E92 M3 ZCP in SCCA Solo F Street

[PedalFaster]

Originally Posted by MINIz guy

Gotcha, I wasn't aware the earliest the M3 could be reclassed would be 2022 after member comments in 2021.

No, no, we're overcorrecting. Changes proposed for the 2020 season have already been published this year, 2019. Any changes published now or in early 2020 are potentially effective in 2021. So 2021 is the earliest the M3 could be moved somewhere, unless the SAC does something weird like reviving the withdrawn BS-move proposal.

Keep in mind there's no wait period for classing new cars. In the 2015 test, the Mustang basically tied the M3's times. Since then, the Mustang has gotten better in every way, and this year the Bullit came out. Based on the results of the 2015 test, I can't see how the Bullit can't already be the fastest car in the class, but no one's brought one out yet. Even if it isn't, Chevy or Ford could release a faster version at any time and obsolete the M3 in a flash.

[SkysTheLimit]

Originally Posted by Richbot

But we ruined the V8 pony car class! Or bmw built a better camaro in the e92 is more like it, without the annoying torque, heh

We’re any of the trophy cars sedans? Just curious. I saw somebody had an LRP which is kinda awesome

Jeremy's car is an E90. He was 5th a couple years ago too.

[MINIz guy]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

No, no, we're overcorrecting. Changes proposed for the 2020 season have already been published this year, 2019. Any changes published now or in early 2020 are potentially effective in 2021. So 2021 is the earliest the M3 could be moved somewhere, unless the SAC does something weird like reviving the withdrawn BS-move proposal.

Ok, that makes sense for me now. Comments open for 2020, changes effective in 2021 is available. I have no idea of deadlines, and the previous post confused me a little more.

Still makes me hesitant to buy an E9x for FS, as the possibility of it only being in FS for one more year (2020) isn't ideal. I wonder what changes will be open for comments in 2020 (not the off season!).

[kyoo]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

No, no, we're overcorrecting. Changes proposed for the 2020 season have already been published this year, 2019. Any changes published now or in early 2020 are potentially effective in 2021. So 2021 is the earliest the M3 could be moved somewhere, unless the SAC does something weird like reviving the withdrawn BS-move proposal.

Keep in mind there's no wait period for classing new cars. In the 2015 test, the Mustang basically tied the M3's times. Since then, the Mustang has gotten better in every way, and this year the Bullit came out. Based on the results of the 2015 test, I can't see how the Bullit can't already be the fastest car in the class, but no one's brought one out yet. Even if it isn't, Chevy or Ford could release a faster version at any time and obsolete the M3 in a flash.

this!!

Originally Posted by MINIz guy

Ok, that makes sense for me now. Comments open for 2020, changes effective in 2021 is available. I have no idea of deadlines, and the previous post confused me a little more.

Still makes me hesitant to buy an E9x for FS, as the possibility of it only being in FS for one more year (2020) isn't ideal. I wonder what changes will be open for comments in 2020 (not the off season!).

i bought mine a year ago and autoxed for a few months before all this clamoring started up. no testing shows the m3 should be the far and away fastest.. and i cant help if people don't want to autox mustangs and camaros. decided i'm going to keep it no matter what though, i love it.

[Richbot]

Mayfield - bawsssed it

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Mayfield - bawsssed it

It was awesome to listen to and follow today, and co-driver Tyler made it into in the trophies too

[z3papa]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

No, no, we're overcorrecting. Changes proposed for the 2020 season have already been published this year, 2019. Any changes published now or in early 2020 are potentially effective in 2021. So 2021 is the earliest the M3 could be moved somewhere, unless the SAC does something weird like reviving the withdrawn BS-move proposal.

Keep in mind there's no wait period for classing new cars. In the 2015 test, the Mustang basically tied the M3's times. Since then, the Mustang has gotten better in every way, and this year the Bullit came out. Based on the results of the 2015 test, I can't see how the Bullit can't already be the fastest car in the class, but no one's brought one out yet. Even if it isn't, Chevy or Ford could release a faster version at any time and obsolete the M3 in a flash.

