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      04-30-2019, 03:11 AM   #1
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Cheap pads for track

I am looking for a set of front pads to swap for track days. I do maybe 1-3 trackdays a year so I don't really need the best and long lasting option out there. Just don't want my rotors demolished after 10 laps.
I am thniking about getting Ferodo DS3000 or DS1.11, Hawk HT 10 or DTC70 (more expensive and I don't quite see the benefits), or PFC 06 (bimmerworld has a nice deal for $150). I am also considering EBC Yellow or blue, but not sure if these can be considered a track pad.
I also have a set of used Pagid RST3 available locally for a price of new DS3000 more or less.
After reading some info on all of the above the DS1.11 are the most appealing to me - does anyone have experience with those pads?
https://www.ferodoracing.com/product...e-pads/ds1-11/

For reference, my last trackday was on HPS 5.0 and they were braking like ass after 1-2 laps.

Also another question, my current rotors will be most likely done after one trackday and I will need new ones. Can I still use the same, used track pads on them?
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      05-08-2019, 09:37 AM   #2
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Even though they cost more, I recommend PFC 08s as they last a long time and are fairly kind on rotors, which is important even if you don't do many events per year. A cheaper and more aggressive pad may wear out your rotors after only a couple events depending on the track which ends up costing a lot more. One of the best things about the 08s is that they don't have significant issues if you do not bed them in properly so it'll be easy to switch between the 08s and your street pads.
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      05-08-2019, 09:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Even though they cost more, I recommend PFC 08s as they last a long time and are fairly kind on rotors, which is important even if you don't do many events per year. A cheaper and more aggressive pad may wear out your rotors after only a couple events depending on the track which ends up costing a lot more. One of the best things about the 08s is that they don't have significant issues if you do not bed them in properly so it'll be easy to switch between the 08s and your street pads.
Thanks for the info. So are you saying PFC 06 are more agressive on rotors? The 08 are unfortunately too pricey.
What about HT10, or Ferodos I mentioned?
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      05-08-2019, 12:21 PM   #4
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It might help to know more about your level of skill and the car (tires, suspension, etc). For a mostly stock E9x M3, or even one with different wheels and tires (e.g. an Apex wheel with something like an RE-71R), I think the DS1.11, HT-10, and DTC-70 are too aggressive. You won't get the modulation or control you need and the car will be getting into the ABS too often.

Please avoid EBC, their pads are absolute trash and I would never use them for the track. Can't even tell you how many guys I see at track days who pull their EBCs after the first session...


I would look at the DTC-60. The price is right and they have a fairly linear torque curve which should give you the control you need. PFC08 seems to be popular too but those are not cheap.

Give Dave Z at Zeckhausen Racing a call and ask for his advice. He knows his stuff, especially BMWs, and carries pretty much every pad you can imagine. I've been ordering from him for nearly a decade now and chat with him on the phone a few times a year. He does get pretty busy this time of year so leave a voicemail or just send an email instead.
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      05-08-2019, 02:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
It might help to know more about your level of skill and the car (tires, suspension, etc). For a mostly stock E9x M3, or even one with different wheels and tires (e.g. an Apex wheel with something like an RE-71R), I think the DS1.11, HT-10, and DTC-70 are too aggressive. You won't get the modulation or control you need and the car will be getting into the ABS too often.

Please avoid EBC, their pads are absolute trash and I would never use them for the track. Can't even tell you how many guys I see at track days who pull their EBCs after the first session...


I would look at the DTC-60. The price is right and they have a fairly linear torque curve which should give you the control you need. PFC08 seems to be popular too but those are not cheap.

Give Dave Z at Zeckhausen Racing a call and ask for his advice. He knows his stuff, especially BMWs, and carries pretty much every pad you can imagine. I've been ordering from him for nearly a decade now and chat with him on the phone a few times a year. He does get pretty busy this time of year so leave a voicemail or just send an email instead.
Car is stock, BBS 9" front 245, 10.5" rear 275 ps4s. My skill lol, I guess I know the basics on track driving and tend to brake rather late and agressive.
I plan on buying the ECS sealed brass bushing set if that changes something.

