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04-05-2014, 07:20 PM | #67 |
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informative and interesting...however, has BMW come out with an official statement saying it is recommended that all M3 owners change/use the "thinner" oil?
Because if BMW has not ...wont they have the option to use this against you when your bearings go out anyways or some other component in the engine grenades... Just sayin.... |
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04-05-2014, 07:52 PM | #68 | |
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Most members here were not planning to change away from 10W60 until their warranty expired anyways. |
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04-05-2014, 08:05 PM | #69 | ||
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Best thing to do should be.. ask BMW/Germany (when possible ?) They should and must know it ?!?! Ones and for all.......
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04-05-2014, 09:20 PM | #70 | |
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Just saying, not every decision BMW makes is direct from engineering or has the right motivation. They might even make mistakes! |
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04-05-2014, 10:15 PM | #71 | |
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Anytime anyone demands proof positive about things that happen behind closed doors at a fairly secretive organization it is a discussion ender. We just aren't given that kind of access and I think you know that. Try a google search for "SAE engine oil system optimization" (SAE I think you know if the largest publisher of automotive research and engineering papers). Want to guess how many hits you find - 916,000. Now please, tell me again you don't think BMW M did ANY of this type of work with their highest reving and highest tech NA engine ever... If you think that it's really time for a reality check. If you don't believe that any part of the entire oil lubrication system had some theoretical (i.e. numerical, i.e. CFD), system based engineering (simplified differential equation based) or plain old trial and error experimental optimization, then we probably really can't have much more of a discussion on this point. Believing otherwise seems typical for you and some in your camp on the overall state of automotive engineering and what actually goes into designing an engine let alone a whole vehicle. How about crash testing, can you find proof positive from BMW that they did crash testing on the M3? It's trivial to find the 3rd party private/governmental testing but not the factory testing. Wouldn't it be quite foolish to believe that they didn't also do a significant amount of engineering optimization of many parts of the crash system of the car. The only answer is yes. Can I prove it right now, nope. Would I bet $100k on it, instantly.
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04-05-2014, 10:18 PM | #72 | |
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04-05-2014, 11:31 PM | #73 | ||
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04-06-2014, 01:28 AM | #74 | |
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Oh, and BTW, anytime you call somebody a fanboy, yes that is flame baiting. |
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04-06-2014, 01:51 AM | #75 | |
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04-06-2014, 08:06 AM | #76 | |
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There's been no evidence of a ~50k mile S65/S85 with proper bearing wear, but tons of evidence of them with bad bearing wear. That's pretty tough to refute.
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04-06-2014, 08:30 AM | #77 | |
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Now, is this really a problem? I think not. |
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04-06-2014, 09:43 AM | #78 | |
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On another note, the topic of bearing wear and oil weight seems to be nearly as polarizing as republican or democrat. |
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04-06-2014, 11:07 AM | #79 | |
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Obviously neither of us know exactly what the entire population of bearings actually look like...
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04-06-2014, 11:16 AM | #80 | ||
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Lastly, I've already pointed out that I don't believe the system won't be highly robust to relatively small changes in oil viscosity, pertty well all oil systems from the most basic to the more advanced are in fact robust to such changes. My only point was again (beating the dead horse). The system has has significant optimization and 10W-60 was used during development and optimization. I honestly think you disagree with those points, it's really some massive denial solely for the point of disagreeing with SFP.
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04-06-2014, 11:19 AM | #81 | |
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And just to be clear, I have personally switched to 0W-40. There appears to be no downsides, cost is great and some basic engineering principles indicate it might help with wear.
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04-06-2014, 11:23 AM | #82 |
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Absolutely. A HUGE problem with this entire bearing thing is the lack of controlled data or even loosely controlled data. Specifically with regards to making changes and observing the results, oil and treated bearings being the most important.
