinking. What if the previous owner wasn't as obsessed as me? What if he daily drove the car and just started it up and went. Not a care in the world. That type of care tends to relay to all aspects of the ownership responsibilities. That's when I thought, we'll maybe I should just spend $10-15K more and just get the F80, not having to worry about as much reliability with the car.

I'm actually more into the styling of the F80 tbh. I just like the nostalgia and NA factor of the E90. But in the same breath would rather give that up for the tech inside the F80 body.

Other than the crank hub issue with the F80, is there other known issues to worry about? I will be leaving the vehicle COMPLETELY stock.

Convince me either way. I see a TON of lease transfer offers on F80's and wondered why. Even some giving up their F80 to hunt for an E92.
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      11-04-2019, 05:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00nFedFilms View Post
So I figured posting this here would be the most ideal since the E90 was my first choice.

I'm new here and signed up simply just to start my obsession for a new car. An E90. LCI with all options. AW on FR. After a few weeks of searching, I came to this conclusion about my possible future ownership.

- I'll have to replace the rod bearings.
- I'll have to replace the TA at some point.

So then I got to thinking. What if the previous owner wasn't as obsessed as me? What if he daily drove the car and just started it up and went. Not a care in the world. That type of care tends to relay to all aspects of the ownership responsibilities. That's when I thought, we'll maybe I should just spend $10-15K more and just get the F80, not having to worry about as much reliability with the car.

I'm actually more into the styling of the F80 tbh. I just like the nostalgia and NA factor of the E90. But in the same breath would rather give that up for the tech inside the F80 body.

Other than the crank hub issue with the F80, is there other known issues to worry about? I will be leaving the vehicle COMPLETELY stock.

Convince me either way. I see a TON of lease transfer offers on F80's and wondered why. Even some giving up their F80 to hunt for an E92.
From your post, it definitely feels like your mind is pushing you towards the F80. You do you man.

if you are worried about how previous owners treated the car, buy one from a fellow enthusiast; someone on here if you can.

The only 3 things that worried me about my M3 when I bought it was the condition of the DCT, valve cover gaskets and the rod bearings. TAs don't worry me much (even though I purchased an extra set just in case it happens).

The newest tech has never been a concern for me as well. I don't even use half the gadgets or components inside the car when I drive.

If I had the funds and the wanting to move on to another M car from an E92, it would either be an M2 or E46 M3. The F80 M3/M4 invokes no emotion from me for some reason.
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      11-04-2019, 06:19 PM   #3
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Iíd go for the F80M3. Newer, more modern, faster, handles better. A stock E90M3 is a bit dull in terms of speed; you have to add the bolt on mods to wake them up. The engine is special and sounds great, but I actually prefer turbo power to a low torque high revving motor for daily driving.
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      11-04-2019, 06:21 PM   #4
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I would be more worried about the reliability of the F80 than the E90.. The E9x is pretty bulletproof compared to these turbo Ms, if maintained well and RBs are replaced with BE bearings.
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      11-04-2019, 06:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00nFedFilms View Post
So I figured posting this here would be the most ideal since the E90 was my first choice.

I'm new here and signed up simply just to start my obsession for a new car. An E90. LCI with all options. AW on FR. After a few weeks of searching, I came to this conclusion about my possible future ownership.

- I'll have to replace the rod bearings.
- I'll have to replace the TA at some point.

So then I got to thinking. What if the previous owner wasn't as obsessed as me? What if he daily drove the car and just started it up and went. Not a care in the world. That type of care tends to relay to all aspects of the ownership responsibilities. That's when I thought, we'll maybe I should just spend $10-15K more and just get the F80, not having to worry about as much reliability with the car.

I'm actually more into the styling of the F80 tbh. I just like the nostalgia and NA factor of the E90. But in the same breath would rather give that up for the tech inside the F80 body.

Other than the crank hub issue with the F80, is there other known issues to worry about? I will be leaving the vehicle COMPLETELY stock.

Convince me either way. I see a TON of lease transfer offers on F80's and wondered why. Even some giving up their F80 to hunt for an E92.
First off, have you driven either of these 2 vehicles? If not, I think you should, that could go a long ways in helping you decide.