Nothing has changed since the 2015 test other than the other cars in class have gotten faster. To be fair, it was the Gen 5 1LE which matched the time of the M3. The Mustang have since resolved the gearing issue that plagued the Mustang in 2015. The reality is Leeder came in 2nd last year in a Camaro ahead of many M3's that placed into the trophies this year. I personally drove poorly but saw the cream of the talent chose M3's and could have probably done well in a full prep Camaro.

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Mayfield - bawsssed it

Originally Posted by Kelse92

It was awesome to listen to and follow today, and co-driver Tyler made it into in the trophies too

Thanks!! Pretty pumped to do what I thought the car was capable of.

Had some challenges leading up to the event (found a leaking rear shock Saturday night, missed the transport so I put the “street” in ST and drive the car out from CA), but ultimately everything worked out. Bought a set of the 265 Yokos from Jake Namer after his FS runs were done Wednesday. Got a single run in on the test and tune course that night which was inconclusive, so I just made a good plan Thursday morning and tried to come out clean and strong early. That worked out well as I stood on first runs both days - I found it difficult to find time on the Yokos. I think as a single driver I could get them cold enough between runs to get back to the magic but as a 2-driver on hot days with little 265s it was tough. All you have to do is look at the raw times between me and STX to know that I left plenty out there.

I also discovered at the shakedown event at crows a couple weeks prior, that the limited slip diff in my car is not really working as well as it used to. Strange, it only has 112k miles on it! I’ll fix that over the winter, and I’m really thinking about going to ESP next year to give Jeff a run for his money in the camaro. And by “go ESP” I mean bolt Hoosiers on to the STU car. Jeff was exactly 2s/day faster than me so I think I’ll have to find a little more time than just the Hoosiers.

I’m definitely of the opinion that all these FS M3’s should go to STU where you get more camber, more wheel, more power and more fun! The car can definitely compete at the top of the class. It would be great to see a few more out there next year.

[Tommysalami]

My fastest raw and clean runs from nationals. Dug myself into a hole with mistakes on my first two runs on each side, and forced myself to get a decent clean run on the third run. I'm curious how things would have turned out had I managed my strategy differently, by ensuring I got a clean run 1 rather than going hyper aggressive right off the bat. The car felt great even on the "wrong" tire (285f 275r REs), and I feel that minus the mistakes I made I still had good pace and could have been closer to the leader. It's something I'll have to work on next year, along with many other things I learned from my first time out there.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by fsmtnbiker

I’m definitely of the opinion that all these FS M3’s should go to STU where you get more camber, more wheel, more power and more fun! The car can definitely compete at the top of the class. It would be great to see a few more out there next year.

We’ve already talked about this but I’m planning on running out there next year if I can finish getting my car prepped! (Plus, an STU prepped e92 is wayyy more fun on a track than a stock one)

And I’m really surprised you were running the 265 Yoko’s. When I saw in the results that you had them I was wondering what size you ended up with, but sounds like the Stones are still the better option?

[Rexracer]

Sorry for the thread jack, but it seems relevant, and expect others are like me.

I started Auto-x'ing seriously this year, I have a 92 C4 Vette that came fairly built (383 strocker/suspension/315s square/ 450hp/ etc). I have been running CAM-S, and have a slight lead in the points series going into the last event this weekend.

Anyways, I always knew that if I liked it, I would have to get a car that was more suitable for auto-x. The C4 is great, but it will never compete with C7 Z06s/GS.

I figured that if I sold the vette and my DD Fusion electric (kids are out of rear facing car seats), I could get 1 car to do it all. I have considered the Camaro turbo 4 for DS, but dropping that much power seems hard, and compared to the Type R and Focus RS, seems like an uphill road to travel. I would do a Type R, but the looks are atrocious, and I don't think I can convince my wife to let me spend 35k on a toy (rather I think I would be buried in a shallow grave for asking).

