335i driver does test-drive with M3

[footie]

Originally Posted by lucid

I don't drive on full throttle all the time or anything. But the point is when I want to go fast and use whatever the car is capable of delivering at that point, I floor it. It's that simple really. Again the issue has nothing to do with the car's ability to deliver torque to the wheels.

Clearly mate I think we aren't understand what each is meaning by our comments or that or expectation are different. From my brief experience of the M3 I found it's pick-up at low engine revs to be less than either my S5 or the 335i I tried a few days prior given the type of driving I usually do in town, 13eastie give me a valid reason for why it might have felt this way.

I may add that from memory the new M3 does handle this discipline a lot better than the old model but again one would have to place to two side by side to see if this is indeed true.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by footie

Clearly mate I think we aren't understand what each is meaning by our comments or that or expectation are different.

That's cool.

[squeezebm]

My brother has a 335i,up untill recently i had a 335d a good friend of mine has an S5 and i now drive an E92 M3 and have driven all three cars numerous times in different conditions and at varying rates of knots, so can add to this debate that the M3 is in a different league

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by lucid

If you drive predominantly below 2000rpms, yes, you do not need this car.

Initmidated? LMAO My very lucrative business revolves around qualitative and quantitative (financial) analysis. But it was a nice ad hominem attempt...

My argument the whole time is your analysis is based on the wrong scenario, and it still is. You've attempted to disprove your own understanding of the OP's comment, and I believe you've gotten it wrong, by applying the wrong model. Or perhaps I can state it the way footie states it, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, which the WHOLE TIME was an attempt to explain how the OP could come to his conclusion. At no time did I state a stock 335i is faster than a stock M3, although I am interested in seeing some roll-on results, and I believe under certain circumstances that could be the case.

As for whether I need the car or not, come on out to the track and then judge. I'll be at GIR and Road America for sure, and a few other tracks schedule permitting. In daily driving, you are right, I don't need either car, which is why I have a daily/winter vehicle as well.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

As for whether I need the car or not, come on out to the track and then judge. I'll be at GIR and Road America for sure, and a few other tracks schedule permitting.

You'll most likely love this car if you'll track it. The issue is really about what it can or cannot do on the road at low rpms. If you are the kind of person who drives on the road at very low rpms, than it will not deliver as much torque to the wheels as the 335. The question is at rpm range do things start to happen for the M3. The common misconception in a scenario like the M3 vs. 335i situation, which you obviously share based on your previous post, is that you have to be driving at 6000 rpms for it to make a difference. The data show otherwise. If you want to keep on arguing against the facts, that's your choice. If you want to confuse throttle mapping with the car's available potential at a given rpm, that's also your choice.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Initmidated? LMAO My very lucrative business revolves around qualitative and quantitative (financial) analysis. But it was a nice ad hominem attempt...

My argument the whole time is your analysis is based on the wrong scenario, and it still is.

Put more succinctly, they've built themselves a nice little straw man

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Put more succinctly, they've built themselves a nice little straw man

I already used 'ad hominem', I did not want to drop 'strawman' into the same post, lest I be too reminded of Logic, Language, and Argumentation 101

However, to be fair I reread the post and I can understand where Lucid is coming from. He does not like the 6,000 RPM comment, and I meant it as an whimsical exaggeration. He then went on to prove the M3 has more TQ at the wheels starting at 2000RPM in 1st gear (and later gears 1-3), while I was still focused on what other variables might account for the OP's and others test drive reviews. After that point, I know we were talking 2 different things. He wanted to prove his model right, I wanted to point out his model was not an accurate indication of the OP's comments.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Put more succinctly, they've built themselves a nice little straw man

Nice criticism, BRILLIANT. Say someone else's reasoning is flawed and don't bother explaining how or why it is flawed. Classic.

Again an engine produces a particular torque at a particular rpm, and this along with the cars mass, drivetrain loss and drivetrain multiplication governs the acceleration, period. As well physics is >>> seat of the pants. Folks here are really confused with torque vs. throttle mapping. What throttle mapping does is control the throttle sensitivity. In one setting 1 inch of throttle may produce 10% more mixture flow, in another setting is may producre 12% more. Also this can be made a function of at what point in the pedal throw the inch of travel occurs. As well a very flat torque curve is always misleading as to how much acceleration is occuring (the jet aircraft analogy on takeoff again). Think about it.

If it matters I've driven the 335i, but that means NOTHING.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

At no time did I state a stock 335i is faster than a stock M3, although I am interested in seeing some roll-on results, and I believe under certain circumstances that could be the case.

