Slow car fast, Fast car slow?

[Kelse92]

It all boils down to a risk/cost v lap times scenario. The faster and faster a car is capable of doing bone-stock the more expensive that car gets and the more consumables that car eats through. A friend of mine went through this thought exercise when he wanted to get into tracking and owned a McLaren 570s. Obviously an extreme example, but when he ran the numbers the cost v benefit of spending 1k+/weekend in just consumables and track insurance wasn't worth it to him especially when he considered the inevitable of an off-track excursion and bending a 2k wheel or a 1k carbon fiber front lip etc. and he bought a 3k NC Miata and has dumped the money he would have spent doing 1 day/month or less into a ton of seat time and a few mods like cheap coilovers and some wheels/tires. He's having a ton of fun and jokes always how there's no way he would have been to 10 HPDE's in 4 months without owning that Miata. And even when the Miata did have issues at the track he was able to sort them quickly and lots of local shops had the parts he needed in stock to help him.

The e9x M3 falls into a nice sweet spot though. Fast, user friendly, and practical if you still want to use it as a street car. It does get expensive quick though on tires and brakes as you improve and get faster. At an average cost now of $1100-1400 for a set of sticker 200tw tires and $400+ for brakes it can add up quick depending on how much you often you plan on going to the track. However, just a few light mods like camber plates and maybe some brake upgrades are all you need to be good to go.

Personally, I'm looking at e46 330's as well. Mainly because they are cheap, 17" wheels, somewhat lower consumables costs, and eventually the basis for a spec e46 racecar build. I don't want to go full-crazy and completely strip out the interior of my e92 and add aero or cut fenders or any of that so I can keep my e92 streetable and not feel guilty about tearing up the "cheap" car. On the flip side however, that's a car that's older, higher mileage, and going to need at least 2k in just general maintenance (parts only) doing the labor myself before it even can get it on track. So depending on the buy price of the base car that could easily be $7500+ before going anywhere if you're paying for labor.

Alternative newer cars in the low Hp category are a great choice with kind of the best of all worlds with minimal compromises. My favorite being the FRS/BRZ. Those cars are newer and more reliable (just don't get a 2013 MY and don't add boost to that motor) and you can beat on it for years. Three of my friends own them and they have beat the hell out of their cars, each one getting 30+ track days/autocross days on them year after year and the only real failures I've seen out of those three cars have been a throw out bearing, a melted catalytic converter, and finally the oldest 2013 car that the owner bought new and has put 100k mostly track miles on it finally blew a head gasket recently. Really though, those guys get away dirt cheap on track driving with consumables and maintenance and those cars have held up really really well in the TX heat with just oil coolers. And with the seats folded down can fit 4 wheels and tires in the back seat, all sorts of stuff in the trunk, and a passenger even if you squeeze them in lol

The used racecar is also a great idea but maybe not something I would recommend just starting out. Keep it simple for the first car and then maybe move on to a full-built racecar if you decide to commit to go that route and want to race w2w. You may find you like TT better or that you just enjoy driving a few times a year, etc.

[tsk94]

Other platforms are definitely cheaper to run then the E9X M3's, as many have said, they are heavy and go through consumables quickly.

Miata/BRZ are excellent choices for cheap to run track cars. The aftermarket for both is huge and parts are much cheaper then equivalent BMW parts. You will become a better driver starting with a low power, momentum based car.

You might be partial to BMW's, as many of us here are. Some other BMW options are; E36 M3 track/race car. Can find these for cheap and as others have mentioned you'll save A LOT buying a built track or race car compared to building one yourself. Since you've had experience with E36's already you may not be interested in that. 330 E46 like Kelse mentioned is a good choice. Fun to drive, relatively cheap to run and much more power (relatively) compared to a MX5 or BRZ.

The other option would be an E82 128i. With a few mods they make as much power as an E36 M3. Same size as an E36 and fairly light. No subframe or rear shock tower issues like the E36/E46's have, stiffer chassis, much better suspension geometry and a more reliable engine. I plan to build a 128i endurance car in the future, they are great little cars and really forgotten about and overlooked.

