Test drove '17 Porsche 911 Carrera & BMW M4

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by The-Traveler

It's a beautiful and sunny day up here in the North East. I'm in Toronto, Canada.
Because the weather is so nice I decided, quite spontaneously, to grab one of my car friends (chipped 335 e90) and to test drive some cars.

I've been trying to convince him to get an E92 M3 for years, and his whole rebuttal has always been, no I would prefer a Porsche. Not really a rebuttal given the price difference, but I suppose there's an element of friendly rivalry there.

After all of these years I finally dragged him to the dealership.

Obviously the customer service experience was excellent because it's a very premium brand. You get free drinks and snacks. They have one of the top tiered Nespresso machines with disks (instead of pods), and little Porsche branded napkins to match. Oh, and a well dressed bartender.

This is all well and good, but it took almost one hour before we were in a car. Something about calling ahead.

After much walking around and drooling, they put us into a 2017 Carrera, NON-S. It's 375ish HP, much lighter than my E92 M3 (low 3000-3100 pound range I think.)

Both of us were quite impressed with the car. It's way lower than the E92 M3, way lower. Once you sit inside you realize how driver oriented, and tight the cabin is. Everything feels incredibly intimate, high quality soft touch surfaces (leather wrapped,) and a dash that is quite low to give you excellent visibility up front. I can't say the same for the rearview mirror, the visibility was below average, but it wasn't a big deal.

I really liked the paddle shifters on this car compared to my own, because they felt a little easier to click. The chassis felt incredibly composed and it wasn't a world apart from my M3 but it was substantially more immediate because of the weight difference.

The performance was really good. While I was asking for a naturally aspirated engine, all of the new 2017 are Turbo and so we were out of luck there. Even though it was a turbo the exhaust sounded pretty decent. No where near the S65 character, but it was louder and had a good burble and pop on deceleration.

The test drive was short, but I did gun it once and it was very linear and torquey. Definitely felt faster than the M3. I'm only saying that because most of my car's life is spent under 7,000 RPM where it really shines. In a race the M might take it, who knows.

The PDK felt crisper than the DCT and the gauge cluster, although analog was quicker than the E92 one so it felt better than it does in the M3. Probably with GTS tune it would match the PDK.

Overall the Porsche felt like an upgrade. That being said $120K or $140K (Canadian.) it wasn't 3x better than my $45,000 car. (2011 DCT)

Shortly after this we went down the road to BMW. After being greeted by a very nice lady, and having some generic coffee (not that it matters ) we were in a car within 15 minutes.

Within those 15 minutes we checked out the new 5 series which I have to say isn't really better looking that it's predecessor. But I digress.

Also, we sat in an I8 which was an amazing experience.

After our brief wait the M4 was here. It was a DCT model with all of the connected drive options and no extended leather.

We were introduced to a young guy who was going to show us the car. He was very nice and relaxed and I decided he should drive first. My friend would ride shotgun and I would sit in the back.

As I opened the passenger door and went to pull the seat forward I couldn't really get to it easily because the B pillar was in the way and the seat was too far back. After some hard pulling and an awkward angle I managed to pull it forward. No only is the handle in a worse spot, but the < > buttons are on the back. This makes it awkward and not-intuitive for first time passengers to perform this procedure. On the E92 it's on the top where it should be!

Anyway once that was over with, I sat in the back. Going from a Fox Red E92 Coupe, into a 2017 M4 coupe, it immediately felt smaller out back. I didn't take measurements, but it felt worse. The centre console was less elaborate, the side arm rests were smaller and everything just felt significantly less premium. Some part of that might have been the black interior.

Being drive around felt good and smooth but there was nothing in the back of this 100,000 dollar car to suggest that it was anything more special than a Camry.

Once the sales guy took a spin, it was my friend's turn. During the swap I went up to the passenger seat. From here I immediately noticed that everything felt super plasticky and cheap. The nice E92 coupe door compartments that are wrapped in fake suede and even have ridges to hold smaller items. GONE! Instead an ugly hole where a drink might fit. The same hole that is on every other car.