There's the typical 335i thinking I have come to expect.

[gmund1948]

I have said it before

The M3 is superior as a track car, much more beef in suspension and brakes
I ran my 335 cab and the M3 at the ring one after another and the 335 is
a great car but not as capable as the M3

If BMW wanted to build a TWIN TURBO 6 M3 they could and would have !

Drive an M3 and a 335 back to back, on a track

The M3 is an industrial strength monster, but many people will show numbers
on why a 335 "could be better" I doubt you will ever try one these back to back
335 is a great car. but its not an M3 But hey if you own it great, the power band on the
M3 is so much more comfortable, especially side by side. If you want a drag racer
fine buy a 335 mod and rice the heck out of it, on a track with corners you will wish you had the
M3s drive train

This has been going on for a long time, but as always love the one your with.

M3 coupe with the new D?? trans, a sunroof and heated seats PP for me
Place the order next week, pick up in Munich the first date of the launch

from Germany

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Nice criticism, BRILLIANT. Say someone else's reasoning is flawed and don't bother explaining how or why it is flawed. Classic.

Do you know what a straw man is? Its when you misrepresent someone else's argument and then argue against that. That's precisely what you're doing, even though you may not be aware of it.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Again an engine produces a particular torque at a particular rpm, and this along with the cars mass, drivetrain loss and drivetrain multiplication governs the acceleration, period.

If we we were talking about full throttle acceleration, that would be just about all we needed to know. We aren't.

Originally Posted by swamp2

As well physics is >>> seat of the pants. Folks here are really confused with torque vs. throttle mapping.

No, we're a step ahead of you. We're arguing that at partial throttle, it's possible the 335i is delivering more mixture, and/or has less rotational inertia than the E92 M3 (which, for all we know could have been driven in the non-sport throttle setting) resulting in the 335i...get ready for it...climbing through its rev band faster than the E92 M3.

Originally Posted by swamp2

What throttle mapping does is control the throttle sensitivity. In one setting 1 inch of throttle may produce 10% more mixture flow, in another setting is may producre 12% more. Also this can be made a function of at what point in the pedal throw the inch of travel occurs. As well a very flat torque curve is always misleading as to how much acceleration is occuring (the jet aircraft analogy on takeoff again). Think about it.

I did. The point flew over your head like that theoretical jet aircraft.

Originally Posted by swamp2

If it matters I've driven the 335i, but that means NOTHING.

Tiff Needle drove the E92 M3 and commented about the "lazy personality" of the V8 at part throttle. Does his opinion count?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...b5001bde95.htm

[murellus]

wtf is the point of this thread now? sounds like a 335 owner not able to concede that the m3 will be faster

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by murellus

wtf is the point of this thread now? sounds like a 335 owner not able to concede that the m3 will be faster

and he was right....especially at lower rpms.

[murellus]

Correct me if i'm wrong. but if you were to race both cars you're not gonna start out engine rpm at idle but rather launch at a higher rev appropriate for each respective engine, in which case the 335's low rpm torque adv is really negated and the m3 will end up pulling away especially in the lower gears

[gasman]

You guys f...ing crack me up. Get off your computers for a little bit, have a drink and go get laid. "This mine is better than yours BS" is really quite childish. You know I really find that at 3/16ths throttle, and there only, that my G35 is much better than any BMW.

[rick berry]

This 335 comparison is getting VERY tired. I will be getting a loaded M3 with the new DCT. Jerez black. The 335 guys need to get a life and go back to their own forum.

[normtrum]

Originally Posted by rick berry

This 335 comparison is getting VERY tired. I will be getting a loaded M3 with the new DCT. Jerez black. The 335 guys need to get a life and go back to their own forum.

Those bastards!!!! oh wait....I have one in my garage

So far I am right with you on my own m3 (waiting list)....Jerez black...loaded.. .with DCT. If you get yours first....I'm going to need some pics

I am also getting tired of these comparisons. Hell it started out with a guy trying to give a simple impression of his test drive. I'm pretty sure he was just trying to be helpful....and look where it took us

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Do you know what a straw man is? Its when you misrepresent someone else's argument and then argue against that. That's precisely what you're doing, even though you may not be aware of it.



If we we were talking about full throttle acceleration, that would be just about all we needed to know. We aren't.



No, we're a step ahead of you. We're arguing that at partial throttle, it's possible the 335i is delivering more mixture, and/or has less rotational inertia than the E92 M3 (which, for all we know could have been driven in the non-sport throttle setting) resulting in the 335i...get ready for it...climbing through its rev band faster than the E92 M3.