[Montaver]

E90 M3 was my first 'track' car, it's fantastic for it. Neutral, balanced, predictable with a good amount of grunt. It's heavy but even a mild coil over setup will make it feel way more responsive in transitions. I tracked on just pads/fluid, but if your serious I would just go straight to a BBK. You can also cruise to and from the track in comfort and relative quiet. When you've just done 3 days at full adrenaline pounding around the track and are totally knackered, the refinement is very welcome. The BRZ/Miata are cheap to track for sure, but honestly when your getting ripped on the straight then held up through the corners by some boomer driving 5/10ths in his z06 you will very quickly wish you had more power

[derbo]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

It all boils down to a risk/cost v lap times scenario. The faster and faster a car is capable of doing bone-stock the more expensive that car gets and the more consumables that car eats through. A friend of mine went through this thought exercise when he wanted to get into tracking and owned a McLaren 570s. Obviously an extreme example, but when he ran the numbers the cost v benefit of spending 1k+/weekend in just consumables and track insurance wasn't worth it to him especially when he considered the inevitable of an off-track excursion and bending a 2k wheel or a 1k carbon fiber front lip etc. and he bought a 3k NC Miata and has dumped the money he would have spent doing 1 day/month or less into a ton of seat time and a few mods like cheap coilovers and some wheels/tires. He's having a ton of fun and jokes always how there's no way he would have been to 10 HPDE's in 4 months without owning that Miata. And even when the Miata did have issues at the track he was able to sort them quickly and lots of local shops had the parts he needed in stock to help him.

The e9x M3 falls into a nice sweet spot though. Fast, user friendly, and practical if you still want to use it as a street car. It does get expensive quick though on tires and brakes as you improve and get faster. At an average cost now of $1100-1400 for a set of sticker 200tw tires and $400+ for brakes it can add up quick depending on how much you often you plan on going to the track. However, just a few light mods like camber plates and maybe some brake upgrades are all you need to be good to go.

Personally, I'm looking at e46 330's as well. Mainly because they are cheap, 17" wheels, somewhat lower consumables costs, and eventually the basis for a spec e46 racecar build. I don't want to go full-crazy and completely strip out the interior of my e92 and add aero or cut fenders or any of that so I can keep my e92 streetable and not feel guilty about tearing up the "cheap" car. On the flip side however, that's a car that's older, higher mileage, and going to need at least 2k in just general maintenance (parts only) doing the labor myself before it even can get it on track. So depending on the buy price of the base car that could easily be $7500+ before going anywhere if you're paying for labor.

Alternative newer cars in the low Hp category are a great choice with kind of the best of all worlds with minimal compromises. My favorite being the FRS/BRZ. Those cars are newer and more reliable (just don't get a 2013 MY and don't add boost to that motor) and you can beat on it for years. Three of my friends own them and they have beat the hell out of their cars, each one getting 30+ track days/autocross days on them year after year and the only real failures I've seen out of those three cars have been a throw out bearing, a melted catalytic converter, and finally the oldest 2013 car that the owner bought new and has put 100k mostly track miles on it finally blew a head gasket recently. Really though, those guys get away dirt cheap on track driving with consumables and maintenance and those cars have held up really really well in the TX heat with just oil coolers. And with the seats folded down can fit 4 wheels and tires in the back seat, all sorts of stuff in the trunk, and a passenger even if you squeeze them in lol

The used racecar is also a great idea but maybe not something I would recommend just starting out. Keep it simple for the first car and then maybe move on to a full-built racecar if you decide to commit to go that route and want to race w2w. You may find you like TT better or that you just enjoy driving a few times a year, etc.

Funny how I went the other way around!

I've been tracking an E46 ZHP 330i for years and I wanted more power and ended where I am now with an E90. If I had the room, I would defintely have the E90M3 as a weekend car and the E46 as a dedicated track car.

That said, the ZHP was awesome with 255 squared 17s and M3 rear end, coilovers and Stoptech fronts. I'm sure its even more fun stripped out and spec e46 setup! There was a lot of joy just throwing it around at full WOT all the time. I still miss this car.

[P1zzaboy]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Other platforms are definitely cheaper to run then the E9X M3's, as many have said, they are heavy and go through consumables quickly.

Miata/BRZ are excellent choices for cheap to run track cars. The aftermarket for both is huge and parts are much cheaper then equivalent BMW parts. You will become a better driver starting with a low power, momentum based car.

You might be partial to BMW's, as many of us here are. Some other BMW options are; E36 M3 track/race car. Can find these for cheap and as others have mentioned you'll save A LOT buying a built track or race car compared to building one yourself. Since you've had experience with E36's already you may not be interested in that. 330 E46 like Kelse mentioned is a good choice. Fun to drive, relatively cheap to run and much more power (relatively) compared to a MX5 or BRZ.

