2011 335is: Is anyone else a little pissed?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by sikoskul

I always thought that you shifted the 335 at around 6k due to the torque leveling off.

No, at least not in 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

But even if it were true - exactly how is 6k RPM not revving the hell out of the car? 6k RPM is damn high. Is it 8400RPM? No. But its high enough that statements about not having to rev the car are just plain ignorant.

Anyone who buys any car - short of a diesel truck or something - and claims they can shift at 3k or 4k RPM and be able to get the full potential the car provides is just looking for a reason to hate on an M3.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by mixja

I don't think you are hearing me - STOCK vs STOCK - the M3 has a 25% higher final drive ratio meaning it has 25% more in-gear torque at the wheels than the 335i. The comparison is simple because both cars share the same gear box. Because the M3 has a much higher redline, it doesn't lose any speed due to the higher final drive ratio.

Here is an example that might make it clearer. The graph below is torque delivered to the wheels in third gear, based upon vehicle speed. Granted the 335i is slightly lighter so the effective acceleration will be more in the 335i's favour, but the difference will be very slight.

As you can see the 335i only has an advantage below say 30mph (48km/h) - given the weight differences, maybe 35mph (56km/h) - this is around 2700RPM on the M3. The exact same comparison applies for any gear because both cars share the same gearbox - the only thing that changes is the speed depending on which gear you look at.

Note that the torque data is based upon dyno testing data from www.rri.se - and note that the torque values recorded for the 335i in this test data do reflect that it is underrated.

And since this thread is about the 335is, I added 10% to the 335i figures and graphed them separately - even with the extra 10% torque at the wheels and taking into account slight weight differences, I can't see the 335is having an advantage STOCK vs STOCK over the M3 over 40mph (~3000rpm).

I hear you just fine...again, I've seen the graphs, tables, and gearing specs. When driving back to back, the butt dyno tells me something different, and that's what I go by. And I never said the M3 was slower, it just lacks the "feel" of torque down low. Makes sense that the M3 would have the advantage over 35-40, but when driven properly it should have the advantage even off the line.

Just one more caveat..not everyone is interested in WOT thru the 1/4 mile. I, for one, drive 90% of the time on the lower to mid RPMS and want power when I need it, not having to downshift constantly. And no, I will never get an auto or DCT.

[mixja]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

I hear you just fine...again, I've seen the graphs, tables, and gearing specs. When driving back to back, the butt dyno tells me something different, and that's what I go by. And I never said the M3 was slower, it just lacks the "feel" of torque down low. Makes sense that the M3 would have the advantage over 35-40, but when driven properly it should have the advantage even off the line.

Just one more caveat..not everyone is interested in WOT thru the 1/4 mile. I, for one, drive 90% of the time on the lower to mid RPMS and want power when I need it, not having to downshift constantly. And no, I will never get an auto or DCT.

The above figures are based upon actual hub dyno data on the same dyno. Every car of course is different, so you have to take the data with a grain of salt.

And the graphs have nothing to do with quarter mile - yes they are WOT but they are just showing torque to the wheels in 3rd gear. And in terms of power when you need it, sorry the M3 gives instant response - although BMW have done a good job, I don't think they will ever be able to remove turbo lag for some time. Good old turbo lag influences the butt dyno too...

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by mixja

The above figures are based upon actual hub dyno data on the same dyno. Every car of course is different, so you have to take the data with a grain of salt.

And the graphs have nothing to do with quarter mile - yes they are WOT but they are just showing torque to the wheels in 3rd gear. And in terms of power when you need it, sorry the M3 gives instant response - although BMW have done a good job, I don't think they will ever be able to remove turbo lag for some time. Good old turbo lag influences the butt dyno too...

Yes, the M3 gives instant response, but the response is dog-like in the lower RPMs. Turbo lag in the 3 is slight at most, I don't understand where people say it has a lot of turbo lag? The small turbos spool quite quickly. Just different opinions here I guess, you just can't go wrong with a BMW.

[brava09]

Night and day my friend, that is 335 compared to M3.

When I first drove the M3 I was amazed at how much push you get revving at 5k rpm and after....I then tried the same in my 335i, it didn't go anywhere, it was like standing still after 5krpm....I was so disappointed on my 335i that I knew I must have the M3.

[SUB-ZERO]

M3 vs 335 is like night and day.

It seems that the only ones who argue this are the 335 owners who haven't converted yet...LOL!

However, please keep your 335. It will only make the M3 more rare.

There is a reason why a nicely equipped m3 is $20k-$30k more. Too bad some of you are blinded by your constant need to compare to m3 to see that.

Who ever told you that a 335 was close to the m3, was lying to you.

If you would actually drive one, sit in one and take it all in, you will understand this.

-SZ

[zibawal]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

M3 vs 335 is like night and day.

It seems that the only ones who argue this are the 335 owners who haven't converted yet...LOL!

However, please keep your 335. It will only make the M3 more rare.