If you need something soon, there's considerably more F80's on the market than E90's. A quick search on Autotrader shows just 37 E90 LCI M3's, and 448 F80 M3's. You have a huge selection of F80's to choose from, while you could be waiting a long time to find a loaded AW/FR E90 M3.

Lastly, I wouldn't worry about TA's, they're just another part that will eventually fail and you fix. Rod bearings are different and I understand the apprehension there - if they fail you've got a serious and expensive problem on your hand.
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      11-04-2019, 07:35 PM   #6
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I like the F80 styling and chassis, but the engine does nothing to excite me. Yes, it's fast, but that's not the most important thing to me.
E90s are reliable overall, but can be expensive to maintain if neglected. Look for a well maintained example (modest miles, good records, perfect PPI) and you should be in good shape. Budget RBs (preventively) and TAs someday when they go (reactively).
I don't think the tech in the F80 is all that much more advanced (at least compared to an LCI E9x with combox, PDC, CA, etc.) but also don't care for the latest and greatest tech in my cars.

I've spent F80 money on my E90 within the last year. No regrets, different strokes (80mm versus 75.2mm, lol) for different folks.

If you like the S55 engine and the F80 in general, go that route. It's a lot of car for the money and objectively probably the better value (given OTD price and age/miles/performance).
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      11-04-2019, 08:05 PM   #7
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How many miles are you looking at on the e90? I'm going to be honest, I love the e9x M3 platform, I've had my m3 for 3 years but with the pricing of e9x's under 60k miles currently I don't agree with it. The reason being there's a ton of f80's and f82's going for 35-45k with sub 45k miles. Lower mileage e9x's are selling for 30-35k, spend another 5k and you're in a f8x. I just can't justify the price of an e9x in the current market when you can get a newer and more refined M series for 5-10k more (10k being max).
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      11-04-2019, 08:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by sd********* View Post
How many miles are you looking at on the e90? I'm going to be honest, I love the e9x M3 platform, I've had my m3 for 3 years but with the pricing of e9x's under 60k miles currently I don't agree with it. The reason being there's a ton of f80's and f82's going for 35-45k with sub 45k miles. Lower mileage e9x's are selling for 30-35k, spend another 5k and you're in a f8x. I just can't justify the price of an e9x in the current market when you can get a newer and more refined M series for 5-10k more (10k being max).
The market prices low-mileage E9x M's at a premium (relative to age) over F80's for a reason... a slightly more modern turboed 6 cylinder isn't very special in this day and age.
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      11-04-2019, 08:40 PM   #9
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Having both, I enjoy the F82 M4 more. The E92 was fun, still sounds great! But the raw power in the F8X, is just overwhelming and fun.
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      11-04-2019, 09:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wfdeacon88 View Post
The market prices low-mileage E9x M's at a premium (relative to age) over F80's for a reason... a slightly more modern turboed 6 cylinder isn't very special in this day and age.
Nor would I say the F8x is more refined. I think the interior feels cheaper.
The thrust is real, but the power curve and sound are a total letdown. So it depends on what you want and how you drive. But I agree, for most people the F8x is the better buy at current prices. You have to love the S65 to justify it.
Iíve put plenty of miles on a close friendís base F80 (6MT, non ZCP), I knew I liked the E9x more regardless of price (and have now spent more than him, including some mods).
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      11-05-2019, 10:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00nFedFilms View Post
So I figured posting this here would be the most ideal since the E90 was my first choice.

I'm new here and signed up simply just to start my obsession for a new car. An E90. LCI with all options. AW on FR. After a few weeks of searching, I came to this conclusion about my possible future ownership.

- I'll have to replace the rod bearings.
- I'll have to replace the TA at some point.

So then I got to thinking. What if the previous owner wasn't as obsessed as me? What if he daily drove the car and just started it up and went. Not a care in the world. That type of care tends to relay to all aspects of the ownership responsibilities. That's when I thought, we'll maybe I should just spend $10-15K more and just get the F80, not having to worry about as much reliability with the car.

I'm actually more into the styling of the F80 tbh. I just like the nostalgia and NA factor of the E90. But in the same breath would rather give that up for the tech inside the F80 body.

