Is Audi becoming a big threat for 3 series? (New A4, A5, S5)

[Robert]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Now if only somebody could combine the two....

+1 for BMW and Audi merger... but careful what you wish for... you may get audi performance and bmw design.

[methodtim]

Originally Posted by bobbo

+1 for BMW and Audi merger... but careful what you wish for... you may get audi performance and bmw design.

I think De Silva/Egger could take Bangle in a deathmatch.

[Craigito]

On a side note...Audi has some extremely lofty sales goals. They want to really become a force in the U.S. and at some point be seen as the more marquee name over BMW. Time will tell. I love the new A4 and A5 styling. I really didn't like the B6 and B7 designs but the new B8 is nice. I love the longer wheelbase. Makes the car more upscale looking IMO. S5 is just dead sexy....I won't deny that.

[Craigito]

Holy Crap...this must be a typo on the weight. This is from that C&D review.

"55.5 percent of the new A4’s 3860 pounds are over the front wheels"

[miraclewhip]

imho, and i know i can't speak for everyone, especially those that track their cars, how often do we actually push either an audi or bmw to the limit where the performance characteristics of a bmw rise above the competition? for me, other than an occasional spirited jaunt to 100km/h on an on-ramp or from a light, my bmw hasn't outshined my previous B6 A4 in such a way that would make me forget about the audi.. yes, the 335's engine has a rather blatant power advantage over the 1.8T, but the handling isn't night and day..

my audi's interior didn't rattle, squeak, chirp, and creak at all in my 3.5 years of ownership, my bmw, on the other hand, has sounds coming from everywhere and it's really depressing at times, especially since the car is only 2 months old.. the seams on the exterior of both cars is pretty good, but the design of the bmw interior just has so much room for improvement.. why are the window switches placed so damn far up??

as for the models, the comparisons don't really match up.. in terms of pure model escalation, it should go:

323 - 2.0T A4/A5
328 - 3.2 A4/A5
335 - S4/S5
M3 - RS4/RS5

that dateline special on audi's involuntarily accelerating while parked in the early 90's was complete BS and absolutely crushed the audi brand in the US.. meanwhile, bmw and MB were gaining momentum along with their market shares.. i wholeheartedly believe that if that dateline special wasn't aired, the audi brand would be in a completely different place as of this moment..

[PLAYON]

Originally Posted by Craigito

Holy Crap...this must be a typo on the weight. This is from that C&D review.

"55.5 percent of the new A4’s 3860 pounds are over the front wheels"

That may be slightly exaggerated but it's always been that way. That's the majpr knock on Audi's in general: there's a huge amount of weight over the front wheels causing an unbalanced ride. But the new styling in the B8 directly addresses that/makes for a more balanced car.

[choopy]

Originally Posted by artichoke2

everytime i see an audi on the road, i see it as an arch enemy lol. i have no idea what audi's are capable of because i have never driven one, but i know its at that competitive level with bmw and ive had 4 bmw's. the new S5 looks sharp, i saw a youtube comparison video between the S5 and 335i and the S5 won by miliseconds, but then the review gave bmw the better handling merit.

bmw all the way.

actually, it was the 335i that won by less than foot's length

[choopy]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

dude the A5/S5 makes the bmw smoke pole? why? how many 3'ers you see on the road? when was the last time you saw S5 rolling down the road? by an owner not a test-drive

even a all-black A5 is the hotness.

The new S' will have that 300-odd horsepower v-6 supercharged motor to combat the turbo so it will be interesting. you know folks will be putting pulleys on those.

The interior on the A5 takes you back to the cockpit of the E46 wrap around -bad-ass-

The A4 ehh doesn't do it for me. i'd rather stick to the 335i. i'm sorry but on 360 view the A5/S5 just walks all over anything bmw has and once you set inside its a whole nother story.

ever fishtale your 335i? in rain? in snow? that just doesn't exist with quattro. i have to actually pay attention when gunning it in the rain around a corner now. with my old A4 it was pedal to the metal even in rain - go as fast as possible and no worries.

dont get me wrong i like the bimmer but the A5 brought sexy back for audi. bmw has no comparable. now when i see the S4 Avant that might bring sexy back to audi on that front.

??? I have three audis in my garage, 2006 a8l, 2005 a4 2.ot, and 2001.5 s4, and of course my 335xi, they all are awd and ALL handle the bomb! And i would choose the BMW over all of them in a straight line or on some twisties. The s5 looks bad as hell, dont get me wrong, but the steering feel of the audi is just weak sauce, its for really fragile drivers it seems like. the BMW has a much better feel, and not to mention has much much more potential the the s5 ever will. BEEEEIIIITTTCCHHH!!!

A5 didn't bring shit back, the S5 did

[choopy]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

S5 for looks/interior. 335i for the drive.

interior looks perhaps, but not from a drivers perspective. I drive audi's all the time, as I have three that I drive regularly, and the BMW just feels more comfortable. The a4 is just plain uncomfortable and unergonomic, not a drivers car. Nice, yeah, fast, no, fun, no...