There is a reason why a nicely equipped m3 is $20k-$30k more. Too bad some of you are blinded by your constant need to compare to m3 to see that.

Who ever told you that a 335 was close to the m3, was lying to you.

If you would actually drive one, sit in one and take it all in, you will understand this.

-SZ

Let me ask you, what is your experience in driving 335i or iS?

I drove one for 3 years and just acquired a M3. M3 is way more polished and capable machine, including build quality, materials etc. But as a daily commuter, 335i did have a more pleasurable edge up to 5000 RPM, but beyond 5000RPM, that you wont need on your stop and go, M3 has a huge PLUS! More so, handling is simply out of the world, gar literally glides through the corners, and turns. Steering is possibly a bit different towards better, but I did love a bit more stiffer 335i steering.

Now if we are talking about 335i vs 335iS, then jury is out. I liked that one quite a bit too. But for 7K more to bite that bullet? I think, quite a few will bite it. But it is no M3.

Imo, you have to drive both cars for extended period to know their virtues. But I dont think in my daily driving if i have to go back to 335i, I will miss M much? But handling for sure!

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Yes, the M3 gives instant response, but the response is dog-like in the lower RPMs. Turbo lag in the 3 is slight at most, I don't understand where people say it has a lot of turbo lag? The small turbos spool quite quickly. Just different opinions here I guess, you just can't go wrong with a BMW.

I have a 335i with Dinan now.

Accellerating in a straight line:
If at say 3k RPM and turbos are not spooled - so going from brake to gas - there is about a 1 to 2 second delay before you get the massive rush of torque - the torque part at 2-5k in the 335 is much better than in the M3. In the M3 you save that spool up time - but at 3k, the M3 doesn't have the pull the 335 has - which is a TON. It is a feel thing.

BUT, if you are at 3k and slowly accellerating and then tromp it with the turbos spooled - which happens quite a lot with me, there is NO turbo lag and it would be MUCH better than the M3 at that RPM range.

Yes, when the m3 hits the magic 5-6k the M3 wins hands down.

Corners:
M3 has much better throttle control in a corner, the LSD and other things makes it much more responsive and a better drive when cornering hands down. For example, on a corner in the 335, you have to hit the gas about a second before the corner apex to power through it, and then the turbo spools up and if you are too early or even a bit late, you break the inside wheel cutting fun, power and drive. In the M3 you have much more throttle control and can "drive" the car with the rear wheels with the LSD. this is what I am looking for in my car and why I am trading the 335 for the M3

There are certainly pros and cons to both.

A Big F'n con is the price to get the M3... you basically have to donate a kidney to get one.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by zibawal

Let me ask you, what is your experience in driving 335i or iS?

I drove one for 3 years and just acquired a M3. M3 is way more polished and capable machine, including build quality, materials etc. But as a daily commuter, 335i did have a more pleasurable edge up to 5000 RPM, but beyond 5000RPM, that you wont need on your stop and go, M3 has a huge PLUS! More so, handling is simply out of the world, gar literally glides through the corners, and turns. Steering is possibly a bit different towards better, but I did love a bit more stiffer 335i steering.

Now if we are talking about 335i vs 335iS, then jury is out. I liked that one quite a bit too. But for 7K more to bite that bullet? I think, quite a few will bite it. But it is no M3.

Imo, you have to drive both cars for extended period to know their virtues. But I dont think in my daily driving if i have to go back to 335i, I will miss M much? But handling for sure!

I guess if you just drive around town from home to work, then a 335 will be just fine and I can understand why you wouldn't miss an M3. However, if you enjoy driving and you take pleasure from flogging your V8 to 8k+ rpm yet have a level of confidence around every corner unmatched by most cars on the market today, then I recommend you stay with the M3.

Personally, all it takes is one performance drive. Ask anyone that frequents the Mid-Atlantic Skyline runs and they will tell you what an amazing machine the M3 really is.

A co-worker of mine had a 335, I test drove it twice (we swapped cars). However, ever since, he sold the 335 and picked up a nice 2008 M3.

Unless you came from a 335 to an M3, I don't see many M3 owners driving a 335 too often..why would they. Unless of course you get one as a loaner.

BTW, even in daily driving, a 335's handling is just fine. Do yourself a favor and discover the car that you own. Take a driving course or just go on a performance drive....you won't regret it.

-SZ

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I have a 335i with Dinan now.

Accellerating in a straight line:
If at say 3k RPM and turbos are not spooled - so going from brake to gas - there is about a 1 to 2 second delay before you get the massive rush of torque - the torque part is much better in the M3 - you save that time - but at 3k, the M3 doesn't have the pull the 335 has - which is a TON. It is a feel thing.

BUT, if you are at 3k and slowly accellerating and then tromp it with the turbos spooled - which happens quite a lot with me, there is NO turbo lag and it would be MUCH better than the M3 at that RPM range.

Yes, when the m3 hits the magic 5-6k the M3 wins hands down.