The other option would be an E82 128i. With a few mods they make as much power as an E36 M3. Same size as an E36 and fairly light. No subframe or rear shock tower issues like the E36/E46's have, stiffer chassis, much better suspension geometry and a more reliable engine. I plan to build a 128i endurance car in the future, they are great little cars and really forgotten about and overlooked.

Totally agree on the 128i. With a 3L intake and short ratio diff it’s a blast to drive!

[dparm]

Originally Posted by slcook54

Is the E92 M3 a good first track car?

Yes.

/thread

[okusa]

It's a fantastic first track car. That said, the whole "Slow car fast, Fast car slow" thing is ENTIRELY lost on me. When I'm on track I just want to go fast, really f'ing fast. That is what's most fun to me. Sure any car can be fast and fun in the corners. But post apex I want to be rocketing out of that corner, not slugging along gaining "momentum" while getting passed on the straights. Slow car "fast"? I don't think so.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by okusa

It's a fantastic first track car. That said, the whole "Slow car fast, Fast car slow" thing is ENTIRELY lost on me. When I'm on track I just want to go fast, really f'ing fast. That is what's most fun to me. Sure any car can be fast and fun in the corners. But post apex I want to be rocketing out of that corner, not slugging along gaining "momentum" while getting passed on the straights. Slow car "fast"? I don't think so.

fast car fast

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by okusa

It's a fantastic first track car. That said, the whole "Slow car fast, Fast car slow" thing is ENTIRELY lost on me. When I'm on track I just want to go fast, really f'ing fast. That is what's most fun to me. Sure any car can be fast and fun in the corners. But post apex I want to be rocketing out of that corner, not slugging along gaining "momentum" while getting passed on the straights. Slow car "fast"? I don't think so.

Perhaps this will help.
I could have blasted by the Miata on the straight, but clearly there was a lot of fun to be having in a momentum car. So I stayed behind and watched him having fun.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Perhaps this will help.
I could have blasted by the Miata on the straight, but clearly there was a lot of fun to be having in a momentum car. So I stayed behind and watched him having fun.

Also tons to learn sitting behind well driven Miatas!

[Redd]

Originally Posted by okusa

It's a fantastic first track car. That said, the whole "Slow car fast, Fast car slow" thing is ENTIRELY lost on me. When I'm on track I just want to go fast, really f'ing fast. That is what's most fun to me. Sure any car can be fast and fun in the corners. But post apex I want to be rocketing out of that corner, not slugging along gaining "momentum" while getting passed on the straights. Slow car "fast"? I don't think so.

Being able to drive a slow car fast carries over into driving a fast car. If you never drive a slow car, you don't learn those tricks (eg. momentum driving) cos the performance of a fast car 'masks' your bad habits/mistakes. You may think you're a fast driver but actually it's the car that's fast.

[DL335D]

I went to a Porsche track event a few years back and was sitting around shooting the shit with about a dozen or so Porsche driving instructors. Not a single one of them was tracking a personal car that had more than 300hp. Most drove e36 bmw's and miata's. I found that interesting.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Redd

Being able to drive a slow car fast carries over into driving a fast car. If you never drive a slow car, you don't learn those tricks (eg. momentum driving) cos the performance of a fast car 'masks' your bad habits/mistakes. You may think you're a fast driver but actually it's the car that's fast.

Additionally, there is a direct correlation between having your right foot to the floor and the smile on your face. Those "fast" cars will never know our levels of joy with the pedal smashed miles before the corner exit.

[SYT_Shadow]

Here's my opinion:

An E92 currently qualifies as a momentum car against other cars. If you already have it, use it.

The whole 'building a race car' or 'buying a race car' strikes me as pure madness if OP hasn't done 50 track days at least. It's a large commitment of funds and time that may sound nice from a theoretical point of view, but actually doing 30 days a year is very tough on family/work/friends.

Cheap consumables in these lightweight race cars so many people like talking about are nice, but to be able to buy $40 rotors after spending 10k on a car doesn't strike me as smart math

An E9X needs camber plates, track pads and a Scroth QuickFitPro to allow a person to go from a newbie to an instructor in the fastest pca rungroup.
Why change things? That already works.