I did. The point flew over your head like that theoretical jet aircraft.




Tiff Needle drove the E92 M3 and commented about the "lazy personality" of the V8 at part throttle. Does his opinion count?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...b5001bde95.htm

There is no straw man. Point it out if there is.

Part throttle, full throttle it does not matter the engine can only produce a certain max torque and it depends on rpm not on throttle position.

You are not a step ahead, you "seat of the pants" and "screw the analysis" guys are living in the freaking dark ages. What if cars or planes or rockets were designed that way. Nothing would ever work.

Climbing throught the rev band faster is again irrelevant. How fast a car can rev is governed by the balance between mass, losses and drag vs engine torque - that determines how fast it will rev - as fast as it can given the acceleration that results from this balance. Faulty reasoning again. Now if you want to talk about how fast it can rev in neutral that is a whole different story that highly depends in engine dynamics and interia.

Tiff's opinion counts only if he speaks precisely and phrases his findings/opinion in a way that is VERIFIABLE with test. If he says the 335i is more "driveable" because it produces more torque at low rpm compared to the M3 I would say he is wrong. This is much more about science/engineering/physics than seat time or opinions or any other ways of gathering information that are massively biased.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Part throttle, full throttle it does not matter the engine can only produce a certain max torque and it depends on rpm not on throttle position.

You are not a step ahead, you "seat of the pants" and "screw the analysis" guys are living in the freaking dark ages. What if cars or planes or rockets were designed that way. Nothing would ever work.

I see very little has changed since I was last here, with same old argument raging on.

Swamp answer me this and it relates to this idea that part throttle may be different from model to model, if the mapping of one car has ... lets say a third of the throttle pressed is equal to more than half throttle at the engine while the other car's third throttle means exactly that, one third then surely the first car will feel the quicker. This is my belief about my Audi S5 and possibly the 335i but with the M3 it's throttle is the more accurate, my understand from 13eastie was that Sport Plus basically sharpen the throttle response, effective doing what I and others have been talking about.

P.S.

Seat of the pants analysis is how Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill and Jim Clark all setup their racing cars and won world championships and it is still the final signing off of any suspension system in any car, not the figures that it happens to produce on the ring but how the car feels to the driver. If you got the car that produced the best lap time then I very much doubt you would enjoy driving it day to day.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You are not a step ahead, you "seat of the pants" and "screw the analysis" guys are living in the freaking dark ages. What if cars or planes or rockets were designed that way. Nothing would ever work.

Cars and planes and rockets are designed with computers, then it's out to the real world for testing. Cars and planes and rockets do blow up often.

Each new generation of design tools then takes that real world testing and experience and hopefully models it better. Cars and planes and rockets still blow up.

Rinse. Repeat.

Perhaps 1 day those tools will be perfect. Then, I can put in my desired end result parameters and design, the computer can spit data to machine shop and assembly robots, and out comes the perfect, individualized car, plane, or rocket.

Until that day, though, we realize computer testing/simulation has its limits.

[B'CahiLL-The Boss]

In my opinion you can't compare other BMW's to 2008 M3 / M5 / M6... 335 handling is shitty... but other than that, it has a lot of potential. I don't like my 335 anymore. It is a sweet car though

[Jimmyz]

Originally Posted by swamp2

OK Bruce. Here it is to humor you. I have tweaked my 335i sims a bit to get a 4.8 s 0-60 and 13.5 s 1/4 mi. Below are the acceleration curves for the 6MT M3 vs. 6MT 335i. Unless you are talking about that tiny little peak where the 335i exceeds the M3, only in 1st, for a very narrow speed range, the M3 exhibits a substantially larger acceleration in gears 1-3. Do note in 4th gear and higher the accelerations are much closer (almost identical) but also significantly smaller.

I did also notice that for 30-50 roll ons in gear the 335i slightly best the M3 in 3 gears. By slight I mean .1s or less. However, when using the proper gear and more rpms the M3 can still take this contest. If this is what you or the OP meant by the M3 will feel slower than I can agree it is technically true but again ones ass can not feel such small differences. All other in gear acceleration from speed X to Y are won by the M3.

Is there anyway that you can re-do that graph with a stock 335 instead of a modded one, and an Audi S5 AWD? I want to know what feels the fastest and slowest, and how much of a difference there is. If you can add a 2003 Porsche 996 Turbo, that would be great since I drove that car all the time and I can use it as a comparison of speed.

Thanks!