Corners:
M3 has much better throttle control in a corner, the LSD and other things makes it much more responsive and a better drive when cornering hands down. For example, on a corner in the 335, you have to hit the gas about a second before the corner apex to power through it, and then the turbo spools up and if you are too early or even a bit late, you break the inside wheel cutting fun, power and drive. In the M3 you have much more throttle control and can "drive" the car with the rear wheels with the LSD. this is what I am looking for in my car and why I am trading the 335 for the M3

There are certainly pros and cons to both.

A Big F'n con is the price to get the M3... you basically have to donate a kidney to get one.

You gotta pay to play brother. You pay more but for the price you get:

1. A world class engine
2. A world class chassis
3. Nicer interior
4. More aggressive exterior
5. Brakes that stop on a dime
6. The prestige factor that comes with owning an ///M

Essentially, a whole new car. Over 90% of the parts on an M3 are either tweaked or new from a 335.

-SZ

[zibawal]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

You gotta pay to play brother. You pay more but for the price you get:

1. A world class engine
2. A world class chassis
3. Nicer interior
4. More aggressive exterior
5. Brakes that stop on a dime
6. The prestige factor that comes with owning an ///M

Essentially, a whole new car. Over 90% of the parts on an M3 are either tweaked or new from a 335.

-SZ

I totally, >100% agree!

Both are excellent cars! Either way, it will be fun ride! IMO, price to enjoyment/performance quotient ratio, is pretty high nevertheless in 335i with better mileage as icing on the cake!

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by zibawal

I totally, >100% agree!

Both are excellent cars! Either way, it will be fun ride! IMO, price to enjoyment/performance quotient ratio, is pretty high nevertheless in 335i with better mileage as icing on the cake!

Yeah...the 13mpg on the m3 sucks. Again, pay to play.

I drive my Lexus Hybrid as a DD to compensate...LOL.

-SZ

[ARMAN]

Originally Posted by montreal red

there'll always be newer cars that would make us feel a little 'shitty' and jealous... but think bout it... all those owners who buy the 335is would feel like crap when the BRAND NEW 3 series gets launched in 2012. their car would feel special for at most a year or a year and half after they get it...

on the other hand, there wont be another m3 until at least 2 years into the new F series 3er... so that means we wont see a new m3 until 2014 or so... doesnt make me feel that shitty if you ask me.

This is stupid if anything they will feel good because it looks a lot like the M3

I see the 335is as a direct competitor to the S5 I think BMW did a good job.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by FStop7

... I'm kind of burned out on the whole fast car thing.

... because I'm burned out and want something less hardcore.

You're officially nuts.


Cheers.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by ersin

You're officially nuts.


Cheers.

Agreed.... I hear there is a good deal on a Prius..... if you buy before May you get 3 extra hamsters....

[ersin]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Agreed.... I hear there is a good deal on a Prius..... if you buy before May you get 3 extra hamsters....

Yeah, but those hamsters go full throttle when you don't want them to.


Cheers.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by BMWCadet

You sure it's because you want to do better than 13mpg and not have to rev the hell out of a car in order to get real power?

Revving the hell can get old but gas mileage doesn't mean a thing to me.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I have a 335i with Dinan now.

Accellerating in a straight line:
If at say 3k RPM and turbos are not spooled - so going from brake to gas - there is about a 1 to 2 second delay before you get the massive rush of torque - the torque part at 2-5k in the 335 is much better than in the M3. In the M3 you save that spool up time - but at 3k, the M3 doesn't have the pull the 335 has - which is a TON. It is a feel thing.

BUT, if you are at 3k and slowly accellerating and then tromp it with the turbos spooled - which happens quite a lot with me, there is NO turbo lag and it would be MUCH better than the M3 at that RPM range.

Yes, when the m3 hits the magic 5-6k the M3 wins hands down.

Corners:
M3 has much better throttle control in a corner, the LSD and other things makes it much more responsive and a better drive when cornering hands down. For example, on a corner in the 335, you have to hit the gas about a second before the corner apex to power through it, and then the turbo spools up and if you are too early or even a bit late, you break the inside wheel cutting fun, power and drive. In the M3 you have much more throttle control and can "drive" the car with the rear wheels with the LSD. this is what I am looking for in my car and why I am trading the 335 for the M3

There are certainly pros and cons to both.

A Big F'n con is the price to get the M3... you basically have to donate a kidney to get one.

Yes, you nailed it. On the track (with PROcede), you have to anticipate the surge of torque once the turbos spool which can be tricky in corners. I was talking stock though, as with the moderate boost levels, the lag is very transparent.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by FStop7

Revving the hell can get old ...

Really? Someone forgot to tell me this. The only thing that kept me from revving my old E46 M3 and my current E92 M3 to redline are traffic and speed limits. I suppose if there were no traffic and speed limits then maybe it would get old. Yeah, right!


Cheers.

[egtlover74]

Wow, so much interest in this. I would pick M3 over 335is at any time. 335is is more financially sound at this time. I might get an M3 next time if my commute gets shorter which is over 60 miles a day.