Gay rights

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by Imperial

I really, really don't want to start a religious debate here, but I must ask only one thing

sharp1183 - you mentioned in your explanations of Leviticus excerpts that the "uncleanliness" of shellfish was written primarily as a warning for the people of the times and as our (well, perhaps not my) cooking abilities have advanced, that rule has become dated. The same can be said of the regulations regarding slavery. I must ask, however, how it is decided which parts of the Bible are to still be taken into consideration, and which are not? I'm sure that most devout Christians don't own slaves anymore and many eat shellfish, but would still consider homosexuality an abomination. Why is it that certain things are considered to be an abomination still, but others aren't?


please note, I'm not trying to villanize you or anyone else, but I just don't necessarily understand the logic behind it...

Hey, you make a very valid point. Now we know dinosaurs existed like 3 million years ago, and man (the human we know) has probably been around for longer than 7,000, and yet, Genesis says there were only 6 days in creation. When were the dinosaurs created?

In scientific terms, the world has probably been destroyed about three times...before dinosaurs, killing micobiology, then another time killing the dinosaurs, and I think some believe there was a catastrophic incident that happen after the dinosaurs (but I could be wrong). Anyway, Genesis doens't explain any of this at all, and it certainly didn't happen in 6 days. Maybe for the ancient Hebrews, the book of Genesis was enough. But it isn't enough for us--not anymore.

We're on a mission to seek the truth, and unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever know anything for sure.

What do you take literally and what do you say is just a teaching example? I think Christianity has tried to answer some of the outdated ancient Hebrew practices, but for everything it solves, it opens up twice as many questions. I don't know the truth, and I don't say that I do. I just put faith in a higher power, and decide for myself what to take literally, and what is--pardon my french-- .

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by eimSD

Or it's a joke meant to question the wisdom of justifying a position on something with a quote from the bible.

It is a joke...I was merely trying to state that its logic is based on the wrong premise. Just because times have changed doesn't necessarily mean the message has. If you were taught not to steal someone else's camel, does that mean that stealing their car IS ok? Camels and cars aren't the issue...stealing and the motives behind it would be.

[NaTuReB0Y]

I don't want to step on anyone's foot....

but to me....."religion is for the weak minds"....Jesse Ventura

think for yourself............

[deutschmann59]

Sorry Natureboy...I guess I did go a bit off-topic. Politics and religion are two thing you should never debate because there is never a clear winner, but I just thought I throw in my 2 cents anyway, because as you can probably tell, religion (and how people interpret it) is an area that I find really interesting.

"Religion is the opiate of the people" - Karl Marx

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

Hey, you make a very valid point. Now we know dinosaurs existed like 3 million years ago, and man (the human we know) has probably been around for longer than 7,000, and yet, Genesis says there were only 6 days in creation. When were the dinosaurs created?

In scientific terms, the world has probably been destroyed about three times...before dinosaurs, killing micobiology, then another time killing the dinosaurs, and I think some believe there was a catastrophic incident that happen after the dinosaurs (but I could be wrong). Anyway, Genesis doens't explain any of this at all. And maybe for the ancient Hebrews, the book of Genesis was enough. But it isn't enough for us--not anymore.

We're on a mission to seek the truth, and unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever know anything for sure.

What do you take literally and what do you say is just a teaching example? I think Christianity has tried to answer some of the outdated ancient Hebrew practices, but for everything it solves, it opens up twice as many questions. I don't know the truth, and I don't say that I do. I just put faith in a higher power, and decide for myself what to take literally, and what is--pardon my french-- .

hey, I'm glad that we can be having this pretty grown-up discussion about something as touchy as religion. Although, I do have to say that we've steered off course now, heh.

I'm glad that you can see the differences between what the Bible says and what science tells us. I'm more inclinced to believe scientific things, I always have been, but I'm open to non-scientific things, too. Things are never absolutely one way or another, really. We probably won't ever know the absolute truth, I agree. Religious teachings, imo, are meant to be general guidelines for how to live a decent life, or how to have lived decently back then. I think what's most problematic, though, are the people who take religion, regardless of whatever it may be, far too literally and fanatically. Extremism with anything is not necessarily the best thing. Unfortunately, such is the nature of these things generally.


OKAY! Back to the initial topic...

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by Imperial

I must ask, however, how it is decided which parts of the Bible are to still be taken into consideration, and which are not?

Sorry!!! I'll shut up after this. I just want to say one more thing.

Imperial, I re-read this part of your post and thought of something, so I'll post quickly then we can get on with the original topic. Have you ever heard of The Apocrypha? These are the books that have been taken out of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) because hundreds and hundreds of years ago, councils of Rabbis (canons) have decided among themselves to take these books out. My grandmother has a KJV of the Bible that's about 40 years old, and some of the Apocrypha are in it, and some is not.

So when you asked, "how it is decided which parts of the Bible are to still be taken into consideration, and which are not?" the Apocrypha also made me ask, who gave this canon the authority to throw these books out? True they were very different than the mainstream bible books, but still, they were in the Bible once!

