Comparison test of BBK for the E9x M3 - Surprising results!!!

[IND-Distribution]

Most folks in this thread have brake kits on their cars, and most are happy with what they have, so in this respect I am glad for all of you and am not making any attempt to state which brake kit is better than another.

With that said, I do think that this test leaves some ambiguity on the table, and as always IND's goal is to ensure that as many M3 owners are as educated as possible about the factors involved in modifying their cars. The better informed M3 enthusiasts are, the better it is for everyone in the community.

This test seems to focus on two key criteria: stopping distance and pedal feel.

Stopping distance is largely a result of compound choice. Put a terrible compound in a good brake system and you'll have a long stopping distance. Put an excellent compound in a terrible brake system, and you'll have an excellent one time stopping distance.

Pedal feel is once again largely a result of compound choice. Anyone who has swapped between various pads on their track cars can attest to just how tremendously pedal feel can swing back and forth, depending on what pads you use.

Again, because of the vastly dis-similar pads used in this test, this test is more a test of brake pad than it is a test of BBK hardware.

I absolutely appreciate the desire to test the kits as-supplied. Different manufacturers make different choices on which pads to supply- some feel that their clients will appreciate the phenomenal performance of the Pagid RS29 as a pre-loaded pad, and will tolerate the noise and dust. Others elect to pre-load their kits with a street oriented pad that is less competent on the track, but has low noise and low dust characteristics. This is more than anything manufacturer preference, and is a tough call to make. Which segment of your consumer base will you choose to please? Brake pads are not a one-size-fits-all solution, and it is exactly for this reason that many of our clients swap between many different pad choices depending on what they are doing with the car that day, no matter which brake kit they have.

Although testing the kits as-supplied has some journalistic merit, it is in no way a scientific test of the quality of the hardware itself. This is why I say this test is of no use, as a test of BBK hardware- it's a brake pad test.

For a fun experiment, buy the cheapest off-brand brake kit you can from an overseas supplier like XYZ, D2, etc, and drop an Endless sprint pad into the kit. You'll find extremely short stopping distances and excellent pedal feel, in an otherwise terrible package.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Beedub

AP have never supplied their kit with the Pagid RS29. It comes with the apf404 pad. I just don't like the inconsistencies I'm seeing, how many more where their that we aren't seeing??

however i can't defend the brembo on a 20 stop brake test, that is poor performance.

it would have been nice to see another section adding the rear kits on to to see how much if any difference that makes.

The article states that AP makes the kit available with the RS29 through KK Automobile (which has to do with certification for being road legal in EU).

AP racing lists these pads as their stock options:

• APF402 / APF404 / DS2500 / DS3000 / ST41

http://www.apracing.com/product_deta...thick_pad.aspx

[tlp]

If they are to compare them solely based on the over the counter package then they should have included, initial bite, noise, dust and wet/dry characteristics. The pad is the defining awesome sauce with any brake kit to achieve the overall objectives.

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Of course pads are a very important part of any brake system. The point here was to test the performance of BBK's as delivered on the market by the suppliers. That's what the customers get and that represents the real world performance of these kits. If they all should have been tested with a pad that was not supplied with the BBK, how would that be representative of what a customer can choose from? For instance the PFC has a limited availability of brake pads, because of it's design. Should every BBK be tested with a compound that was available for the PFC, but one that neither of the other BBK manufactures recommends or markets?

That would be like testing all cars in a comparison test on the same type and brand of tire, even though the manufacturer doesn't actually sell the car with those tires...

IMO, what they have done here is to test a complete product, available to the customer over the counter.

Originally Posted by s85e90

That (as stated) would defeat the purpose of the test. The test was conducted with the supplied pads, the pads you would get if purchased. The constant is the test vehicle.

If the purpose of the study was to test out-of-the-box performance, then it shouldn't be used as a commentary on the absolute performance of the different BBKs. If you want to compare absolute performance, you have to use the same pads, fluid, tires, and surface.

In any event, I'm not sure why anyone would give two shits which one provides better out-of-the-box performance when one of the most critical components to performance (pads) is a consumable item that is likely to be upgraded when it needs replacing.

A magazine might compare two different cars and conclude that one handles a little better than the other. If the difference was thought to be attributable to the difference in the two cars' tires, I wouldn't let that stop me from buying the car with the worse tires assuming there were other aspects of the car that I liked better and the difference in handling could, in fact, be remedied with better tires.

Originally Posted by Boss330

As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason to question a correct installation of any of the BBKs. As I wrote previously, they describe in detail how they followed even the bedding in procedures with typical German precision. They had top notch personell and a brake specialist present for the test.