The dashboard felt okay except that the plastic texturing just screamed cheap. Don't get me wrong this same plastic is on the E92 but yet somehow it isn't so pronounced. On the E92 there is a long bar which goes across with Carbon Leather and a bit of stitching which soft of increases the percieved quality level.

The screen and IDrive looked nice. The cup holder, while technically better than the E92, in that they don't soak their passenger, were ugly. I can't hide them, I just have to stare at them all of the time. They look like every other car on the market, and every similar to my 2001 Neon. The first car I ever owned.

The sun visors were the same cheap Vinyl that is on my 2011 M3. I understand penny pinching took effect after the 2010 MY. However, opening up the visor leads to this super cheap white, plastic LED light. Not a big deal, but it's the same quality as what they carry in the dollar store.

Before we even set off, there was a glaring flaw. The little arm that hands your seat belt on the E92. It isn't there! Does it sometimes screw up? YES. Does it help grab the seatbelt when the B pillar is far away, UNDENIABLY. Not only was it missing, the B pillar felt further back than on the E92.

I know some of you guys rip on this feature, but it's useful, and shows that someone was thinking about you when they designed the car. The design and materials of that arm on the E92 are no where to be found on the new cars.

While my friend drove, I felt a lot of torque and the car was undeniably faster than the E92. That being said, it sounded like garbage.

After a brief drive, it was my turn.

From the driver's perspective the cabin was an upgrade over the E92. The gauges looked better and it felt newer and more modern. However, the centre console still didn't really impress. It felt like a normal car, wheres the E92 with Nav, Carbon Leather with stitching, and the taller dash, it feels more muscular and less average. Probably I wouldn't be complaining if the M4 has a stitched dash, which I know is an option.

As I set off to drive, it felt very similar to the E92. The paddles were nicer, the chassis was the same, the steering albeit electric, was decent. It didn't communicate quite as well as the E92 but it was well weighted to simulate the effect.

One aspect that I really enjoyed was the Heads Up Display. It was very bright, crisp and in the perfect spot.

While gunning it a couple of times, there's no doubt that the car was fast! That being said, I set it up in the same M profile which I use in the E92 and the super exotic downshifts that I'm used to, sounded like absolute garbage in the M4. It sounded like a poorly tuned up 335, and not special. On several downshifts my friend and I both made disgusted faces. Not only did it sound bad, but we could hear it on the speakers and that made it worse.

While the Porsche was turbo, it sounded SO MUCH BETTER! The M4 was simply a droney bass note, meanwhile the S65 is a Tenor Saxophone.

With an intake, the downshifts on a DCT S65 put a smile on my face every day and anyone around knows that the car is special. If you drive one every day, you might get bored after a while but trust me, unless you get into an Italian Exotic, or a Porsche, you will be downgrading your car.

Sure you next car might have lane departure warning, and blind spot detection so you can text and not crash, but if it's a BMW or anything short of Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc... it will be a step back.

I really wanted to like the M4 but it felt less special, less expensive, less thought out. While it was faster, it didn't feel anywhere near as cool.

Over all the 911 felt like an upgrade in every way, expect for the exhaust tone. But it was pretty good.

The M4 felt like a downgrade in every way, except the Navigation system. (NBT EVO, etc.)

Sorry for the long rant. Congrats for making it down this far.

Driving the S65 back home, made me appreciate its character so much more than I have in a very long time.

100% agree with you. We have two e92M3's. I have been looking for a car for myself after giving my mint 09 to my boy and so I wanted very badly to like a brand new M4. Cannot believe the effort of BMW. The new M3/4 has no emotion, no visceral connection between machine and driver. And the exhaust note is just horrible. No matter how badly I wanted to like the M4, I just could not. So, for the first time in 20 years I bought a car that is not a BMW, a 2015 Porsche Cayman GTS.

[tottoro]

please make this viral so my car is worth more =D

[djt511]

And thats why i purchased a M6 (coming from an e92 m3) . BTW I disagree on the Porsche feeling faster. Test drove a 911 Carrera S and even that felt slower than my e92 M3, although more nimble and carried more prestege!