[JVFan]

I don't believe in the bible so whatever quote you bring up only justifies your personal belief and that is it. I am proud to be from a country that has taken a stand on gay marriage. It is great to be only the 4th country on the whole planet that has allowed civil gay marriages.

PS...I'm straight but happily welcome all people from every race, creed, nationality and orientation to our community!

[Imperial]

bringing it back to the top, I just saw this article on the BBC -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4221420.stm

[E90-4life]

I know people who are gay and to me they're very much just like anyone else, excluding the obvious. But I will say this... In the beginning it was Adam and EVE, NOT Adam and STEVE.

[E90-4life]

Originally Posted by JVFan

I don't believe in the bible so whatever quote you bring up only justifies your personal belief and that is it. I am proud to be from a country that has taken a stand on gay marriage. It is great to be only the 4th country on the whole planet that has allowed civil gay marriages.

PS...I'm straight but happily welcome all people from every race, creed, nationality and orientation to our community!

It's not the Bible, it's procreation. By promoting and allowing same sex marriage, procreation is being denied, the reason for the exsistence of the human race and the only way the human race can survive.

[Petercat]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

It's not the Bible, it's procreation. By promoting and allowing same sex marriage, procreation is being denied, the reason for the exsistence of the human race and the only way the human race can survive.

So, I guess oral sex and masturbation are out for you then.

Sorry, you don't know what you'r missing.

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

It's not the Bible, it's procreation. By promoting and allowing same sex marriage, procreation is being denied, the reason for the exsistence of the human race and the only way the human race can survive.

so by this logic, we can extrapolate that you think that the ENTIRE human population will become homosexual suddenly? That doesn't seem so feasible to me. But hey, what do I know, right?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

I know people who are gay and to me they're very much just like anyone else, excluding the obvious. But I will say this... In the beginning it was Adam and EVE, NOT Adam and STEVE.

Anna & Eve would have been nice

And yes I'm from Holland!

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Anna & Eve would have been nice

And yes I'm from Holland!

do you live in a windmill and wear wooden shoes?!?!

[gsxrpaul]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

I know people who are gay and to me they're very much just like anyone else, excluding the obvious. But I will say this... In the beginning it was Adam and EVE, NOT Adam and STEVE.

According to who, the book of stories that says someone lived in a whale and Samson lost his strength by having his hair cut.

Who cares what other people do with their own lives. How in any way is this going to affect anyone.

[MonacoBlueNJ]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

I don't want to step on anyone's foot....

but to me....."religion is for the weak minds"....Jesse Ventura

think for yourself............

Most of today's scientists(surely "stonger minded" than you or I) beleive in intelligent design.

[BellasBmw]

Ive been rasied 100% Catholic, went to private school, etc.. my parents are old school italians, so of course they do not believe in marriage for homosexuals. I, on the other hand, have been raised in today's society.. i accept everyone for who they are, and i believe homosexuals should have equal rights.

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by MonacoBlueNJ

Most of today's scientists(surely "stonger minded" than you or I) beleive in intelligent design.

According to whom? Personally I work in a scientific environment (I'm at a cell and molecular biology research lab) and it's kind of split. Some do believe in ID, but most I know believe evolution is the way it worked. A balance between science and religion, though delicate, is something that's sorely lacking. For example, one of my coworkers is Spanish (moved here from Madrid about 2 years ago) and is a devout Catholic, but he also believes in separation of church and state, such as teaching evolution in schools. Most of my other coworkers, Catholic or otherwise, also agree, but of course, we can't be used as an accurate sampling since we're only like 20 out of thousands...

[deutschmann59]

People can say evolution is heresy or anti-religious becase it questions beliefs of the last several thousand years, but we'll never advance as a society in areas of biology or genetics if we choose to dismiss it as being evil.

First and foremost, I think it's mostly true that the number one priority of all species is self-preservation. So if that means dismissing *SOME* religious dogma in order for the whole society to advance in medical and biological research, by all means I think we should do it. If it leads to people being more healthy and living longer lives, why shouldn't we?

I consider myself a very scientific person. I need proof before I believe pretty much anything. But ever since I studied A&P I&II in college, I myself, am convinced there is more to the story of life than evolution. How do scientists explain the creation of specialized organs and tissues like an eye. And how do they explain instinct or processes of thought? So yeah, I guess I somewhat subscribe to intelligent design, though I'm not very familiar with this theory.

[Petercat]

Love is love...

Besides, let homosexuals commit to a lifetime of nagging, b*tchng and no sex. They'll regret their decision soon enough.
The grass is always greener.

Just kidding. In case my wife reads this thread, I love my marriage. She tells me it's the best thing that has happened to me.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Imperial

do you live in a windmill and wear wooden shoes?!?!

Off course I do

I grow tulips, smoke some stuff and drink Heineken every day

Dutch government is 100% bloody bureaucracy imo, I do love my country for what is, but The Netherlands(not with homosexuals, I don't have any problems with that issue) sometimes are too tolerant in many ways. IMHO.

[BellasBmw]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Off course I do

I grow tulips, smoke some stuff and drink Heineken every day .

Wow! can i move in with you? LoL.... Im easy to get along with.