[silver]

thanks for your opinions

Audi really wants to increase sales in US, because it is the only way to be the leader in premium class, and also US is the only place where Audi's sales are low. To be the leader, the biggest issue is to beat e9x in sales

As I understand from your opinions, there are different kinds of bmw users here

1) Hardcore Bmw fans; They do not ever think to look at the Audi just because it is not a Bmw
2) The ones that think of buying a Audi (especially S5 and A5) beceause it looks elegant, has high quality interior. After a test drive these people changed their decision and bought a bmw because Audi does not give them
enough fun, perfromance, handling, sharp steering wheel etc... These people give more importance to ride quality than exterior and interior quality.
3) Ex-audi users, these people seems to be not fully satisfied with their current bmw and they miss quattro, interior quality etc...
4) Bmw users who just do not care turning corners very fast or the sharpness of steering wheel etc., the ones who do not cares performance alot.

It seems to me that most of the group 3 users will buy a Audi A4 or A5 (may be S), bmw will loose these kind of customers, in other words bmw will give them back as it takes temporary

Group 4 seems to be originated from other brands or bmw and they will choose audi over bmw in the future, may be a other brand... They are highly affected by new audi a4 and a5's style.

Audi is successful because it is taking back customers that it gave to bmw in the past, and also effecting the bmw customers who do not care of performance alot, and the question is, what is the percentage of these groups in whole bmw customers? If high, bad news for bmw

Also I want to mention that these bmw site has a very high percentage of real bmw fans (like me ) but the outside world can be different for the percentages

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by methodtim

I think De Silva/Egger could take Bangle in a deathmatch.

There is already an ex-senior Audi designer working for Bangle... That Dutch one, can't remember his name right now, but I am sure someone out there will know who I am talking about.

I don't see that De Silva is really making his mark - the shield grille was already baked into early Audis such as the B6 A4 well before De Sliva left Alfa Romeo - if you look at the bumper of a B6 A4 you will see the creases joining the upper and lower areas for form a trapezoidal shape. De Silva just continued the theme...

A lot of their current surface language is just an evolution of what the A6 started and the A4/A8 continued, and those LED DRLs are BMW Corona Ring wannabes. Audi is still searching for it's design soul, it won't get there by copying others. BMW were brave with their design language, and they have stuck to their guns. BMWs look like no other car on the road and that is a good thing in my book - these days few companies are willing to stick their gonads on the chopping block and be different, everyone wants to be the same. BMWs stubborness is paying off because they are the ones being copied now - 5 years ago it was Audi design being copied, now it is BMW - look at all those cars coming out with sharp creases and interesting BMWesque surface language - C Class anyone??

BMW put their cajolies on the line and I think it has paid off IMHO. Witness SAAB, Renault, Citroen all the old quirky guard making cars looking the same as everyone else now and leaving behind that up-yours spirit that made them interesting and in some people's eyes truly great. What is happening to car design these days??!

The best thing Audi did for the A4 was put in on the MDS platform and disengage it from the Passatt (ie Golf) platform, this means that they could get really serious about challenging BMW, but they can't because while the MDS platform is a step in the right direction it still had problems -

1. Weight distribution is still an absolute disaster, just less so than it was with the lead tipped arrow feel of the B6/B7 A4, and A6 et al.

2. The platform is still front wheel drive. Rear biased quattro is as good as it gets, and even that still has FWD handling characteristics when push comes to shove.

Audi have a long way to go before the A4 can truly be considered a BMW rival in the purest sense, and they know it. MDS is a work in progress, something put out to market to monetise the R&D they are doing. It isn't the B8 A4 BMW should worry about, it is the B9 or B10 (or whatever it will be called BA?). Those iterations will include better more refined platforms. But by then BMW will have moved on themselves.

BMW's problem in my eyes isn't the hardware but the packaging. Their 2005 E90 was starting to drift away from the pack in terms of packaging. The C-Class really put the heat on BMW with the standard inclusions, engineering features and the like, the A4 is doing the same. Both the C and the A4 are making things such as Active Steering and suspensions common place in this category - these are putting BMW into stark contrast not because it doesn't have them (as an aside here - technology is often a cheap/fast/simpler path to the brilliance inherent in proper design in the first place - many have tried to use technology to equal BMW's handling prowess, but ultimately have failed) but because this puts the problem BMW has with Run Flat Tyres into stark contrast. Apparently those on the LCI are a better generation and let's hope so because they haven't included active suspension which has been touted as a way to dial out the RFT issue.

The LCI fixes many of the packaging competitive issues - LED lights, better interior trim bits, widened track, new gen RFTs, new engine choices, new wet clutch 6sp Auto, new iDrive.

There are many things BMW could have done, but I read it that they did just enough to keep the range competitive until they release the next-gen 3 series platform.

At the end of the day IMHO the 3 Series is the purer platform, and the spec and options catalogue comparo is for people who don't value the driving as much - look it has 3 more cup holders!!! But there were some real flaws in the original E90 package, and recent competitive responses have highlighted them, and you can bet your boots that BMW has surgically honed in on them, with typical Germanic efficiency

[JamieA]

PS - I used to have an A4 and it bored me within 6 months. It was efficient but dull and boring... the BMW was a breath of fresh air and I still love it 2.5 years down the track, so much so, I am about to buy another one when the LCI is released here

[Tallest]

that Blue S5 with BBS is insanely hot.

answer to your question: Yes, I think Audi is a very credible threat to 3 series, has been for 7 years or so.