Thanks for the input on different pad options. I was asking about Ferodo as I can have them locally for decent money, same with EBC. Anything else I'll need to import from USA which elevates the cost, hence my limit on the purchase price. I can also have Ferodos DS3000, are those any good?

I contacted bimmerworld about the PFC 06 they have on sale now (only 150 for the fronts), they told me these would fit my application well. I am not lookin for a best performing pad, just one that will survive a 15-20 minute session and won't demolish the rotors. I read a review on a different forum and a guy who had them on his e46 M3 was very happy with durabilty and performance.
I couldn't find DTC-60 for the front.
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      05-08-2019, 07:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Car is stock, BBS 9" front 245, 10.5" rear 275 ps4s. My skill lol, I guess I know the basics on track driving and tend to brake rather late and agressive.
I plan on buying the ECS sealed brass bushing set if that changes something.

Thanks for the input on different pad options. I was asking about Ferodo as I can have them locally for decent money, same with EBC. Anything else I'll need to import from USA which elevates the cost, hence my limit on the purchase price. I can also have Ferodos DS3000, are those any good?

I contacted bimmerworld about the PFC 06 they have on sale now (only 150 for the fronts), they told me these would fit my application well. I am not lookin for a best performing pad, just one that will survive a 15-20 minute session and won't demolish the rotors. I read a review on a different forum and a guy who had them on his e46 M3 was very happy with durabilty and performance.
I couldn't find DTC-60 for the front.

I thought the DS3000 was discontinued? The DS2500 is pretty much the king of hybrid pads and might be worth considering since you're still on street tires.

DTC-60 fronts are Hawk part number HB551G.748:
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=17365

What's the pricing like for Endless or Pagid pads where you live?

Remember that the E46 in stock form is lighter and slower than an M3 so its braking demands are very different. It also has smaller tires and brakes.
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      05-09-2019, 01:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Car is stock, BBS 9" front 245, 10.5" rear 275 ps4s. My skill lol, I guess I know the basics on track driving and tend to brake rather late and agressive.
I plan on buying the ECS sealed brass bushing set if that changes something.

Thanks for the input on different pad options. I was asking about Ferodo as I can have them locally for decent money, same with EBC. Anything else I'll need to import from USA which elevates the cost, hence my limit on the purchase price. I can also have Ferodos DS3000, are those any good?

I contacted bimmerworld about the PFC 06 they have on sale now (only 150 for the fronts), they told me these would fit my application well. I am not lookin for a best performing pad, just one that will survive a 15-20 minute session and won't demolish the rotors. I read a review on a different forum and a guy who had them on his e46 M3 was very happy with durabilty and performance.
I couldn't find DTC-60 for the front.

I thought the DS3000 was discontinued? The DS2500 is pretty much the king of hybrid pads and might be worth considering since you're still on street tires.

DTC-60 fronts are Hawk part number HB551G.748:
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=17365

What's the pricing like for Endless or Pagid pads where you live?

Remember that the E46 in stock form is lighter and slower than an M3 so its braking demands are very different. It also has smaller tires and brakes.
Thanks for the link.
Pagid RS19 for example is around $500 for the front axle.
Both DS3000 and DS2500 are available and I can have the 3000 for around $190 locally, which is probably my best deal next to the PFC 06 from bimmerworld.

I'm a bit confused though. I thought you said these PFC 06 were to agressive at first, but then not to compare with e46 m3 because it has less brake demands? I have zero experience with race pads and I just wanted to be able to choose my first set well.
I drove the m3 only on HPS 5.0 so far and they faded like crap instantly and were done after 1 trackday.