Other than the crank hub issue with the F80, is there other known issues to worry about? I will be leaving the vehicle COMPLETELY stock.

Convince me either way. I see a TON of lease transfer offers on F80's and wondered why. Even some giving up their F80 to hunt for an E92.

I have two E9X M3s and a F80 CS


This forum has blown the TA issue completely out of proportion. It is a piece that eventually fails and gives you tons of time from when you first get the code to when the car is in permanent limp mode.
It is pointless to worry about TAs. The day they fail you replace them.

The rod bearings for sure are something I think you should get done as soon as you get the car. This is the one Achilles heel of the E9X.


If you do some research on cars you will find every single one of them has at least one serious issue.
In the E9X it's rod bearings, which cost ~2500 to replace including your engine mounts.
As far as 'terminal issues' go, this is pretty much a best case scenario: well documented, DIY anyone could do, easy access, BE bearings are affordable and solve the problem once and for all.


The F80 has the crank hub. Although it is evidently related to power output judging by the amount of idiots who tune it to 550whp and spin the crank a day later, it apparently has also happened to stock cars.
A hub crank 'fix' is a crapton of money, there is almost no documentation out there about the solutions and it's impossible to DIY.
The F80 also has other issues, like the coolant entering the engine because the radiator fails with no warning.



Drive each on the street and you'll know what you prefer.
The F80 is substantially faster than the E9X at the track, but on the street I way prefer the E9X: better steering, no turbo lag, wonderful sound, still fast.


Both are very solid options with different initial characters but at the limit they are carbon copies of each other, like all M3s are: easy to drive, communicative, doesn't bite, fast as hell.

At this point I would not buy another E9X for track use as it's too expensive to make it the same speed as an F80, however, for the street I still prefer an E9X by a wide margin.
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      11-05-2019, 04:15 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I have two E9X M3s and a F80 CS


This forum has blown the TA issue completely out of proportion. It is a piece that eventually fails and gives you tons of time from when you first get the code to when the car is in permanent limp mode.
It is pointless to worry about TAs. The day they fail you replace them.

The rod bearings for sure are something I think you should get done as soon as you get the car. This is the one Achilles heel of the E9X.


If you do some research on cars you will find every single one of them has at least one serious issue.
In the E9X it's rod bearings, which cost ~2500 to replace including your engine mounts.
As far as 'terminal issues' go, this is pretty much a best case scenario: well documented, DIY anyone could do, easy access, BE bearings are affordable and solve the problem once and for all.


The F80 has the crank hub. Although it is evidently related to power output judging by the amount of idiots who tune it to 550whp and spin the crank a day later, it apparently has also happened to stock cars.
A hub crank 'fix' is a crapton of money, there is almost no documentation out there about the solutions and it's impossible to DIY.
The F80 also has other issues, like the coolant entering the engine because the radiator fails with no warning.



Drive each on the street and you'll know what you prefer.
The F80 is substantially faster than the E9X at the track, but on the street I way prefer the E9X: better steering, no turbo lag, wonderful sound, still fast.


Both are very solid options with different initial characters but at the limit they are carbon copies of each other, like all M3s are: easy to drive, communicative, doesn't bite, fast as hell.

At this point I would not buy another E9X for track use as it's too expensive to make it the same speed as an F80, however, for the street I still prefer an E9X by a wide margin.
Summed up perfectly

And there are reputable shops out there who will do rod bearings for under $2,000.
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      11-05-2019, 04:40 PM   #13
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Feels stupid to say out loud, but i have spent the equivalent of a new f80m3 on my 2011 e90 m3 in the last 2 years. If I had a choice, i would do it all over again. The s65 engine either speaks to you, or it doesnt. For me the e90m3 is a forever car. I am not looking at any of the newer M cars to replace the e90m3. That doesnt mean i wont own any of the newer M cars, but they will just be passing phases. I also own an e30 which i have had since 2002 and have put a stupid fuckin amount of money into, and thought i would never ever replace it. But as i get older and have less and less time and energy to put into cars, i have started to consider selling the e30 in order to preserve the e90m3. I just like it that much.