I was at the point of going for a Civic SI or even a hatch sport, they did well in GS and HS, and would be good family cars. But going from good RWD HP to low FWD sounds miserable.

Enter the E90 M3. I have always liked BMW's, but since I do 99% of the work on my own cars, seeing peoples comments of "you have to have a special tool that only the dealer has" has ruled them out to me. Reading up in here, I see the crank bearings could be an issue (is there any warning, like excessive bottom end noise?), then simple stuff like lights, idle valve, etc etc. Overall, this seems like one of the most reliable BMWs I have heard about.

So the questions, focusing on autocross FS:

1) is a 4-door sedan as competitive as the 2-door coupe? Obviously the sedan would make the better family car

2) Is the auto/DSG good, or do you need the manual for autocross? I would much rather have the manual, but since the other 99.5% of the time its shuffling kids in traffic, and there seems to be way more autos, it could be acceptable

3) is the 2011 competition (ZCP?) package required, if the plan would be to do shocks (sach/JRZ/Penske). From my limited research it seems like its suspension tuning and bigger wheels, which would be good, but only 1/2" so not a huge advantage.

4) Assuming rod bearings would be done, and new shocks remove the need for the ZCP package, are the 2011-13 cars really better then the early cars?

My personal goal is to make it to nationals next year and not embarrass myself. Looking at Pax times, the FS cars (averaging the 3 top finishers in each of the stock class's), had the 3rd most favorable PAX time (AS/ES/FS/DS/BS/CS), which helps on a local level.

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Rexracer

...I see the crank bearings could be an issue (is there any warning, like excessive bottom end noise?), then simple stuff like lights, idle valve, etc etc. Overall, this seems like one of the most reliable BMWs I have heard about.

It's pretty reliable but there's no warning on the rod bearing failure. Pretty small failure rate though so it's not something I would worry about. You can replace them if you feel worried, and just be done with it.

Originally Posted by Rexracer

So the questions, focusing on autocross FS:

1) is a 4-door sedan as competitive as the 2-door coupe? Obviously the sedan would make the better family car

2) Is the auto/DSG good, or do you need the manual for autocross? I would much rather have the manual, but since the other 99.5% of the time its shuffling kids in traffic, and there seems to be way more autos, it could be acceptable

3) is the 2011 competition (ZCP?) package required, if the plan would be to do shocks (sach/JRZ/Penske). From my limited research it seems like its suspension tuning and bigger wheels, which would be good, but only 1/2" so not a huge advantage.

4) Assuming rod bearings would be done, and new shocks remove the need for the ZCP package, are the 2011-13 cars really better then the early cars?
...

1) 4 door is fine. Try to find a E90 ZCP with no sunroof, though that is pretty rare. The coupe has pretty good rear legroom btw and is way easier to find. It's something you might consider as well. In my opinion the only option to avoid is the sunroof since it adds lots of weight up high and takes up headroom, other options don't add noticeable amounts of weight.

2) The DCT is great and isn't a disadvantage

3) Not necessarily required but the ZCP package helps and the DSC shocks that come with it are great, no need to replace them. It's worth finding a ZCP model, especially since we all end up trying to cram a wide front tire on the 9" front wheel. At the end of the day you'll wish you found a ZCP if you end up not getting one.

4) Get a 2011-13 ZCP and save the need for spending money on shocks.

[PedalFaster]

Thomas has more credibility than I do considering that I've never run a national-level event in my car, but I'll take a swing at these anyway.

Originally Posted by Rexracer

1) is a 4-door sedan as competitive as the 2-door coupe? Obviously the sedan would make the better family car

The sedan's about 100 lbs. heavier than the coupe. In general, extra weight doesn't help; whether you consider 100 lbs. significant is up to you. I wouldn't.

