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      12-11-2018, 04:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
if you look back, all of the "collector" type of cars are the M cars that were either unique or had major advancements.

e30 - first of its kind
e46 - much more advanced than the e36, still beautiful
e9x - much faster than the e46, still beautiful
m coupe Z cars - unique and rare

there will be faster cars in the future, but maybe not as inspiring.
That's my thinking.

I'm putting myself in the year 2030 when the idea of a practical, all round family performance car will mean electric. And then imaging myself missing the sound of an internal combustion engine climbing it's way through the gears, and the blips as it down shifts. What M car would I be thinking of??

The V8 is the best at that, and that will never change now. The days of raw naturally aspirated M cars peaked with the V8/V10 and now they will only be turbo, then electric. And today, honestly I would be perfectly happy with the current turbo M cars, but as a piece of history in the future, I think the V8 would have the most appeal.

I also agree that for similar reasons the original E30 will become even more desirable, but hard to find a tidy low miler today. Also, I wonder how great it would be to drive by modern standards? I can imagine my 430D GC would run rings around it in any situation..
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      12-11-2018, 11:52 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by lat77 View Post
BMW made thousands of them

Yes... 17,000 worldwide between 2008-2013... or roughly the amount of new Toyota's that roll off the assembly line every day and a half.

I'm not saying this is a full-blown collectors car, but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as some over-produced car.
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      12-11-2018, 03:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by cjm41 View Post
Yes... 17,000 worldwide between 2008-2013... or roughly the amount of new Toyota's that roll off the assembly line every day and a half.

I'm not saying this is a full-blown collectors car, but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as some over-produced car.
Thats not quote correct bro. More like 65.000 E9xMs where of the Coupe around 30k. Still a fairly low production number compared to various viewed as rare cars.

https://bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=50
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      12-11-2018, 03:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cjm41 View Post
Yes... 17,000 worldwide between 2008-2013... or roughly the amount of new Toyota's that roll off the assembly line every day and a half.

I'm not saying this is a full-blown collectors car, but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as some over-produced car.
Thats not quote correct bro. More like 65.000 E9xMs where of the Coupe around 40k. Still a fairly low production number compared to various viewed as rare cars.

https://bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=50
I was using alternative facts.

Jk- I'm not sure where I got that number now, I just pulled up the doc I've seen and I'm not sure where the 17k came from. Maybe the e92 M3 production for North America (about 16k). I don't know, maybe I'm finally just losing my mind.

65k is a lot more. I don't think anyone would push back if I said the Porsche 911 was a pretty special car and the current generation has had over 168k produced, worldwide.

Either way- I'll concede I shared a bad number, but I'm going to stand by my belief that these cars were produced in numbers that make them relatively special.
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      12-11-2018, 03:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by cjm41 View Post
I was using alternative facts.

Jk- I'm not sure where I got that number now, I just pulled up the doc I've seen and I'm not sure where the 17k came from. Maybe the e92 M3 production for North America (about 16k). I don't know, maybe I'm finally just losing my mind.

65k is a lot more. I don't think anyone would push back if I said the Porsche 911 was a pretty special car and the current generation has had over 168k produced, worldwide.

Either way- I'll concede I shared a bad number, but I'm going to stand by my belief that these cars were produced in numbers that make them relatively special.
All relative I guess. Apparently Ferrari make 7k cars/y with only the 458 Italy produced in over 10k. Must make the M3 Sedan rare with 9k in total...
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      12-11-2018, 04:04 PM   #28
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I'm under no illusions here, it's not a 'rare' car really.

But if I take a good one now and simply maintain it, along with a solid weekly drive, in ten years time it will be rare due to its condition. In that time many will be modified/crashed/written off or simply end up with spaceship mileage. Or basic bad maintenance. I feel all I have to do now is take one out of that cycle and protect it for 10 years. It will then be a fairly rare example, and also a rarer car compared with today.

I don't feel I have very much to lose really. I can't imagine it won't hold onto whatever I pay, and there is also a reasonable chance it will gain value long term. And in finding out, I get a weekly blast in my own M3 for a decade..
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      12-11-2018, 06:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm41 View Post
65k is a lot more. I don't think anyone would push back if I said the Porsche 911 was a pretty special car and the current generation has had over 168k produced, worldwide.

Either way- I'll concede I shared a bad number, but I'm going to stand by my belief that these cars were produced in numbers that make them relatively special.
The 911 is a good comparison because production increased greatly with the release of the 996 versus the previous models. I would not call anything beyond the 993 a 'collector car' that's going to increase in value--it's more like there's a 'floor' in the value that the car does not seem to drop below (in the case of the 996, it's about $15k).

