BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-06-2017, 03:36 PM   #23
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

How do you find the Trofeo R's drop off due to heat cycling?

I know the PSC2 drops off *really* quick from its peak grip, so even though it wears well it is certainly not an endurance type tire

I don't really have a clue about car setup. I'm sure we'll be in touch once I do the install

The build you have is very similar to what I'm doing with the secondary track car, the E92 6MT. It's supposed to be used on the street so it is not as extreme. I just wish I had read your suspension review, I would have gone with the Bilsteins instead of the JRZ
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2017, 03:55 PM   #24
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
How do you find the Trofeo R's drop off due to heat cycling?

I know the PSC2 drops off *really* quick from its peak grip, so even though it wears well it is certainly not an endurance type tire

I don't really have a clue about car setup. I'm sure we'll be in touch once I do the install

The build you have is very similar to what I'm doing with the secondary track car, the E92 6MT. It's supposed to be used on the street so it is not as extreme. I just wish I had read your suspension review, I would have gone with the Bilsteins instead of the JRZ
They won't last as long as Cup 2, and their peak performance operating window is a bit tighter, but man when you get there, it's awesome. However, I find Cup 2's last a long time. We have tons of Porsche GT4's locally that have put countless laps on them and still turning great lap times. They just take more time to warm up as they get older.

I can assure you my setup is not extreme at all. In fact, my buddies are shocked at how good the car is. It is TOTALLY daily driveable. The solid subframe bushings and purple diff bushings don't change anything. Everything else I've done is just little track stuff that doesn't change any street-ability. The stock seats, make it super comfy on street, and the JRZ shocks will ride fine on the street, they can get turned way down to soft, don't worry.

In terms of setup, this is very basic, but for double adjustable, it works. I use another one that is more detailed, and it just takes guessing game out, and I find you can tune the car quickly.

Bilstein Trouble Shooting the Car at the Track

If your car is:

Loose (Oversteer) from 0 to 90 (Corner entry)
Increase compression rate on front.
Decrease rebound rate on rear
Tight (Understeer) from 0 to 90
Decrease compression rate on front
Increase rebound rate on rear

Loose (Oversteer) from 90 to 0 (Corner exit)
Decrease rebound rate on front.
Decrease compression rate on rear.
Tight (Understeer) from 90 to 0
Increase rebound rate on front.
Increase compression rate on rear.

When analyzing corner entry, or deceleration handling,
realize that the chassis is affected by:

Compression rate in front.
Rebound rate at rear.

When analyzing corner exit, or acceleration handling,
realize that the chassis is affected by:
Rebound rate in front.
Compression rate at rear.
Attached Images
 
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar
Appreciate 5
SYT_Shadow2539.00
///Mobbin676.00
CSBM5882.50
aus496.50
Pong9.00

      05-26-2017, 04:49 AM   #25
shrimp_chips
First Lieutenant
shrimp_chips's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: F10 M5 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (6)

FYI- Autozone carries the entire Bilstein range, and has a 20% off coupon online. Somehow it worked, and I got a set for $29XX.xx before tax Only downside is the JRZ's on my car are basically new lol. Just too good of a deal.
Appreciate 1
///Mobbin676.00

      05-26-2017, 06:59 AM   #26
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for that great rundown Mvez

So, I've installed the MCS and JRZ and already have a track weekend with both

MCS: 2WNR, 700/1000 springs
JRZ: RS (2WNR), 500/800 springs

My mind was blown at how compliant the MCS are. It's incredible. On the highway, it's essentially the same as the EDC suspension. If you don't bring down the settings for highway use from what you have at the track, it's still not worse than EDC on Sport.
Very impressed.

On the street there's some noise, likely because I didn't adjust the adjustable sway bar links to the right height. Dammit. I'll have to get back to that later.

As suspension adjustment isn't my thing, I'm going to sell the JRZs after one track weekend and buying another set of MCS. Having two identical cars with identical suspensions is advantageous for suspension tuning!



A couple questions about the CS:
The rears don't seem to be height adjustable?
Can you fit a 10.5 in the front?