If OP had a Miata/BRZ I'd suggest to just roll with that.
If OP had a Z06 or 800whp E92 I'd suggest a slower car.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by DL335D

I went to a Porsche track event a few years back and was sitting around shooting the shit with about a dozen or so Porsche driving instructors. Not a single one of them was tracking a personal car that had more than 300hp. Most drove e36 bmw's and miata's. I found that interesting.

That's cos Porsche owners don't need the extra cash that comes with being an instructor. It was the same for me, I instructed for the free track time that came with the job.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Redd

That's cos Porsche owners don't need the extra cash that comes with being an instructor. It was the same for me, I instructed for the free track time that came with the job.

[slcook54]

I really appreciate all the great feedback and amazing to see all the regulars in the track section contributing. Hope to meet some of you in the future.

Considering all the feedback, I've decided to start with the E92.

My question was really, what is the the quickest way to develop as a driver, and would stepping down into something slower accelerate (pun) that process in the long term. Cost and wear of consumables is less of a factor. It appears that most feel that with a couple of light mods the E92 is totally a fine starter car and isn't THAT powerful to hide the mistakes and foundations of learning to carry momentum, etc.

Last week, I also picked up an unexpected and significant promotion at work. It will basically allow me to add another car to the stable next year, most likely 991.2 GTS or Turbo S, which scratches a different itch for me and I still need something that can haul my daughter around.

Then I can start taking more liberties and risks with the E92. For now, my goal will be to hit ~6 track days at Laguna Seca in 2021, with the E92 also acting as a weekend car. And once a second car arrives, I can start shedding more weight and focusing on building it to be more track focused.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by slcook54

I really appreciate all the great feedback and amazing to see all the regulars in the track section contributing. Hope to meet some of you in the future.

Considering all the feedback, I've decided to start with the E92.

My question was really, what is the the quickest way to develop as a driver, and would stepping down into something slower accelerate (pun) that process in the long term. Cost and wear of consumables is less of a factor. It appears that most feel that with a couple of light mods the E92 is totally a fine starter car and isn't THAT powerful to hide the mistakes and foundations of learning to carry momentum, etc.

Last week, I also picked up an unexpected and significant promotion at work. It will basically allow me to add another car to the stable next year, most likely 991.2 GTS or Turbo S, which scratches a different itch for me and I still need something that can haul my daughter around.

Then I can start taking more liberties and risks with the E92. For now, my goal will be to hit ~6 track days at Laguna Seca in 2021, with the E92 also acting as a weekend car. And once a second car arrives, I can start shedding more weight and focusing on building it to be more track focused.

If it's in the budget, get some coaching/instruction when you start tracking next year. No matter your current level or the car, good coaching will speed up the process immensely and any improvement to the driver mod will carry over to future cars. Enjoy the M3!

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by tsk94

If it's in the budget, get some coaching/instruction when you start tracking next year. No matter your current level or the car, good coaching will speed up the process immensely and any improvement to the driver mod will carry over to future cars. Enjoy the M3!

100%. dparm has said this a lot in other threads, but for me, seat time + coaching is going to take precedent over mods. I'll try to defer to in-person as much as possible, but have also seen a couple of good virtual options.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by Redd

Being able to drive a slow car fast carries over into driving a fast car. If you never drive a slow car, you don't learn those tricks (eg. momentum driving) cos the performance of a fast car 'masks' your bad habits/mistakes. You may think you're a fast driver but actually it's the car that's fast.

For me, I think driving a fast car with tc off isn't masking anything if you are willing to push the grip limits in a safe environment. Believe me, there were many hours spent vacuuming out the dirt from my car (and nose) at the beginning! However, I don't think I missed out on anything by having skipped from a 335 convertible to an M3 to a supercharged M3 to a supercharged M3 with full aero. I got fast as the car got faster.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by DL335D

I went to a Porsche track event a few years back and was sitting around shooting the shit with about a dozen or so Porsche driving instructors. Not a single one of them was tracking a personal car that had more than 300hp. Most drove e36 bmw's and miata's. I found that interesting.

The Porsche instructors here are tracking some nice Porsches.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by tsk94

If it's in the budget, get some coaching/instruction when you start tracking next year. No matter your current level or the car, good coaching will speed up the process immensely and any improvement to the driver mod will carry over to future cars. Enjoy the M3!

Absolutely agree with this! Especially for a beginner. You will learn more in your first trackday with an instructor than 10 trackdays fumbling around on your own.