For context, i have had extended time with an f82m4. It was FAST with only bolt ons and a tune. Initially i was blown away by the power, but that novelty soon disappeared and I was left with a car that just didnt feel special. I even got SUPER close to buying a DINAN stroker e60m5 after my first e90m3 was totalled, but after test driving and thinking it over, i decided i needed another e90m3 DCT.
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      11-05-2019, 04:46 PM   #14
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Feels stupid to say out loud, but i have spent the equivalent of a new f80m3 on my 2011 e90 m3 in the last 2 years. If I had a choice, i would do it all over again. The s65 engine either speaks to you, or it doesnt. For me the e90m3 is a forever car. I am not looking at any of the newer M cars to replace the e90m3. That doesnt mean i wont own any of the newer M cars, but they will just be passing phases. I also own an e30 which i have had since 2002 and have put a stupid fuckin amount of money into, and thought i would never ever replace it. But as i get older and have less and less time and energy to put into cars, i have started to consider selling the e30 in order to preserve the e90m3. I just like it that much.

For context, i have had extended time with an f82m4. It was FAST with only bolt ons and a tune. Initially i was blown away by the power, but that novelty soon disappeared and I was left with a car that just didnt feel special. I even got SUPER close to buying a DINAN stroker e60m5 after my first e90m3 was totalled, but after test driving and thinking it over, i decided i needed another e90m3 DCT.
I don't think an E9X M can be beaten as an all round car. They got so many things right with it!

Some people also feel building a stroker when my E90 M engine blew was stupid. I feel it was the best possible use of the money. It manages to elevate the E9X experience which is incredibly hard.
I've driven so many cars on track, #1 is still the E9X M3.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 11-05-2019 at 05:01 PM..
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      11-05-2019, 06:47 PM   #15
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      11-06-2019, 02:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Drive each on the street and you'll know what you prefer.
The F80 is substantially faster than the E9X at the track, but on the street I way prefer the E9X: better steering, no turbo lag, wonderful sound, still fast.

Both are very solid options with different initial characters but at the limit they are carbon copies of each other, like all M3s are: easy to drive, communicative, doesn't bite, fast as hell.

At this point I would not buy another E9X for track use as it's too expensive to make it the same speed as an F80, however, for the street I still prefer an E9X by a wide margin.
I'll probably get shot for saying this on M3Post but I think in terms of inheriting "motorsport" spirit F82 M4 is arguably a purer machine than E92; it is lighter, more focused and more brutal (cheap, lightweight interior & not even a passenger "Jesus"handle!").

I find, ironically, where E92 shines is the overall balance.
Initial turn in,although heavy, feels sharper than F8x and I attribute this to an inherently front mid-mounted engine layout (cross plane V8 behind the strut mounts). You are never out of control even when sliding, and the car gains traction with a touch of throttle.
Interior is also miles better than F82.
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      11-06-2019, 03:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I'll probably get shot for saying this on M3Post but I think in terms of inheriting "motorsport" spirit F82 M4 is arguably a purer machine than E92; it is lighter, more focused and more brutal (cheap, lightweight interior & not even a passenger "Jesus"handle!").

I find, ironically, where E92 shines is the overall balance.
Initial turn in,although heavy, feels sharper than F8x and I attribute this to an inherently front mid-mounted engine layout (cross plane V8 behind the strut mounts). You are never out of control even when sliding, and the car gains traction with a touch of throttle.
Interior is also miles better than F82.
I agree that the f80 is probably rawer feeling in some ways, attributable to it being stiffer and itís power delivery being so abrupt. I donít think itís purer until you get to the CS level, and even then, itís a highly less analogue vehicle than the e9x.

Also, donít be so sure to believe that the f80 is at all lighter. In real life, they have essentially the same curb weight (maybe f8x 20 or so pounds less) when taking into account equipment levels. Lots of independent measurements of that. While BMWs marketing materials inferred it was lighter when they were hyping the release, itís really more that they didnít increase in weight while getting bigger. Real life trim and weighed at the scaled (and not manufacturer curb weight from press releases), they are basically the same. Disappointing, I know.
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      11-06-2019, 03:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3 View Post
Also, donít be so sure to believe that the f80 is at all lighter. In real life, they have essentially the same curb weight (maybe f8x 20 or so pounds less) when taking into account equipment levels. Lots of independent measurements of that. While BMWs marketing materials inferred it was lighter when they were hyping the release, itís really more that they didnít increase in weight while getting bigger. Real life trim and weighed at the scaled (and not manufacturer curb weight from press releases), they are basically the same. Disappointing, I know.
Yup, they do weigh the same. My CS is 3600lb when weighed with a full tank and fully OEM. My E92 is also 3600lb in the same conditions.