If the DS3000 will survive without fading after 3-4 laps then I'd probably choose these.
If PFC 06 won't destroy the rotors, will last a lot longer and perform better, then I'd consider those.
Or maybe only DTC-60 meet my criteria? They seem to have identical optimal temp range to ds3000 though.
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      05-09-2019, 01:50 AM   #8
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probably get the ds1.11's if you don't want an aggressive race pad that is going to wear quick. are you going to swap pads for the track?
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      05-09-2019, 03:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
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probably get the ds1.11's if you don't want an aggressive race pad that is going to wear quick. are you going to swap pads for the track?
Yes, I plan to run oem textar for the street and swap it for the track with whatever I end up buying.

So finally are DS1.11 too agressive for michelin ps4s or not?
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      05-09-2019, 07:43 AM   #10
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Depends on what you like. I don't think 1.11's will be too aggressive where you'll constantly be getting into the abs.
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      05-09-2019, 07:49 AM   #11
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Depends on what you like. I don't think 1.11's will be too aggressive where you'll constantly be getting into the abs.
Cool. So DS3000 for these tyres?
If that's not something that could easily fade and get eaten quickly then I think I'd give them a go. Then after they are gone maybe go with something more agressive.
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      05-09-2019, 07:50 AM   #12
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I've never used ds3000's.
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      05-09-2019, 08:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
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I've never used ds3000's.
Ok I think I misunderstood your post.
The local shop also recommends ds 1.11 saying they would be fine. Decent price too. Seems like this would be a better alternative to the PFC 06 I was considering.
How was the durabilty and rotor wear on 1.11?
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      05-09-2019, 09:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Ok I think I misunderstood your post.
The local shop also recommends ds 1.11 saying they would be fine. Decent price too. Seems like this would be a better alternative to the PFC 06 I was considering.
How was the durabilty and rotor wear on 1.11?
The PFC 06 compound has been discontinued so not that many people have recent experience with it. Based on PFC's description, it should be fine as it was an endurance compound that was more aggressive than the PFC 08. That means take it easy the last few minutes of the session as everything might be overheating if it's a track tough on the brakes.
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      05-09-2019, 09:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
Thanks for the link.
Pagid RS19 for example is around $500 for the front axle.
Both DS3000 and DS2500 are available and I can have the 3000 for around $190 locally, which is probably my best deal next to the PFC 06 from bimmerworld.

I'm a bit confused though. I thought you said these PFC 06 were to agressive at first, but then not to compare with e46 m3 because it has less brake demands? I have zero experience with race pads and I just wanted to be able to choose my first set well.
I drove the m3 only on HPS 5.0 so far and they faded like crap instantly and were done after 1 trackday.

If the DS3000 will survive without fading after 3-4 laps then I'd probably choose these.
If PFC 06 won't destroy the rotors, will last a lot longer and perform better, then I'd consider those.
Or maybe only DTC-60 meet my criteria? They seem to have identical optimal temp range to ds3000 though.

I never said the PFC06 was too aggressive. All I said was the 08 is a popular pad but I've never used it. Perhaps my comment about the E46 was confusing. What I was attempting to convey is that reading the subjective comments from a completely different car aren't terribly useful for you in this situation. If you had other people replying to this thread with stock E92s saying the PFC06 worked well on track, that's different.

Optimal temperature range is a tricky thing. If you run a pad that's too aggressive (optimal temps higher than what you can sustain), the stopping power will suck and you'll be chewing through rotors. Without any data on your current brake temps, it's a bit of a guessing game. What I will say, and others will probably back me up on, is that a stock M3 on street tires isn't going to be able to generate the temps necessary for those endurance pads like the RS19, DS1.11, etc. This is why I recommended something a bit milder like the DTC-60. They're relatively inexpensive for us here in the US and they have a very linear torque curve which gives great control. Might be worthwhile to spend $30 or whatever on the brake temperature stickers for your calipers. That should help you for the next set -- see pic below, I finally put a set on my car.