[New2Roundel]

I would certainly hope that a brand new 911 would feel better than a generation old M3! However, when looking at the 997 cars, which were out at the same time as the e9x cars, I personally did not feel that the car was that much nicer than our cars. The brake feel was spectacular, but that's about it. I thought the car was far too subdued for what I was expecting from a 911. I'm guessing that in order to get the edge I was hoping for I'd need to get something aircooled or GTS/GT series 997. I have no regrets passing on the 997.

Now the 991 may be a completely different beast, especially with the turbo motor.

[freeman727]

Although I bought a 991.2 C4S with PDK, I will be keeping my E90 M3 with DCT. I can tell you when I am speeding through a twisty, I do not think about engine sound. Engine sound matters when when I WOT in a straight line. The glued down feeling around corners in a 911 should be something experienced! The E90 M3 wins in engine sound, seating and luggage space, and entry and exit. The 911 seating position feels at least 6 inches lower (this coming from a 5'6" guy). I'm lucky to have both!!

[REDEV217342]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I would certainly hope that a brand new 911 would feel better than a generation old M3! However, when looking at the 997 cars, which were out at the same time as the e9x cars, I personally did not feel that the car was that much nicer than our cars. The brake feel was spectacular, but that's about it. I thought the car was far too subdued for what I was expecting from a 911. I'm guessing that in order to get the edge I was hoping for I'd need to get something aircooled or GTS/GT series 997. I have no regrets passing on the 997.

Now the 991 may be a completely different beast, especially with the turbo motor.

Having owned two 997 version 911's (997S and 997 Turbo), the 997S is nothing special at all. The 997 Turbo, while more special than the 997S, was not worth the $145K price tag to me. The E92M3 is a much better bang for your buck with a much better sound.

Today's E92M3 is the Cobra GT350.....fantastic machine. Would take the GT350 over a 991 too. Only 911's that really appear special to me are the GT variants and they are stupidly priced.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Rajmun340

"I understand penny pinching took effect after the 2010 MY"

Big time cuts and restructurations took place at BMW in 2010 following the 2009 bansksters market crash (about when they were getting into designing the M4 powerplant). It marked the end of the M division's autonomy in designing bespoke engines (S65, S85). It is also around that time that the massive M brand dillution exploded , no doubt an aggressively planned marketing trick to liquidate whatever value had been accumulated in the M division logo, with total disregard for owners of actual M cars. In Germany M car owners tend to be more subdued and some would rather option 'delete' the M distinctive logo to go stealthy but it is totally the opposite in the USA were people want their M logo conspicuous and messing around the M logo to confuse and win customers is negatively perceived by the M cars buyers segment.


" It sounded like a poorly tuned up 335"
It is (!) a tuned up very mildly modified 335 N55 engine with a Mitsubishi bi-turbo ( hello japanese cars !)

"we could hear it on the speakers "

That BMW persisted with that fake engine sound chip in the cabin says something about their lack of faith in the S55 engine. You'd think they'd On/Off optioned it after the despised , dejected reaction it got all across the board, but no. Got to be some German stubborness to persist against general reprobation

"While the Porsche was turbo it sounded SO MUCH BETTER!"

the m4 would probably win award for worst sounding turbo car over $75k (GT-R, Porsche, Mercedes) if there was one.

"a droney bass note"
the infamous lazy cow mow.

"The M4 felt like a downgrade in every way, except the Navigation system. (NBT EVO, etc.) "

You got that right. How could they possibly make an upgrade starting from an N55 engine (335i), 3.0 liters with only minimal changes and slapping a mitsubishi biturbo on it + doing cuts in interior materials and processes. As we know speed is not that important, character is. The M4 ranks behind the V8 M3 in character and has no long lasting effect to make up for it.

The 2018 M5 will be 4WD with controls to decouple the front differential to make it RWD. Engine will be 4.0 liter turbo. From that you can infer that the next M3/4 will be 4WD (12 years lagging behind the GT-R !!) probably 3.2-3.4 liters coupled with an electric engine hybridation. The E92 is bound to become a legendary model as its *positive* differentiation will only accentuate with age. The F8x M4 on the other hand will have a very hard time being only similar but not as good as the next turbo engine.