As usual people do some fishy weighing, '3 gallons in the tank', 'aftermarket wheels' or whatever BS... but apples to apples... doesn't look great for the F80

What is very impressive is that they made the car larger while maintaining the weight stable. It weighs hundreds of pounds less than its competitors
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      11-06-2019, 04:05 PM   #19
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Rod bearings shouldn't be a factor as to whether or not to buy the car, the problem is so massively over analysed. It's max $3k to fix it forever, and your engine mounts are guaranteed to be shot and will need to be replaced anyway. I did mine for peace of mind, they showed very little wear after 26k miles and didn't need doing at all. The engine is not a 'ticking time bomb'. Factor the rod bearings into the purchase cost and its a complete non issue.

Depends what your doing with it, both cars have their advantages and disadvantages.

F80 has a stiffer chassis, better differential, better technology, better brakes, better cooling for the track, and more space. There are also loads more clean examples around. Its also in a completely different orbit when it comes to speed, no question. However its a big car, the stock seats are not great (no quick fit pro for the track), and the sound it makes is very subjective.

The e9x has reasonably feel some hydraulic steering (monoballs help with this a lot), a lovely high revving engine with fantastic throttle response which is very easy to modulate on the track, sounds good (although the way people talk about it on here you would think its a flat plane crank Ferrari V8), has just the right amount of tech, good seats, and is overall very reliable. Downsides are the headlights are crap, the air conditioning system is garbage, fuel consumption is terrible, it feels like a heavy car, and out of the box its way too soft. A stock e9x has very little drama and feels like a GT car, it needs an exhaust absolute minimum. Coilovers also do wonders for the handling and make it feel way more like a 'sports car'.

Personally I love the e9x but all cars are an experience, my advice would be buy a nice e9x and add the appropriate mods run it for a couple of years, if your ready to try something else.. great.. sell it for very little loss as most of the depreciation is done. Stock for stock I would take the F80, although to date I have not owned one. M2C would also be a very good option if you have the budget.
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      11-06-2019, 06:06 PM   #20
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There are going to be a million 3.0L turbo cars for the next decade or so until everything becomes electric.

Aside from the GT350 and the E92 and some 200k+ exotic cars, it's your last chance to reliably own a special engine with truly unique power delivery.

You'll have plenty of chances to own a car similar to the F8x or even better, but I don't think the same can be said about the E9x. I say get a Carmax car transferred to your nearest location, spent $3200 on a warranty for 50k miles, drive it hard with peace of mind and take your pick of about 10 different 3.0L turbos in 3 years.
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      11-06-2019, 10:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by chocstraw View Post
There are going to be a million 3.0L turbo cars for the next decade or so until everything becomes electric.

Aside from the GT350 and the E92 and some 200k+ exotic cars, it's your last chance to reliably own a special engine with truly unique power delivery.

You'll have plenty of chances to own a car similar to the F8x or even better, but I don't think the same can be said about the E9x. I say get a Carmax car transferred to your nearest location, spent $3200 on a warranty for 50k miles, drive it hard with peace of mind and take your pick of about 10 different 3.0L turbos in 3 years.
This. F80 are great though and on another level fast. OP is not making a mistake either way here.
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      11-07-2019, 07:39 AM   #22
kyrix1st
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The e9x has reasonably feel some hydraulic steering (monoballs help with this a lot), a lovely high revving engine with fantastic throttle response which is very easy to modulate on the track, sounds good (although the way people talk about it on here you would think its a flat plane crank Ferrari V8), has just the right amount of tech, good seats, and is overall very reliable.
It was criticized for being too quiet on its launch.

I've always liked the sound because no other V8 sounded like the S65. Almost like a whale-like sound.

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