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04-06-2014, 01:53 PM | #83 | |
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So give me theoretical examples how the S65 oil system was optimized for 10W60 and tell me what those types of optimizations might be. Then switch the discussion to 0W40 and tell me how those optimizations will change. I would highly suggest you look at an oil schematic of the S65 before you do this. The oil schematic is published in some BMW documents that are publicly available through TIS (I can't post them here because BMW got real pissy when I did that once before). Look in that schematic and tell me which components are optimized for 10W60 and what those optimizations might be. I don't think you're naive enough to suggest that these optimizations are things like bore size of the oil galleys -- and that's why I'm suggesting you look at the actual components and (seeing how few there really are) tell me how those components are optimized for 10W60 and how their design would change if the oil switched to 0W40. That's all I'm asking. Now go for it and stop all this other chest beating nonsense. My disagreement with SFP is because what he's saying doesn't make sense to me. I think it would be foolish to think the bore diameters of oil galleys are these "comprehensive optimizations" you and SFP are talking about. The pump design itself can't be what you're talking about. The VANOS runs off pressure which will be maintained by the pump's overkill design. That leads us back to bearing clearances -- which if they're really optimized for 10W60, you'll have to argue need to be even smaller if you switch to 0W40. So have at it, talk about actual S65, not 918,000 theoretical SAE articles that have no relevance to the actual discussion at hand. Last edited by regular guy; 04-06-2014 at 02:03 PM.. |
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04-06-2014, 02:51 PM | #84 | ||
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Most engines are based on previous designs, but have differences due to refinements, and design changes. As for an engine optimized to use a specific oil grade that is laughable. Engine designers pick oils that suit the specifications, operating parameters, desired oil drain interval and climate where the engine will be used. The TWS/Edge 10w60 was around for lots of years with it's base stock and additive pack basically unchanged....... So swamp or SFP, tell me why BMW would design their new cutting edge engine around an old oil? The only reason I could see is a marketing agreement!? Anyone who has half a clue about engines and oil knows that there are many oils on the market that fit the bill much better in the S65 than the OE TWS/Edge!!!!! |
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04-06-2014, 03:37 PM | #85 | |
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04-06-2014, 04:34 PM | #86 | |
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This is like my industry...stock analysis/stock market. The smartest and brightest guys have all the evidence in the world on why the market is going up, and some even smarter guys think the exact opposite. In the end allot of it has to do with chance..and neither is right all the time... Lets face it, this argument rages on because no one really knows, not even BMW...but they hold the trump card ...and its called your warranty. |
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04-06-2014, 04:58 PM | #87 | |
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04-07-2014, 12:01 AM | #88 | |||||
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Let me preface this by repeating, now I think for the 3rd time. Was the oil system in the S65 optimized TO USE 10W-60, certainly not. Is the system very robust to viscosity changes, obviously yes, since those normally occur across both engine operating and external temperature changes. But again.... Was the engine DESIGNED, TESTED, SIMULATED and had some oil components optimized USING THE KNOWN PROPERTIES OF 10W-60 AT A NOMINAL TEMPERATURE AND VISCOSITY, yes, I'd say that is pretty well obvious, but is further established below.
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And again, no I can't provide the papers and proof the BMW has done so. One must appeal to common sense and some foundational knowledge of the immense, detailed and diverse simulation and optimization that goes into just about all modern vehicles. This is directly related to my profession as well. We provide the software tools to just about all of the automotive OEMs for simulation of an enormous range of different physics. The diversity of their work with our tools is unbelievable. That perspective just makes me continually giggle a bit inside when such naive BS is posted as this: Quote:
Sometimes one can benefit from just a touch more humility and to know just a small speck of what they don't know... Perhaps next we can debate whether simulation and optimization is done on the entire flow path of air and fuel through the entire intake/valve/head/DI injectors/exhaust system and also how in the combustion chamber chemical reactions and kinetics are fully simulated along with flame fronts and predicting knock and various pollutant levels... Nah, Billy Bob out there in the shop just looked at that old Hemi head and sketched the S65 one right up. Not my company but still representative...
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