Originally Posted by Boss330

And they bled the Brembo's twice because they thought it was not bled properly. If they managed to install every one of the other BBK's correctly, why should they suddenly be incapable of installing just one of the BBK's?

Sounds to me like even the people running the test thought that they might have messed up the install. What do you think is more likely: a defect in install, manufacture, or design of the Brembo brakes?

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

stoptech street pads are not that great surprised they did well. i use cobalt xr2s in mine.

pretty sure the pads that came with my ST were organic or somthing...lmao surprised they did that well.... i had brembos on my e46 m3 and i can say 100% i like the consistency of my ST better on the e92.... only thing i hate is the ST pads sometimes have to be shaved down when it comes to the back plate in order to install correctly... im am surprised that PFC did not finish 1st... and arent they the only kit to use correct hardware in order to prevent kickback.... that is somthing to really think about im not surprised brembo didnt take 1st but i doubt they should be last

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

pretty sure the pads that came with my ST were organic or somthing...lmao surprised they did that well.... i had brembos on my e46 m3 and i can say 100% i like the consistency of my ST better on the e92.... only thing i hate is the ST pads sometimes have to be shaved down when it comes to the back plate in order to install correctly... im am surprised that PFC did not finish 1st... and arent they the only kit to use correct hardware in order to prevent kickback.... that is somthing to really think about im not surprised brembo didnt take 1st but i doubt they should be last

Sometimes I just take the pads out helps you use momentum at the track.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Sometimes I just take the pads out helps you use momentum at the track.

actually i removed my ST kit and put on a smaller kit then the oem brakes in order to save weight drum brakes in the rear and single piston fronts from a PRIUS!!! super light weight

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

actually i removed my ST kit and put on a smaller kit then the oem brakes in order to save weight drum brakes in the rear and single piston fronts from a PRIUS!!! super light weight

Next take off all body panels and go mad max style.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Next take off all body panels and go mad max style.

You know what? It will decimate all, after, you put about fifteen grand in it or more. If we have to, overnight parts from GERMANY....

[FFM]

Interesting results. Lot of defensive people in here.





*looks at sigs, Brembo BBK listed*

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by ForceFed Motorsports

Interesting results. Lot of defensive people in here.





*looks at sigs, Brembo BBK listed*

I don't see Brembo bias motivating iND. Could it also be that people who couldn't afford Brembo and had to "settle" for cheaper StopTech want to convince themselves they got a better product too? Your bias argument can go both ways.

[///MPharaoh]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Most folks in this thread have brake kits on their cars, and most are happy with what they have, so in this respect I am glad for all of you and am not making any attempt to state which brake kit is better than another.

With that said, I do think that this test leaves some ambiguity on the table, and as always IND's goal is to ensure that as many M3 owners are as educated as possible about the factors involved in modifying their cars. The better informed M3 enthusiasts are, the better it is for everyone in the community.

This test seems to focus on two key criteria: stopping distance and pedal feel.

Stopping distance is largely a result of compound choice. Put a terrible compound in a good brake system and you'll have a long stopping distance. Put an excellent compound in a terrible brake system, and you'll have an excellent one time stopping distance.

Pedal feel is once again largely a result of compound choice. Anyone who has swapped between various pads on their track cars can attest to just how tremendously pedal feel can swing back and forth, depending on what pads you use.

Again, because of the vastly dis-similar pads used in this test, this test is more a test of brake pad than it is a test of BBK hardware.

I absolutely appreciate the desire to test the kits as-supplied. Different manufacturers make different choices on which pads to supply- some feel that their clients will appreciate the phenomenal performance of the Pagid RS29 as a pre-loaded pad, and will tolerate the noise and dust. Others elect to pre-load their kits with a street oriented pad that is less competent on the track, but has low noise and low dust characteristics. This is more than anything manufacturer preference, and is a tough call to make. Which segment of your consumer base will you choose to please? Brake pads are not a one-size-fits-all solution, and it is exactly for this reason that many of our clients swap between many different pad choices depending on what they are doing with the car that day, no matter which brake kit they have.

Although testing the kits as-supplied has some journalistic merit, it is in no way a scientific test of the quality of the hardware itself. This is why I say this test is of no use, as a test of BBK hardware- it's a brake pad test.

For a fun experiment, buy the cheapest off-brand brake kit you can from an overseas supplier like XYZ, D2, etc, and drop an Endless sprint pad into the kit. You'll find extremely short stopping distances and excellent pedal feel, in an otherwise terrible package.

Yup, this. Spot on.

One time stopping distance blah blah. NONE OF US spend this kind of money for a "one time stopping distance." There is only one way to make the "quality of hardware argument." Put the same pads on all brakes and run 10+ laps on the track at full pace. The purpose built hardware will shine. Simple.