The E9x M3 will eventually become more valuable and desirable than the F8x M4/3, I have no doubt about it.

Your “facts” about the S55 are way off. I agree the e92 is better but no need for the hyperbole.

[baege]

Enjoyed this review as a fellow canuck. I can relate to the sentiments. I have test driven 15 or so cars in the last 3 months in an effort to replace my 2016 Cayman S but nothing has stirred me. The trend towards turbos and non-manual s creating lots of cars that look good but lack soul.

The first time I drove the a 981S I was grinning from ear to ear and immediately wanted one... can't seem to find that feeling again, closest was a 2016 F type coupe awd r, but again non-manual

[crawlin]

The M4 may fall short in a few areas but is a more capable car in every way, its cheaper to make faster and will roll an e92 stock to stock. The interior is nicer, the brakes are better, it's lighter than the e92, it has a whole lot more torque which makes it a much nicer DD as far as just merging or etc .

I do own an E93 so I should be biased towards it but I would much rather have an M4, the E93 doesnt feel as smooth as the m4, the interior seems way dated since its basically a decade old, interior materials aren't any better than the m4 at all, the mpg is horrible just horrible I cant break 20mpg no matter how i drive, steering wheel is well worn after only 50k miles, dct trans is nice but m4 is better.

Only real thing I like better is the motor sound and the e93/92 has some cleaner body lines.

If driven back to back you'd be hard pressed to say the E92 is a better car in anyway other than the sound the S65 makes when flying to redline.

[cmo_93]

I think the f8x looks amazing and I genuinely wish I liked it more but I feel it's more of a nice daily driver than an exhilarating weekend warrior.

I've come to the conclusion that, for me, the only way to improve upon everything I love about my car, I'll have to go GT3... if I can't then it's gonna be some kinda Porsche either way unless the new M3 is much better

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by crawlin

If driven back to back you'd be hard pressed to say the E92 is a better car in anyway other than the sound the S65 makes when flying to redline.

Well, I disagree after having done exactly that with a ZCP F82.

E90:
Better throttle response/lack of lag
Better steering feel
More predictable handling at the limit
Less complicated/busy interior
Far better sound

I still don't have a sedan replacement in mind that I look forward to replacing the E90 with. Yeah the F8x is faster and more modern, but that's mostly just on paper X > Y stuff. That's not what makes a great car. Otherwise a Camry V6 would be considered a better car than a Jaguar E-Type.

[JackieChiles]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Well, I disagree after having done exactly that with a ZCP F82.

E90:
Better throttle response/lack of lag
Better steering feel
More predictable handling at the limit
Less complicated/busy interior
Far better sound

I still don't have a sedan replacement in mind that I look forward to replacing the E90 with. Yeah the F8x is faster and more modern, but that's mostly just on paper X > Y stuff. That's not what makes a great car. Otherwise a Camry V6 would be considered a better car than a Jaguar E-Type.

I agree with all of your list except the interior. To me the f8x interior is much better due to how much better the seats are and how much lower and better the seating position is. Aesthetically I like both and both feel modern.

The f8x is way faster obviously and one big difference I noticed is how much quicker and smoother the dct is in the new car. Maybe a dct tune helps bridge this gap, but I can't say for sure. The f8x feels way quicker and smoother on shifts.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by JackieChiles

I agree with all of your list except the interior. To me the f8x interior is much better due to how much better the seats are and how much lower and better the seating position is. Aesthetically I like both and both feel modern.

The f8x is way faster obviously and one big difference I noticed is how much quicker and smoother the dct is in the new car. Maybe a dct tune helps bridge this gap, but I can't say for sure. The f8x feels way quicker and smoother on shifts.

I have manual seats... I think you might be able to get them lower than the power ones? Not sure. Either way, I didn't notice a difference. And I'm an MT die-hard so the latter doesn't apply to me.

[crawlin]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Well, I disagree after having done exactly that with a ZCP F82.

E90:
Better throttle response/lack of lag
Better steering feel
More predictable handling at the limit
Less complicated/busy interior
Far better sound

I still don't have a sedan replacement in mind that I look forward to replacing the E90 with. Yeah the F8x is faster and more modern, but that's mostly just on paper X > Y stuff. That's not what makes a great car. Otherwise a Camry V6 would be considered a better car than a Jaguar E-Type.