This is what I see happening to the E9x cars--they're not going to increase greatly in price, but you won't see them for $4995 on used lots any time soon, either.
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      12-11-2018, 10:59 PM   #30
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I have 2 m3's one all stock low mileage e92 zcp manual and an e90 zcp dct which is my dd. I am thinking they will hold their resale value pretty well, similar to the audi B7 RS4. I could see competition packages with manuals go up in value. They are kind of rare. Only thing that i could forsee hurting our resale is the surge of electric vehicles (i am talking 8-10 years from now). Gas prices may go up. All speculation. Personally i would never buy a hybrid or electric vehicle even if it was 100 dollars. I like that tesla is american, thats kind of cool but i also love flying by them at 120 mph on the highway.
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      12-11-2018, 11:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Headhunter.M3 View Post
I like that tesla is american, thats kind of cool but i also love flying by them at 120 mph on the highway with a roar.
Correction
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      12-12-2018, 01:38 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Headhunter.M3 View Post
I have 2 m3's one all stock low mileage e92 zcp manual and an e90 zcp dct which is my dd. I am thinking they will hold their resale value pretty well, similar to the audi B7 RS4. I could see competition packages with manuals go up in value. They are kind of rare. Only thing that i could forsee hurting our resale is the surge of electric vehicles (i am talking 8-10 years from now). Gas prices may go up. All speculation. Personally i would never buy a hybrid or electric vehicle even if it was 100 dollars. I like that tesla is american, thats kind of cool but i also love flying by them at 120 mph on the highway.
Never buy one? You sound like the sort of person that would have little option but to pay an inflated price for an old, low mileage IC M3 one day
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      12-12-2018, 08:16 AM   #33
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Electric vehicles are very impressive, I'd quite happily commute in a Tesla. Less NVH, you don't need to waste time in the gas station, significantly lower servicing requirements, effortless torque, tax breaks, and net fewer emissions. Drive the electric car for the planet during the week, so you can enjoy the magic of combustion on the weekend.
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      12-12-2018, 08:24 AM   #34
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Yeah, I never understand the Tesla negativity. Tesla owners might as well say "I would never buy one of those slow-accelerating M3s that don't have any torque."
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      12-12-2018, 08:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Electric vehicles are very impressive, I'd quite happily commute in a Tesla. Less NVH, you don't need to waste time in the gas station, significantly lower servicing requirements, effortless torque, tax breaks, and net fewer emissions. Drive the electric car for the planet during the week, so you can enjoy the magic of combustion on the weekend.
I agree with all but the last bit - because the electric daily drivers seem destined to soon enough be more fun than the IC cars. Tesla aren't quite there with fun factor just yet, the model S is extremely impressive but apparently it's really not very 'sports car' beyond the obvious power. I suppose it is inevitable that there will be a full bloodied BMW M electric car before very long.

I think regardless of performance though, some people will want to continue to own an IC car for a variety of reasons, engine sound, mechanical satisfaction, nostalgia and so on.
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      12-12-2018, 08:43 AM   #36
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I agree with all but the last bit - because the electric daily drivers seem destined to soon enough be more fun than the IC cars. Tesla aren't quite there with fun factor just yet, the model S is extremely impressive but apparently it's really not very 'sports car' beyond the obvious power. I suppose it is inevitable that there will be a full bloodied BMW M electric car before very long.