For now I wouldn't obsess over this too much. There's plenty of good choices being recommended in this thread. Use your track time to focus on improving technique and getting comfortable enough that you can start braking later and need better tires + pads. :-)
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      05-09-2019, 10:19 AM   #16
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@dparm, your wheel okay? Why's it look like its falling apart at the end of the spoke in the pic?
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      05-09-2019, 10:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
I never said the PFC06 was too aggressive. All I said was the 08 is a popular pad but I've never used it. Perhaps my comment about the E46 was confusing. What I was attempting to convey is that reading the subjective comments from a completely different car aren't terribly useful for you in this situation. If you had other people replying to this thread with stock E92s saying the PFC06 worked well on track, that's different.

Optimal temperature range is a tricky thing. If you run a pad that's too aggressive (optimal temps higher than what you can sustain), the stopping power will suck and you'll be chewing through rotors. Without any data on your current brake temps, it's a bit of a guessing game. What I will say, and others will probably back me up on, is that a stock M3 on street tires isn't going to be able to generate the temps necessary for those endurance pads like the RS19, DS1.11, etc. This is why I recommended something a bit milder like the DTC-60.
Thanks for the clarification. I admit I didn't know much about pad compounds so such information is very helpful. I agree different cars with different tyres have different demands - I was completely fine in my previous e92 325i with OEM pads on r comp yokohamas. Whereas the HPS 5.0 faded immediately in the M3 even though I had mediocre street front tyres that time.

About the temperature - I can see that HPS 5.0 start falling on their face at around 400°C, so we can safely assume that I exceed this temperature. I read some specs of the ds 1.11 and they are said to be performing optimally starting at just 200-250°C. They have a relatively low Mu of 0.46 on average, which is fairly lower than Hawk DTC-60 that you suggested, so (if we can trust all these sheets) it seems the ds 1.11 aren't all that crazy. Please correct me if I got something wrong
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      05-09-2019, 10:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
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@dparm, your wheel okay? Why's it look like its falling apart at the end of the spoke in the pic?
Those are chunks of tire from track usage. Happens all the time.
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      05-09-2019, 11:01 AM   #19
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I have been told by several suppliers that you cannot directly compare those mu vs. temperature charts between manufacturers. The testing isn't always consistent and there's lots of tricks that can be used to pad the values. They're useful as an approximation within the same manufacturer.

Too high of a mu value and you will cause the brakes to lock and the ABS to intervene. Too low of a mu value and you won't use the tires' full grip. What's the common thread here? Tires. Brakes don't stop the car, tires do. This is a slight oversimplification, but once you're into the ABS (or the tires are skidding), your tires are the limiting factor, not the brakes.

BTW, to answer your original question, yes, you can use your existing rotors. Just bed the new pads in:
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i...Path=6446_6443
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      05-09-2019, 12:57 PM   #20
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My bad, I see it now, looks like concave pitting if you look at it a different way. Bit of an optical illusion.


Quote:
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Those are chunks of tire from track usage. Happens all the time.
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      05-09-2019, 03:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
I've never used ds3000's.
Ok I think I misunderstood your post.
The local shop also recommends ds 1.11 saying they would be fine. Decent price too. Seems like this would be a better alternative to the PFC 06 I was considering.
How was the durabilty and rotor wear on 1.11?
1.11's were decent, but I like a higher bite, high torque pad. I kept squeezing the brake pedal at threshold braking looking for more torque and it wasn't there, it was just triggering the abs.
If you use too aggressive of a pad with street tires, you're going to get into the abs too often. A lot of this is going to depend on the track conditions and driving style outside of tire and pad choice.

Take a look at cobalt friction. They make great pads at a reasonable price as well. I was very happy with their service.
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      05-09-2019, 06:32 PM   #22
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Thanks for all the answers. I think I learned what I needed and now I need to gain some experience to become aware which combination works best for me. This is my first set of track pads so it's hard to predict anything at this point, but I guess I've learnt the basics. I'll test out the 1.11 this year and make it my reference point, since so far I don't really have one. I can have them locally and it really seems as the best option as far as the specs and feedback go.
About cobalt fiction - we must have a different definition of affordable, $360 for one axle is not something I'd call so at least haha.
I'll comment on my experience with the Ferodos after i try them out, thanks everyone once again!
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