M4 has very little lag its literally praised for it in reviews and the s65 isnt super torquey as the power only builds as the revs do, M4 from a roll would destroy an e92. steering feel is an opinion. I can predict both cars and cant really make that statement after driving an m4 for a short trip and comparing that to a car you drive daily. e92 interior is far dated and is less busy since its just not as nice, my Z4M interior was nicer and simpler and held up way better, e93 interior just falls short and seats suck for holding you in. sound for sure yes i agree that v8 hum is awesome. your camry/jaguar comparison makes no sense to me.

I think people cant put there bias aside, M4 is just better car and Id trade UP in a minute.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by crawlin

M4 has very little lag its literally praised for it in reviews and the s65 isnt super torquey as the power only builds as the revs do, M4 from a roll would destroy an e92. steering feel is an opinion. I can predict both cars and cant really make that statement after driving an m4 for a short trip and comparing that to a car you drive daily. e92 interior is far dated and is less busy since its just not as nice, my Z4M interior was nicer and simpler and held up way better, e93 interior just falls short and seats suck for holding you in. sound for sure yes i agree that v8 hum is awesome. your camry/jaguar comparison makes no sense to me.

I think people cant put there bias aside, M4 is just better car and Id trade UP in a minute.

All biases aside...

I had an M4, lowered with aftermarket exhaust and tuned. Loved the look of it. And it was really fast.

But the sound, I just couldn't get over it. And it rode rougher than my lowered E93.

Someone offered me a ton of money, so I sold it in a heartbeat. And barely missed it....except for the look of it (my tanzanite blue was super sexy, especially with my sandstone interior).

But every drive in my E93 is special, because it sounds so much better. And I like my E93 seats too.

I'll take my E93 any day over the M4. The V8 just sounds mesmerizing to me, worth every penny.

I like speeding, but I realize that pure speed over an intoxicating sound wasn't a good trade off for me. Hec, if I wanted the ultimate in speed, I would have bought a Corvette Z06.....but even though that car is loud & ferocious as hell, it doesn't sound all that great either. It's almost too much racket, just loud, no sexiness. The old LS7 sounded better.

The handling of the M4 was much higher, but with that turbo motor, it was harder to drive fast, for me. Even on the track, you had to be careful with the throttle. My E93 is more forgiving, and easier for me to control and drive fast...and I like that. I trust the E93 more, even with all its weight.

Yes, the E9X interior is showing its age, but I have a loaded 2013, and it's pretty nice in its own right.

Ultimately, for a performance car that I drive on long trips, I just couldn't get over how rough my M4 rode, coupled with that uninspired engine note. At WOT, it was fine, but I didn't spend enough time at WOT for it to matter. Even at low speeds, my E93 just sounds nice....everyone who rides in the car notices immediately. In my M4, everyone loved how it looked inside and out. That's what I miss most....that body, and that white interior.

[Redd]

I realized a long time ago that there will always be a faster car. So chasing numbers gets a bit pointless after a while.

But there won't always be a car that feels special. The S65 in the E9x M3 feels special.

[Big Block Mopar]

OP, interesting review of your test drives. I sold my F80 due to the lack of emotion, "M-ness", or whatever that tingly thing is that hits you when you drive the previous generations. Shortly after selling it, my wife wanted something else, so I took her to drive a lightly used 991.1 CS. She got out of it and said "eh, it's a great car, but it doesn't have what I'm looking for".

From the look in her eye, I knew what she wanted. I found a 2 year old C7 Z07 pkg Z06, with 600 miles on it and bought it for $40k less than MSRP. She absolutely loved it. It was fast, comfortable, far superior interior to my old C6 and was beautiful (Shark Grey, w/ red interior and Comp seats). We had it for a year, not one issue and we thoroughly enjoyed it. She was driving that and a '17 Hellcat Charger, which she still has, so she's ok for now.