...then run this same test every weekend the whole summer and see which kit is the best quality for such a beating

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by ///MPharaoh

Yup, this. Spot on.

One time stopping distance blah blah. NONE OF US spend this kind of money for a "one time stopping distance." There is only one way to make the "quality of hardware argument." Put the same pads on all brakes and run 10+ laps on the track at full pace. The purpose built hardware will shine. Simple.

...then run this same test every weekend the whole summer and see which kit is the best quality for such a beating

One time???

They ran on a track AND did at least 40 brake tests from 200-0 and 100-0 (20 from each speed). They also did 250-0, but not 100% sure if they did that one 20 times also.

It looks like they did exactly what you wanted...

[bigjae1976]

IMO, everyone here is missing something quite important. The one thing not being talked about here is the design of the brakes which would have an impact of performance. Did they test the car with a front BBK or a front and rear BBK?

It would make sense that Stoptech would do well because they specifically design their front BBKs to be used with the OE rear brakes. I'm sure ABS would not work as well with the other kits that were optimized as a 4 wheel kit.

The stoptech pads are on par with the Brembo pads. Then pagoda need some heat in them to perform optimally...so the crying about the pads is a moot point.

[r53s65e90]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

...
The stoptech pads are on par with the Brembo pads. Then pagoda need some heat in them to perform optimally...so the crying about the pads is a moot point.

Nooooo! Brembo pads suck. They are really really really bad. Only suitable for quiet leisurely poser street driving in my experience. Stoptech street performance pads are great.

[Mozgov]

Originally Posted by Hujan

I have Brembos and the pedal feel and modulation is fantastic compared to stock. It sounds to me like the Brembos in the test were not setup/bled correctly.

Also, I think it's a fair criticism of the test to say that the results should be viewed with skepticism because of the different pad compound. I would like to see the test repeated with same pads, same tires, same surface, and no reasons to question whether any of the kits were installed correctly.

Thank you for stating this as some people do not understand how important this is. Controlled experiment 101. Anyone who actually uses this experiment to say one kit is better than another obviously has never taken a science course in their life nor published a legitimate science article.

With that said if you say this comparison has limitations in that it was only compared with the pads supplied by the given brand/dealer then the results are valid. I cannot read the article but if there is no section on limitations, this is a shitty experiment.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Mozgov

Thank you for stating this as some people do not understand how important this is. Controlled experiment 101. Anyone who actually uses this experiment to say one kit is better than another obviously has never taken a science course in their life nor published a legitimate science article.

With that said if you say this comparison has limitations in that it was only compared with the pads supplied by the given brand/dealer then the results are valid. I cannot read the article but if there is no section on limitations, this is a shitty experiment.

It's discussed in the article, and photos of the different compounds, that the test is performed with the compounds as supplied with the kits.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by r53s65e90

Nooooo! Brembo pads suck. They are really really really bad. Only suitable for quiet leisurely poser street driving in my experience. Stoptech street performance pads are great.

They suck also just a street pad.

[bigjae1976]

If they didn't get a ton of heat in the pads then I do think it's a decent comparison. While pads do affect a lot of braking attributes, bite and stopping power shouldn't be too off the norm.

If you're talking about max operating temps then different story. Which I'm pretty sure the test did not if they rated the ST kit/pads so high. If you can keep the temps in check, the ST pads can be an OK track pad.

But it's all in German. None of us know anything unless we can read German. I think some people are getting all huffy over a comparison they can't read...vendor included.

I CAN'T READ THE REVIEW BUT IT'S ALL WRONG, FALSE AND BLASPHEMOUS!

[r53s65e90]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

But it's all in German. None of us know anything unless we can read German. I think some people are getting all huffy over a comparison they can't read...vendor included.

I CAN'T READ THE REVIEW BUT IT'S ALL WRONG, FALSE AND BLASPHEMOUS!

I can read the review as can some other folks that posted some translated snippets. IMO it is a good review which I think describes the out of the box experience with the BBK. It matches my experience with brembo: 1) Really inadequate pads, worse than stock in terms of deposits at the track 2) Bleeder valves that needed to be tightened a little bit more than specified in the manual so as to not leak at the track. 3) Dust boots that disappear when it gets hot, which is not good for people in snow climates who would want to use the kit for driving at the track and during the winter. If you work with a good vendor, they will know all this.

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

They suck also just a street pad.

They suck much much much less.

[FFM]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Could it also be that people who couldn't afford Brembo and had to "settle" for cheaper StopTech

[1MOREMOD]

i have st and it was my low budget choice. if i had money brembo still wouldnt be in the picture it would be ap or maybe alcon. if i was building a starbucks hard parker with gold calipers then maybe brembo for extra scene points.