Originally Posted by Rexracer

2) Is the auto/DSG good, or do you need the manual for autocross? I would much rather have the manual, but since the other 99.5% of the time its shuffling kids in traffic, and there seems to be way more autos, it could be acceptable

For regular autocross it's a wash. The DSG has a slightly shorter second gear, and is a bit heavier (I've seen numbers ranging from 40 to 70 pounds). I find it's really nice being able to seamlessly drop into first in really tight corners, and go up to third in really fast sections. Having said that, sometimes you have to argue with the transmission to get it to drop a gear. I pull the downshift paddle multiple times entering slow corners in the hopes that one of those pulls will convince the computer; other people who have hopped into my car have been flummoxed by the shifting and mostly ended up just leaving it in second.

Also, if Pros are a priority, the DSG is a bad choice.

Originally Posted by Rexracer

3) is the 2011 competition (ZCP?) package required, if the plan would be to do shocks (sach/JRZ/Penske). From my limited research it seems like its suspension tuning and bigger wheels, which would be good, but only 1/2" so not a huge advantage.

Again, depends on how bleeding-edge competitive you want to be. The ZCP's changes likely aren't worth much, but they're worth *something*. I'm not aware of anyone ever having tested a ZCP car and a non-ZCP car back-to-back to quantify the advantage. I'd guess a tenth or two on a typical sixty-second course, which for most people would be within the range of driver noise.

Originally Posted by Rexracer

4) Assuming rod bearings would be done, and new shocks remove the need for the ZCP package, are the 2011-13 cars really better then the early cars?

Shocks aren't really a differentiating factor since any fancy shock you put on a non-ZCP car could also be put on a ZCP car.

Other than the existence of the ZCP package, I'm not aware of any difference between the early and late cars that would have any impact on performance. The rod bearing material was apparently changed in 2011, which made it impossible to gauge rod bearing wear via oil analysis, if that's important to you.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

The sedan's about 100 lbs. heavier than the coupe. In general, extra weight doesn't help; whether you consider 100 lbs. significant is up to you. I wouldn't.

My understanding is that it's not anywhere near that value? If you look at equivalent options and of course have a slicktop and non-fold-down seat sedan...it's much closer, I just don't recall the exact amount. Richbot probably knows off the top of his head.

Remember, you can't go by BMWNA official posted numbers since by law they have to provide a number that has all options expected on the average car; hence BMWNA shows the sedan weight with a sunroof and fold down seats while the coupe weight is quoted with the carbon fiber roof. Hence if you use those official numbers subtract something like 50+ lbs for the two options.

In the EU brochure, the difference is specified as 25kg (55 lbs) -- not sure of what options spec that is for each though.

[Richbot]

It's basically 50lb. Mine is about as light as they get (slicktop single hump 6MT), and was ~3500 on light fuel without driver in AS trim with light wheels, exhaust. That's about 50lb heavier than the lightest E92's. Scale variation aside, obviously. Never weighed on the same day in same configuration as an E92, grain of salt, yada

The weight is also carried slightly higher. It's a disadvantage, but not a big one. An E90 trophied this year at nats IIRC. You will miss the extra wheel width of the ZCP package and without a proper package conversion, they are not legal. If you're autocrossing locally, I doubt anybody will care much, but just swapping wheels is not enough for legality. With the street tires, I doubt the ZCP package is worth less than half a second on a longish national level course, that's a lot more wheel support up front on a car that needs it desperately, lower, can get more camber because it's lower, it's not insignificant. I've never tested obviously personally though, so maybe the ZCP pack really is just a button that makes the car worse? I doubt it though. Maybe true back before hoosiers got the ban hammer and the wheel diamater rule, when you'd have been stuck with 19's and a narrower front Hoosier, but not now that you can go to the 18's and the tires we use need more help from the car to work right

The E90M ZCP with slicktop is going to be sought after configuration pretty much forever, if you can find one, and you take care of it and don't drive it too much, I don't see how you'd lose much money on one. But if you're pinching pennies, a plain old '08 with high miles and no sunroof is going to be close, and it's easier to justify taking one of those to STU! See, saving you money already.