Back to the M3. I'm now looking for a ZCP E92 for some of the same reasons you stated. I think it's the best package in quite some time. Numbers aren't everything, hell you could turbocharge a stop sign and run 10s... There is so much more to enjoyment than just straight line speed. The FXX M's are great cars, but I don't think they're great M cars. They've been diluted, sign of the times, I guess.


Regards,
John

[KPop]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

Having owned two 997 version 911's (997S and 997 Turbo), the 997S is nothing special at all. The 997 Turbo, while more special than the 997S, was not worth the $145K price tag to me. The E92M3 is a much better bang for your buck with a much better sound.

Today's E92M3 is the Cobra GT350.....fantastic machine. Would take the GT350 over a 991 too. Only 911's that really appear special to me are the GT variants and they are stupidly priced.

Agree with you here. While I haven't owned a 997S or Turbo, I've driven many of them (996 Turbo, 997 Turbo, 997.1 S, 991.1 4S). Aside from the Turbo model's very fun torque, I didn't find these 911 models particularly exciting to drive. They just didn't give me that tingly feeling when I'm driving something truly special. I like cars that are very focused and make me work hard, and sometimes literally sweat, for the performance. The aforementioned 911's are a bit too refined and easy to drive fast and that made the drive seem a bit boring. Same feeling I got in the F80 M3 and M4's I drove.

If I ever got a 911, it would need to be a manual 997 GT3RS or an air cooled 930 or 964 Turbo. But for significantly less money, there are many other cars I'd consider first, including the Shelby GT350.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by KPop

Agree with you here. While I haven't owned a 997S or Turbo, I've driven many of them (996 Turbo, 997 Turbo, 997.1 S, 991.1 4S). Aside from the Turbo model's very fun torque, I didn't find these 911 models particularly exciting to drive. They just didn't give me that tingly feeling when I'm driving something truly special. I like cars that are very focused and make me work hard, and sometimes literally sweat, for the performance. The aforementioned 911's are a bit too refined and easy to drive fast and that made the drive seem a bit boring. Same feeling I got in the F80 M3 and M4's I drove.

If I ever got a 911, it would need to be a manual 997 GT3RS or an air cooled 930 or 964 Turbo. But for significantly less money, there are many other cars I'd consider first, including the Shelby GT350.

Interesting enough, you don't have to work too hard to exact maximum performance out of a Shelby GT350 ...and they sound amazing.

Yes, the 911s are almost too good at times, almost too serene. But I love them nonetheless, especially the 991. I'll be looking for a used 911GTS in a few years, saving my pennies now for it. It's the perfect mix for me....silly fast, but almost imperceptibly so....and it handles almost telepathically. I love it. The 911 engine note still isn't all that thrilling to me until you're at or near WOT, which basically requires a track.....but I'd be willing to live with it.

F8X platform feels nothing like a 911, though they're both fast and have great handling capabilities. But the 911 is more controllable, and more usable on the street. And then when you want to just cruise around, it's pretty damn comfortable...and quiet. For me, someone who likes to take long trips, this dual-character is ideal for me.

[robertg]

Amazing how the E92 guys trash the F80/F82 guys and the E46 guys trash the E92 guys.

The point is you don't like the newer M's. I get it. But do we need a War and Peace post?

Be happy with you got. Only losers trash something they don't have.

[The-Traveler]

Originally Posted by spmd11

100% agree with you. We have two e92M3's. I have been looking for a car for myself after giving my mint 09 to my boy and so I wanted very badly to like a brand new M4. Cannot believe the effort of BMW. The new M3/4 has no emotion, no visceral connection between machine and driver. And the exhaust note is just horrible. No matter how badly I wanted to like the M4, I just could not. So, for the first time in 20 years I bought a car that is not a BMW, a 2015 Porsche Cayman GTS.

Hahaha, so what happened to your Cayman?! I see an M4 in the sig.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by robertg

Amazing how the E92 guys trash the F80/F82 guys and the E46 guys trash the E92 guys.

The point is you don't like the newer M's. I get it. But do we need a War and Peace post?

Be happy with you got. Only losers trash something they don't have.

Taking it pretty hard that people call the F series out for what it is? Take note tho cause many of us “losers” owned them already and came back.