Official S65 Rod Bearing Condition Example Thread

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by gorrerjm

22K miles, with about 2k at the track....was going to run my oil analysis to start questioning the BE replacement. think it is time?

Ill post pictures of the bearings in a couple days.

What year is your M3? And did you open up the filter to check the shavings?
If its copper or lead its easy to tell.

[gorrerjm]

its a 2013....which means no copper...

Assuming from the amount of metal flakes I went with BE replacements

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by gorrerjm

its a 2013....which means no copper...

Assuming from the amount of metal flakes I went with BE replacements

if you saw metal shavings and shiny flakes in the oil filter, yup that means something is wearing!

[Richbot]

3/2008 build 6MT E90 with 102,400 miles. First few changes were 10w60 at 7500 intervals (through warranty basically) then switched at 58000 to 0w40 and 5w40 oils on a shorter interval, 6k ish.

The car has been on track and did two and a half seasons of relatively heavy autocross. Most of the autocrossing happened between 30k and 50k, track stuff was scattered around. Drive it hard enough that I wore out the DSC off button at 68,000 miles, but also sees a lot of regular commuting and highway miles. Driven year-round except when there is salt on the ground, usually started in the morning in climate-controlled garage but starting conditions for the drive home are all up to the weather. STL ranges from 0 degrees to infinity degrees

Blackstone was ~6-8ppm lead until 6,000 mile change with 6500 on the oil, popped up to 20ppm. Changed again 4500 miles later, 21ppm. No change in copper on the analysis, copper always around 2ppm.

Replaced with BE/ARP at 102,400 miles. Did not DIY, rolled the dice with a shop who had done it before and glad I did I 'd still be taking it apart right now.

Not the worst in the thread by a long shot, but it's amazing the difference in drag on a fingernail between the tin (wait am I are dumb is this nickel between lead and copper?) and lead. Some were juuuuust starting to show some copper color at the most worn center of the wear spot. And it's doubly amazing how much copper is showing around the part lines on the uppers(? 713x stamps are uppers right?). Gah.

[doogee]

Originally Posted by Richbot

3/2008 build 6MT E90 with 102,400 miles. First few changes were 10w60 at 7500 intervals (through warranty basically) then switched at 58000 to 0w40 and 5w40 oils on a shorter interval, 6k ish.

This is a perfect example showing that people switching to different oils (0w40 etc) has no benefit whatsoever.

Glad to see you got yours swapped!

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by doogee

This is a perfect example showing that people switching to different oils (0w40 etc) has no benefit whatsoever.

Glad to see you got yours swapped!

What? This engine has 102,400 miles on it and these look quite a bit better than some with half or 1/4 the mileage? It’s not proof of anything other than you are not safe just because you switch oils. Which we knew already. Whether it helped get me this far is unknowable. But lead dropped when i switched. So if anything, we know on this engine that about halfway through the life of the original bearings a switch to a thinner oil was made and it ran great for another 40k before the bearings started to shed lead faster than average.

What we don’t know is if it helped or not. We don’t know that there was no benefit. No way to tell. Maybe we’re saying the same thing but i think it’s disingenuous to conclude no benefit where nothing conclusive is found

On a sortof unrelated note i forgot how much longer it seems to take the TWS to warm up. Holy hell. Still planning to use it for first couple changes so i can get a somewhat apples to apples comparison with the brand new motor’s reports

[pbonsalb]

Plus, we have no idea how much of the wear occurred with 10W60 and how much with 0W40 or 5W40. Some theorize the wear occurs early and then pretty much stops since the wear has then added the necessary clearance. I don't necessarily agree with that either, but it's one of several theories.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Plus, we have no idea how much of the wear occurred with 10W60 and how much with 0W40 or 5W40. Some theorize the wear occurs early and then pretty much stops since the wear has then added the necessary clearance. I don't necessarily agree with that either, but it's one of several theories.