ZCP is springs, shocks/struts, bumpstops are different, programming of EDC shocks and stability control is different, and there are probably a few other bits the internet/us just don't know about which don't have the same PN. YOu'll still need to find a 2011 if you want to use the ZCP wheel width, even if it's not a ZCP. At that point you'll be paying a premium to the early cars anyway, so why not just get a ZCP?

All of this goes out the window if you plan to run in STU. Get the cheapest, best-maintained, best condition car you can find (which will probably be an '08 because most common model year and oldest) with the lowest options you can stomach, and go git some. Freedom from the stock class ruleset is a kind of freedom I would not give back

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by Richbot

All of this goes out the window if you plan to run in STU. Get the cheapest, best-maintained, best condition car you can find (which will probably be an '08 because most common model year and oldest) with the lowest options you can stomach, and go git some. Freedom from the stock class ruleset is a kind of freedom I would not give back

Haha that is good to know, I have been waffling going back down to FS with my car for the more favorable PAX vs looking at the current estimate of 8-10k to finish prepping STU, but you're probably right it will be worth it in the long run and make a great double-duty track car.

Also, in response to e90 vs e92 question, I think it won't matter that hugely if finding a lighter optioned one (slicktop no idrive), didn't an e90 end up in the trophies this year? I would say go for it! EDIT: 2011 e90 was 7th, haven't looked if any of the others above it were sedans. I'm betting the '11 is a ZCP car.

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by Rexracer

Enter the E90 M3. I have always liked BMW's, but since I do 99% of the work on my own cars, seeing peoples comments of "you have to have a special tool that only the dealer has" has ruled them out to me. Reading up in here, I see the crank bearings could be an issue (is there any warning, like excessive bottom end noise?), then simple stuff like lights, idle valve, etc etc. Overall, this seems like one of the most reliable BMWs I have heard about.

The E9x M3 is probably the most reliable of all the M3's I've had (3x E36, 2x E46, 2x E9x). The interior also seems robust (unlike the E46). The only real downside is parts cost compared to other manufacturers. Take whatever you're expecting and double it, and maybe you won't be as shocked by the prices. Coming from a domestic car, it hurts a bit.

So the questions, focusing on autocross FS:

1) is a 4-door sedan as competitive as the 2-door coupe? Obviously the sedan would make the better family car

As others have said, small weight penalty here. If you want 4-doors, I don't think it is a huge disadvantage.

2) Is the auto/DSG good, or do you need the manual for autocross? I would much rather have the manual, but since the other 99.5% of the time its shuffling kids in traffic, and there seems to be way more autos, it could be acceptable

My car is a DCT. It's awesome for everything *except* prosolo. Daily, on track, normal autocross... I love it. Launching it is not consistent nor does the 'launch control' work. If you're not planning on prosolo, I would go and drive both a 6MT and DCT car and just pick the one you prefer. I've owned both, and I would only buy another 6MT if I was building an ESP car and going for every possible advantage. The DCT is heavy, 50-60 lbs over the manual is the most common number I've heard. It is low and in the middle, so that helps. The gearing between the two is almost perfectly equal in 2nd gear. The DCT does a little better on the highway, 7th is taller than the 6MT 6th gear.

3) is the 2011 competition (ZCP?) package required, if the plan would be to do shocks (sach/JRZ/Penske). From my limited research it seems like its suspension tuning and bigger wheels, which would be good, but only 1/2" so not a huge advantage.

I would find a ZCP for your stated goals. The springs and extra wheel width are significant. I suppose you can do a conversion but I think the DSC (?) has a different calibration so that complicates things a bit. I would choose a slicktop non-ZCP over a sunroof'd ZCP.