[mrad01]

Originally Posted by 320what

that Blue S5 with BBS is insanely hot.

answer to your question: Yes, I think Audi is a very credible threat to 3 series, has been for 7 years or so.

...and after 7 years or so, they still don't measure up to the BMW...

[fdiprete]

I live in New England, US where we have pretty severe winters.

Back in 99 when I bought my e36 there were a *lot* of A4's on the road. I remember seeing at least 2 or 3 of them in my view while driving. The A4's far out numbered the 3 series BMW's on the road by a huge margin.

I ran snow tires on my e36 - which sucked on dry pavement - but it sure helped me to get home.

After 9 years/137K I recently got my 325xi. (love it).

Now I see 2 or 3 BMW 3 series xi's on the road in my field of vision on the highway. They are everywhere and the Audi quattro's are few and far between.

Based on observation the BMW 3 xi series has become and is a threat to A4's, not the other way around.

Personally, I've become a BMW brand loyalist. I fell in love with the e36 the first time I drove it and feel the same way about my e90 with awd. BMW would really have to mess up big time to loses me - especially to a high priced VW.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by mrad01

...and after 7 years or so, they still don't measure up to the BMW...

I agree with that actually.

I think A4 B5 was a nice car and better than comparable E36 at the time. Much nicer cabin, more refined. The followed facelift was even nicer - it lost the ugly rear molten shape of the A4 B5, and was still great drive. The previous A4 that we just had replcaed with new one is ugly car to me, i drove it (with good engine) and found it boring and no match for the E90. THE NEW A4 though is a good car, a way better car then A4 it replaced - and E90 makers would be fools to ignore that. The facelift will adress some design things average joe complained about so it's kind of keeps the lead I think, but A4 is very close for average buyer and it will come down to brand loyalty I think.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by miraclewhip

323 - 2.0T A4/A5
328 - 3.2 A4/A5
335 - S4/S5
M3 - RS4/RS5

In the US the 2.0T is priced slightly below the 328 and the 3.2 higher than the 328 but below the 335. We don't get the 323 here.

Thanks, Mike.

[Moderato]

The A5/S5 are nice cars but they don't have that sports-car like feel the BMW's have. They aren't as balanced and feel more like really nice but heavy, point A - point B, machines. The AWD system is more set up for safety then performance, open diffs front and rear with a DSC type system. I know someone is going to chime in and tell me about Audi being so good they were banned, and all about the 40/60 TQ split. I'd say unless you've driven an STI or EVO you really don't know what a true sports AWD system is. The only Audi that really has a sports AWD system is the R8, the rest of the line up are safety designed system, just watch any episode of Top Gear and you'll see that those cars just don't have "spirit", no matter how hard you drive them. Plus, I personally like the styling of the BMW's more, both inside and out. I also like the fact that BMW is still an independent company, pretty rare these days.

[Dave4501]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

In the US the 2.0T is priced slightly below the 328 and the 3.2 higher than the 328 but below the 335. We don't get the 323 here.

It will be interesting to see how all the prices really stack up once options are added in. Base prices are always discussed but rarely have much bearing once you put some options to it.

I remember that the A5 (not S5) compares pretty closely in price to the 335 E92 but as we all know, it doesn't compare to the hp performance nor feel.

[Tim2189]

Originally Posted by User Name

I had seriously considered an Audi, the interior is fantastic IMHO. But the 335i's power just trounced the 2.0T and the gas mileage beat the S4's V8 by a lot (oh yeah, and that adaptive steering boost is just wierd).

why would you compare a 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo engine with a 3.0 twin turbo inline 6?

[Tim2189]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

Thats why I chose my 335i coupe over a A5/S5. My 335i was about the same price as a well loaded A5 S-Line, but the A5 has like half the performance of the 335i (with almost the same mpg!), and the S5 is only on par with the 335i. (So Audi's S series is only on the level of BMW's bigger engine... ha)

Audi has a terrible ED program compared to BMW, 7% BMW vs 5% Audi which isn't bad, but nobody does it, and it takes FOREVER).

And in the end, M > S
*(But if I were looking for luxury and didn't give a shit about performance, I'd be in a loaded A5 right now.)

first off the "A5 S-Line" is not a "S5" its a regular A5 with a body kit and rims so you cant be comparing a 3.2 6 cylinder audi engine to a 3.0 twin turbo inline six which the 335 pushes out

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by bobbo

+1 for BMW and Audi merger... but careful what you wish for... you may get audi performance and bmw design.

IF BWM were to ever merge with another german, it would defeinately be Mercedes. Merc will focus on luxury, BMW on sport. Already now they are cooperating on hybrid technology, stuff like motors in doors and electrics etc, and announced some kind of strategic cooperationg on certain things like engines for super minis.

Audi is under VAG which is under Porsche who have a gazillion of brands to play around with starting from Bugatti and ending with Skoda.