I think these look like there was progressively increasing wear. There are a couple small spots on the uppers that look like they just started, some look to me like two smaller wear spots eventually joined up , and others in some stage of the same process

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by doogee

This is a perfect example showing that people switching to different oils (0w40 etc) has no benefit whatsoever.

To me it demonstrated the opposite, that all the bs about anything other than 10w-60 being bad for the motor isn't true.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Richbot

I think these look like there was progressively increasing wear. There are a couple small spots on the uppers that look like they just started, some look to me like two smaller wear spots eventually joined up , and others in some stage of the same process

Maybe the initial wear happened by 3k miles with a little more at 5k and it was pretty much done by 7k. We really don't know. It's a theory. I changed my bearings at 60k and no longer worry, but I'll do them again around 120k.

[Peertwelve]

Hi team - below are shots of my rod bearings removed after 39k miles, 2008 E92 M3. I can see copper showing on #8, and some strange scratches / pits on #4. My Blackstone reports jumped from 3 to 12 to 30 (ppm lead) this year. How close did i come to bearing failure? Thanks all!

Second owner, purchased 7/2014 @ 11,000 miles
Always use stock oil every 7500 miles
About 10 road track days and 2 car control clinics

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Peertwelve

Hi team - below are shots of my rod bearings removed after 39k miles, 2008 E92 M3. I can see copper showing on #8, and some strange scratches / pits on #4. My Blackstone reports jumped from 3 to 12 to 30 (ppm lead) this year. How close did i come to bearing failure? Thanks all!

How close ? I'm pretty sure you caught the situation on time . Good job man !

Note: Scratches are caused by lack of lubrication and contamination in your oil.

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by Peertwelve

Hi team - below are shots of my rod bearings removed after 39k miles, 2008 E92 M3. I can see copper showing on #8, and some strange scratches / pits on #4. My Blackstone reports jumped from 3 to 12 to 30 (ppm lead) this year. How close did i come to bearing failure? Thanks all!

Looks exactly like my 2009 M3 with 35k miles. Good job on changing them. I did mine too, better safe than sorry!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

How close ? I'm pretty sure you caught the situation on time . Good job man !

Note: Scratches are caused by lack of lubrication and contamination in your oil.

What mileage are you at Phil, and when do you plan to change? Found a good shop around?

[Scharbag]

Here are my bearing results (will update photo to show all 8 sets once complete):

Car info:

2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP
Dinan tune (8600 RPM redline - PO said he enjoyed it often)
Dinan: 4:10 diff, exhaust, intake, throttle bodies, under drive pulley
31,400 KM (19,511 miles - 27,400KM PO)
Never tracked or winter driven
Oil changed every 5000KM to 8000KM (10W60 TWS)

Replacement parts used: BE standard with BE ARP bolts (green plastigauge showed just less than 0.002" clearance when installed)

First off, the internals of the engine look immaculate (cleanest used engine I have ever worked on):



Factory bearings were 088/089 type:



Here are the bearings. Top right is #1, top left is #5. Bottom shells are on the left:



These are pretty clean bearings for an S65 I think (scratches on 4 and 6 are from my fingernails when removing the shell - oops). But that should be expected with only 20K miles on the clock. Well, really, no wear should be evident at 20K miles... The top shell from #2 had some strange streaks but I think it is just manufacturing variance as you cannot feel it at all.

When disassembling, it seemed that #3 took less torque to loosen the factory hardware. Not a fan of the factory hardware, too many chances to mess up.

Cheers,

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

What mileage are you at Phil, and when do you plan to change? Found a good shop around?

Nik, I have 54K km on it . Most of us know that my ears are very well trained as for ticking noise detection.
For the moment my car is already stored for the coming winter in Belgium.
Once warmed up , she runs very smooth and for the moment I don't fear bearing failure . At least I hope so..because the blown engine thread shows it otherwise !

When the day comes that a bearing replacement is required , I will let the job done only by a S65 bearing specialist in Germany .
His name is Mork (Fahrzeugtechnik Mork in Rockenhausen) and he is ///M specialist => https://www.der-bmw-spezialist.de/m-...mw-m3-e90-s65/
His price for the job looks good as well..