4) Assuming rod bearings would be done, and new shocks remove the need for the ZCP package, are the 2011-13 cars really better then the early cars?

The infotainment is better as the cars get newer. For daily purposes that's a notable improvement year-to-year. I believe the 2011.75+ cars have the best system (03/11 or later build date). The newer cars also got slightly different exterior lights.

My personal goal is to make it to nationals next year and not embarrass myself. Looking at Pax times, the FS cars (averaging the 3 top finishers in each of the stock class's), had the 3rd most favorable PAX time (AS/ES/FS/DS/BS/CS), which helps on a local level.

FS is definitely a good class for the car, with a reasonable PAX. This car also has a great runway if you decide to move up in prep level to STU or ESP - I believe the car can run at the front of all 3 classes.

[PedalFaster]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

My understanding is that it's not anywhere near that value? If you look at equivalent options and of course have a slicktop and non-fold-down seat sedan...it's much closer, I just don't recall the exact amount. Richbot probably knows off the top of his head.

Remember, you can't go by BMWNA official posted numbers since by law they have to provide a number that has all options expected on the average car

I was going off of this comment in Car and Driver's 2008 test of the sedan:

The M3 blasted to 60 in 4.1 seconds, 0.3 second quicker than the Lexus and 0.1 quicker than the M3 coupe we tested last December, a surprising outcome since this sedan, which is not available with the coupe’s carbon-fiber roof, was 109 pounds heavier.

Don't know which options each was equipped with, other than that the sedan had a sunroof although it was apparently later available without.

Further confounding things is the fact that Motor Trend tested two M3s in 2008: a DCT coupe with a sunroof, and a manual sedan (of unclear sunroof status). They weighed the coupe at 3,678 lbs.; the sedan came in at 3,652. So .

[Richbot]

DCT is a 20kg penalty. Weight penalty goes up on the new turbo cars because they went to a much lighter manual - the manual in the E9x is a porker. Second the above about DCT- it’s a magical combo with the S65. If I ever blow out a knee/ankle and can’t drive stick, I won’t be that sad

Moonroof is 30sh up high on the sedan, more like 50 for coupe because carbon roof vs steel skin with roof cartridge. Also, helmet room!

Iiirc the manual e92 zcp 2013 car and driver tested was also the lightest at a hair under 3600

You could get no sunroof on the sedan from launch - mine is a slicktop March 2008 build. Most early allocations were built to the hilt though, and then the financial crisis happened, so no sunroof cars are pretty rare on e90’s, like what 1500 of them total for the whole runnin NA? Something around there.

[Rexracer]

Thanks all for the responses.

Sounds like 4 door isnt to big of a deal, and a HUGE deal for making it more family friendly, so well worth even the 100lbs penalty.

Doing PRO's isnt a priority, but would likely end up doing it each year. How reliable are the DCT? I am use to performance auto's having short life spans.

ZCP - So to be competitive at nationals you don't automatically have to swap to high quality shocks, the ZCP are that good?

[Richbot]

Reliable if you don’t let them leak. They have plastic pans and those warp and leak and if fluid gets low enough they can break. Otherwise they seem pretty unkillable near stock power. For heavy track use they need some cooling help but so does the whole car

The manuals are pretty bulletproof too. Mine is on the stock clutch at 122k miles and it’s been absolutely brutalized during its life.

I don’t think anybody has won in the m3 on aftermarket dumpers yet

Except mayfield obviously

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by Rexracer

Doing PRO's isnt a priority, but would likely end up doing it each year. How reliable are the DCT? I am use to performance auto's having short life spans.

The DCT is quite stout and very under-utilized on the E92. The transmission is basically carried over to the F8x turbo M3's with twice the torque and even there its very strong. Mine has ~112k miles on it and the last 40k have been track, autocross, and generally enthusiast driven. Zero issues other than having to fix a small leak.