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 05-26-2017 at 10:18 AM.
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 07:00 AM   #27
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimp_chips View Post
FYI- Autozone carries the entire Bilstein range, and has a 20% off coupon online. Somehow it worked, and I got a set for $29XX.xx before tax Only downside is the JRZ's on my car are basically new lol. Just too good of a deal.
You mean you got the complete Bilstein Clubsports for under 3k?

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 06-14-2017 at 02:27 PM.
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 07:53 AM   #28
shrimp_chips
First Lieutenant
shrimp_chips's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: F10 M5 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
You mean you got the complete Bilstein Clubsports for under 3k?

http://www.autozone.com/suspension-s...7_763177_16829
It was $32XX after WA state sales tax. It's still a great price, I paid over $4k for the same setup on my E36.
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 07:56 AM   #29
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimp_chips View Post
It was $32XX after WA state sales tax. It's still a great price, I paid over $4k for the same setup on my E36.
So to hell with it.

My plan now was to move my MCS 2WNR to my secondary track car and sell the JRZs. The primary car would get MCS 3WR.

For this ridiculous price, I'll just keep the MCS 2WNR on the primary car and get the Clubsports for the secondary car.

The E92 which is my secondary car has a build that's almost identical to Mvez's. PFC Z54 front bbk, quickfits on stock seats, some sticky tires and it bruised a LOT of egos last weekend at WGI.
I like to drive the E92 on the street so the Clubsports make a lot of sense!
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 08:09 AM   #30
shrimp_chips
First Lieutenant
shrimp_chips's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: F10 M5 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (6)

The Autozone price before the discount is the best I've seen by several hundred dollars. I'm in love with how my E36 rides on the street, so I'm hoping for the same. And yeah, the price is awesome. I wish I could have used a coupon when I bought JRZs and Motons last time lol
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 08:12 AM   #31
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimp_chips View Post
The Autozone price before the discount is the best I've seen by several hundred dollars. I'm in love with how my E36 rides on the street, so I'm hoping for the same. And yeah, the price is awesome. I wish I could have used a coupon when I bought JRZs and Motons last time lol


They're out of stock in Autozone



By the way, this is me adjusting suspension components

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 05-26-2017 at 10:02 AM.
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2017, 02:43 PM   #32
shrimp_chips
First Lieutenant
shrimp_chips's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: F10 M5 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post


They're out of stock in Autozone



By the way, this is me adjusting suspension components
Lol. I'm waiting for them to cancel my order saying it was an error
Appreciate 0
      06-12-2017, 10:56 AM   #33
steven_s
First Lieutenant
35
Rep
318
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Hm very tempted. Moved from KW CS as it felt... underwhelming. And especially at that autozone price

The rears are height adjustable; the aluminum height adjusters are see in his second post They're threaded.

570/800 is very similar to the CS; I think anyone looking for a more track oriented set up should be wary. Not to take away from this review and the positive things about them but it IS a clubsport setup afterall and looks to be more towards a balanced approach of street AND track since the rear springs are NOT linear; they're progressive.

Thanks again for the review; like many others looking at clubsport varients we bypass Bilstein since it doesn't seem readily available, but it is , and the PSS10 and 16s aren't dual-duty enough.
Appreciate 0
      06-12-2017, 12:54 PM   #34
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

Holy Crap that is an insane deal from Autozone.

I've had more track days to fine tune the setup, and I firmly stand by my initial thoughts. This is an outstanding monotube setup, built like a tank.

The performance keeps getting better as I dial it in, and I moved to a 265 square setup. I have found that with a 265 square, the car is very neutral with rear bar on full stiff, front on hole 2 or 3....depending on the track. I can provide some damper settings if people are interested.

One click, makes a very noticeable difference, which is great for quick setup. For reference, I was able to turn laps in the 1:15.XX range at Putnam park on 265 Trofeo-R with 10+ heat cycles already on them. For a full interior 3500lb, stock powered car, that is not shabby for warm summer weather. I think the car will get into the 14's with cool weather and a bit more sorting.