I think regardless of performance though, some people will want to continue to own an IC car for a variety of reasons, engine sound, mechanical satisfaction, nostalgia and so on.
If you take the emotion out of it, the case for purely combustion engine cars as a mode of transport is getting weaker all the time. For electric cars cost is still somewhat prohibitive, as is range (for purely electric) but other than that it makes a lot of sense. The majority of regular cars do their best to isolate you from the driving experience anyway. Even BMW's standard lineup is pretty dynamically soulless, most of the engine sound comes through the speakers anyway! If moving to electric cars means we can continue to enjoy the S65 or a screaming Porsche flat 6 for longer i'm all for it.
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      12-12-2018, 08:45 AM   #37
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Yeah, I never understand the Tesla negativity. Tesla owners might as well say "I would never buy one of those slow-accelerating M3s that don't have any torque."
It is dumb. In the next decade the swing to electric will be huge, that's not a guess - it's a fact. Targets have been set already by most vehicle producing countries to cease IC production. It won't be that long at all in automotive terms before people have no option but embrace electric cars, if they want a new car.
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      12-14-2018, 08:20 AM   #38
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Yeah, I never understand the Tesla negativity. Tesla owners might as well say "I would never buy one of those slow-accelerating M3s that don't have any torque."
You know what---I agree 100% with this. Let them become a lot more popular so that they can offset my carbon footprint when I add another gas guzzler to the fleet in a year or so (GC SRT).
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      12-14-2018, 09:49 AM   #39
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I'm one of those that as soon as I heard of the turbo engines in F80 announcements, I purchased an E92 6MT ZCP in 2013 right at the end of production.
Because of travel and having other cars as daily drivers my particular M has enjoyed extremely low mileage demands, while I have certainly maintained its fluids and keeping it fresh.
I do look forward to, down the road, it being a unicorn; but when I do start it up for a heated drive it spikes my adrenaline, especially with that Corsa exhaust. Best mod ever.
The forced age of the electric vehicle -to take over ? Well, this car will become the Red Barchetta as Rush performed in concert when I was a kid. An outlaw vehicle concept. Yeah I paid the gas guzzler tax !
Never will there be a better way to blow a few bucks on fossil fuel!
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      12-14-2018, 10:26 AM   #40
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I'm one of those that as soon as I heard of the turbo engines in F80 announcements, I purchased an E92 6MT ZCP in 2013 right at the end of production.
Because of travel and having other cars as daily drivers my particular M has enjoyed extremely low mileage demands, while I have certainly maintained its fluids and keeping it fresh.
I do look forward to, down the road, it being a unicorn; but when I do start it up for a heated drive it spikes my adrenaline, especially with that Corsa exhaust. Best mod ever.
The forced age of the electric vehicle -to take over ? Well, this car will become the Red Barchetta as Rush performed in concert when I was a kid. An outlaw vehicle concept. Yeah I paid the gas guzzler tax !
Never will there be a better way to blow a few bucks on fossil fuel!
I expect that one day someone will stumble onto my car in my great grandson's garage and it'll be like the scene from Demolition Man where they come across an Olds 442 in the underground mole people place.
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      12-17-2018, 12:51 AM   #41
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I spend a lot of time pouring over transaction prices of BMWs and I've put what I believe to be some (not all) collector BMWs in my fleet. When you speak of collector examples there will only be certain cars that fit this bill in most cases. They need to be special or sought after colors, desirable options/configurations, and always low miles. The rest are just used cars. If you look at the E36 and E46 values these are the cars that stand out, the rest continue to depreciate. So with that in mind will the E9x be a future collector? The answer is certainly yes, however we're only talking about certain examples. ALL E9x M3's will not be collectors. If this is something you're going for then you have to buy that kind of car right now, you can't simply buy a used M3. Hopefully that makes sense. Good Luck.
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      12-17-2018, 03:35 AM   #42
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I spend a lot of time pouring over transaction prices of BMWs and I've put what I believe to be some (not all) collector BMWs in my fleet. When you speak of collector examples there will only be certain cars that fit this bill in most cases. They need to be special or sought after colors, desirable options/configurations, and always low miles. The rest are just used cars. If you look at the E36 and E46 values these are the cars that stand out, the rest continue to depreciate. So with that in mind will the E9x be a future collector? The answer is certainly yes, however we're only talking about certain examples. ALL E9x M3's will not be collectors. If this is something you're going for then you have to buy that kind of car right now, you can't simply buy a used M3. Hopefully that makes sense. Good Luck.
It does make sense, but I also think 'the right M3' tomorrow might not be particularly interesting today.

I was thinking of buying a 40-50k 2 door with EDC + DCT, probably 2009. At present that's almost a typical M3, but in ten years time with me only doing 1000-1500 miles a year, it will end up considerably lower mileage than most at that point.

I am budget limited so I pretty much have to grow a low mileage car over time, rather than buy one today.

I do think that any M3 in the fullness of time will become 'special' purely as most of a similar age will end up with far higher miles and more wear and tear by the time they're 20 years old. I accept that some will be more special than others, but like I say I have budget to consider too!

What do you think of my logic on the above?
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      12-17-2018, 04:19 AM   #43
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I think the limited addition cars will be classics like the lime rock e92, e30 M3, euro spec E36 M3,CSL E46 M3, 1M, Audi RS4, Audi TTRS, Focus RS these are some of the few.

Last edited by last1left; 12-17-2018 at 04:30 AM..
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      12-17-2018, 05:20 AM   #44
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I think the limited addition cars will be classics like the lime rock e92, e30 M3, euro spec E36 M3,CSL E46 M3, 1M, Audi RS4, Audi TTRS, Focus RS these are some of the few.
Would a mint low mileage none limited edition version of those cars also be quite valuable in ten years time though? I think so - just not as valuable as the limited edition models.

I'm thinking of older cars such as the escort RS 1600/2000, which in mint condition is now very valuable, even if it's just a standard version and in spite of the fact so many were made originally.
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