Mork is like Malek in the US . They did the S65 bearing job probably 100 + times . And that is what I call knowledge !
I believe (I'm pretty sure) that for a bearing replacement serious S65 knowledge is required !
I trust zero BMW/Dealers , because like usual they screw up...

I still cannot believe that a bearing replacement is a DIY on Bimmerpost .

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Here are my bearing results (will update photo to show all 8 sets once complete):

Car info:

2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP
Dinan tune (8600 RPM redline - PO said he enjoyed it often)
Dinan: 4:10 diff, exhaust, intake, throttle bodies, under drive pulley
31,400 KM (19,511 miles - 27,400KM PO)
Never tracked or winter driven
Oil changed every 5000KM to 8000KM (10W60 TWS)

Replacement parts used: BE standard with BE ARP bolts (green plastigauge showed just less than 0.002" clearance when installed)

First off, the internals of the engine look immaculate (cleanest used engine I have ever worked on):



Factory bearings were 088/089 type:



Here are the first 6 sets of bearings (1,2,3,5,6,7). Top right is #1, top left is #5. Bottom shells are on the left.



These are pretty clean bearings for an S65 I think (scratches on 6 top are from my fingernails when removing the shell - oops). But that should be expected with only 20K miles on the clock. Well, really, no wear should be evident at 20K miles... The top shell from #2 had some strange streaks but I think it is just manufacturing variance as you cannot feel it at all.

When disassembling, it seemed that #3 took less torque to loosen the factory hardware. Not a fan of the factory hardware, too many chances to mess up.

Cheers,

Yes . Your bearings look actually good . You could run another 31K km with them .
It's nice to see , S65 bearings with less of wear ..

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Nik, I have 54K km on it . Most of us know that my ears are very well trained as for ticking noise detection.
For the moment my car is already stored for the coming winter in Belgium.
Once warmed up , she runs very smooth and for the moment I don't fear bearing failure . At least I hope so..because the blown engine thread shows it otherwise !

When the day comes that a bearing replacement is required , I will let the job done only by a S65 bearing specialist in Germany .
His name is Mork (Fahrzeugtechnik Mork in Rockenhausen) and he is ///M specialist => https://www.der-bmw-spezialist.de/m-...mw-m3-e90-s65/
His price for the job looks good as well..

Mork is like Malek in the US . They did the S65 bearing job probably 100 + times . And that is what I call knowledge !
I believe (I'm pretty sure) that for a bearing replacement serious S65 knowledge is required !
I trust zero BMW/Dealers , because like usual they screw up...

I still cannot believe that a bearing replacement is a DIY on Bimmerpost .

My german is so-so Phil, is that 1350 Euro for the RB job??

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

My german is so-so Phil, is that 1350 Euro for the RB job??

Yes Nik ,and they measure up the crank as well .
Sealings , new bearings , bolts ,oil filter, and oil change included with Castrol 10W60.
Actually the price is really cheap..

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yes Nik ,and they measure up the crank as well .
Sealings , new bearings , bolts ,oil filter, and oil change included with Castrol 10W60.
Actually the price is really cheap..

Wow, thats an incredible good price Phil! Can you see whether this include oem shells or something else?

Edit: they measure the crank while in? RB job is about half price of the 25KSEK I got indicated over here which still thought was doable.

[tdott]

Another example.

2009 w/67k miles
Owner purchased it recently so unknown OCI or how it was used. It was a Northeast car before it came to FL.

They seemed to be on the better side wear wise, but clearly still more wear than expected, the wear spots were noticeably rougher over the worn spots. Motor is soon to be supercharged so hopefully the mains hold up for a long while.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Wow, thats an incredible good price Phil! Can you see whether this include oem shells or something else?

Edit: they measure the crank while in? RB job is about half price of the 25KSEK I got indicated over here which still thought was doable.

I heard they use only Oem. BMW bearings as for a bearing replacement .
I have no idea how they measure the crank .
I heard also they are very busy . And it can take months before you can get an appointment .