It's quick at NCM too. This is some slow mid-session hooning around with my buddy chasing me in a Camaro SS 1LE, which we already know is VERY fast. This was before I put a square tire setup, the car is definitely faster now, much better in the brake zones. As you can see the car is very composed. I could not be any happier with this build.

Attached Images
 
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar

Last edited by Mvez; 06-12-2017 at 03:20 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-12-2017, 07:45 PM   #35
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Please post as much info as possible mvez. I'm still trying to get the B CS for my 'street' car.
Appreciate 0
      06-12-2017, 07:58 PM   #36
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_s View Post
Hm very tempted. Moved from KW CS as it felt... underwhelming. And especially at that autozone price

The rears are height adjustable; the aluminum height adjusters are see in his second post They're threaded.

570/800 is very similar to the CS; I think anyone looking for a more track oriented set up should be wary. Not to take away from this review and the positive things about them but it IS a clubsport setup afterall and looks to be more towards a balanced approach of street AND track since the rear springs are NOT linear; they're progressive.

Thanks again for the review; like many others looking at clubsport varients we bypass Bilstein since it doesn't seem readily available, but it is , and the PSS10 and 16s aren't dual-duty enough.
Actually it is geared more towards track work, trust me. You could easily clubrace these on slicks, with much higher rates. The damping and valving is aggressive, but the wide adjustment range allow for very good manners. MCS and other comparables are no more hardcore than these, all with similar internals, and rebuildable.

People tend to either forget, or simply ignore that KW's are twin tubes, which is why they feel like they do. BMW uses them in cars like the GTS because they are cheaper and offer better street manners. Plain and simple. IDK what anybody says, a KWCS is simply not in the same league as a Bilstein CS. Ask any competent shock tuner, and you'll hear the same thing as a majority.

The rear spring actually is linear, it just has a "progressive" section on one end that fully compresses when the car is on the ground. It's simply a built in "helper" spring. The spring also has a small angled section to help with articulation as the control arm moves through it's range of motion. This is really nice, as it helps prevent coil binding, since there aren't any articulating spring perches, which I used to use on my E6 M3 track car. This is a very well thought out piece of engineering you don't get with most other company's "kits". Also, it doesn't make any noise.

This is the same linear-and-helper spring type as used OE on the 997.1 GT3/RS, which I previously owned. It works very well actually, for when on streets or bumpy tracks. If you want another spring or rate, just install it. That's easy. What's important is that the dampers are valved to handle these and considerable higher rates. I've validated that with the Bilstein motorsport directly. I have found that with an adjustable rear sway, I don't need to increase the rear rate for my current use and setup. This also helps to keep road manners in check.

Not trying to persuade anybody, just passing on what I know or learned.
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 08:07 AM   #37
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Everything I see about the Bilsteins gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I've used Bilsteins in 4 cars so far and they were always top notch.

As you keep mentioning Mvez, the fact this is an oem-style kit should not be ignored. It is a key component.
I've installed two coilovers and it's instantly apparent they are a kit, made by different companies and kept together with masking tape. That is a far cry from an oem setup

By the way, do these have camber plates?
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 08:52 AM   #38
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Everything I see about the Bilsteins gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I've used Bilsteins in 4 cars so far and they were always top notch.

As you keep mentioning Mvez, the fact this is an oem-style kit should not be ignored. It is a key component.
I've installed two coilovers and it's instantly apparent they are a kit, made by different companies and kept together with masking tape. That is a far cry from an oem setup

By the way, do these have camber plates?
Yes, camber plates and front sway bar mounts included. It has that OEM fitment quality, but the performance is very much track focused. That's how I would describe it.
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow2539.00

      06-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #39
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mvez View Post
Yes, camber plates and front sway bar mounts included. It has that OEM fitment quality, but the performance is very much track focused. That's how I would describe it.
I should have asked but the camber plates are adjustable for camber only not caster? So like a GC street plate
As long as it has a -1.8 to -3 camber range I'm happy
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 04:12 PM   #40
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

There is no rubber, so it's a race-type camber plate, but camber adjustment only. My caster numbers are still fine, so there is no issue there. You can get over 3 degrees with them. I have a pretty conservative ride height, and with camber plates max'd out, I am at -3.1. So definitely room for more camber if you drop the nose further, or grind shock tower holes in a bit.

However, even with sticky Trofeo rubber, -3-ish seems just about right both in terms of tire wear and pyrometer testing. Geometry on the E9X has definitely improved over E46....
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow2539.00
CSBM5882.50

      06-13-2017, 08:56 PM   #41
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

I don't run more than -3 on the e9X. The chassis is much improved over the E46
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 10:23 PM   #42
steven_s
First Lieutenant
35
Rep
318
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Mvez very cool info on the built-in helper spring theory. Not shitting on you or what Bilstein says by calling it a "theory"; obviously good enough for 997 gt3/rs, but curious as to why not actual helper spring set up. But very cool to know it's a linear rear in that sense.

Yes; I forgone that thought on the KWCS after purchasing; the twin tube is definitely not track oriented and definitely leaves it far behind when talking about upper echelon suspension groups.

As for spring rate, would you happen to know what the range is? 570/800 to jump to a more track rate like 700/1000 I'd only assume you'd have to revalve and adjust.
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2017, 11:01 PM   #43
Mvez
Private First Class
Mvez's Avatar
75
Rep
109
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_s View Post
Mvez very cool info on the built-in helper spring theory. Not shitting on you or what Bilstein says by calling it a "theory"; obviously good enough for 997 gt3/rs, but curious as to why not actual helper spring set up. But very cool to know it's a linear rear in that sense.

Yes; I forgone that thought on the KWCS after purchasing; the twin tube is definitely not track oriented and definitely leaves it far behind when talking about upper echelon suspension groups.

As for spring rate, would you happen to know what the range is? 570/800 to jump to a more track rate like 700/1000 I'd only assume you'd have to revalve and adjust.
It's not a theory, it's just a fact of what the spring is. Why they use it? Because H&R supplies all the springs for every Bilstein kit, and they engineered something that works. Same spring on the GT3 was H&R. Why wouldn't they go with a solution that packages better for their kit? Most other smaller shock companies don't have huge supply partnerships like this, so they use whatever is easier or they choose to use, which is fine too. Both types accomplish the same thing. The only difference is the twin spring setup makes for easier main spring changes. Big deal. If I want to change rates, I'll replace it. Quit overthinking the springs....

No revalving is needed for higher spring rates such as 700-1000. All performance, adjustable shocks have valving ranges which will handle 20%-30% more spring rate without any issues.

That is the same for MCS, JRZ, KW, Bilstein, etc. etc. They will all tell you the same thing. You want to use 700-1000, no problem. Slap them on.
__________________

'18 GT3 - 6MT (Dec. build date)
'13 E92 M3 - street/track
'07 Cayman S - track car
'00 Miata - racecar
Appreciate 0
      06-14-2017, 09:26 AM   #44
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
2539
Rep
4,252
Posts

Drives: E90M, E92M, X5, Mini Cooper S
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_s View Post
Mvez very cool info on the built-in helper spring theory. Not shitting on you or what Bilstein says by calling it a "theory"; obviously good enough for 997 gt3/rs, but curious as to why not actual helper spring set up. But very cool to know it's a linear rear in that sense.

Yes; I forgone that thought on the KWCS after purchasing; the twin tube is definitely not track oriented and definitely leaves it far behind when talking about upper echelon suspension groups.

As for spring rate, would you happen to know what the range is? 570/800 to jump to a more track rate like 700/1000 I'd only assume you'd have to revalve and adjust.
I find the built in helper is a great idea. Yes, it complicates changing springs but lets be honest, 90% of kits never get their springs changed.

A single spring with a built in helper eliminates the helper spring and the helper spring perch, so two pieces which disappear vs a standard kit. This is great. The less pieces you have the better. KISS mentality FTW
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST