For those of you who chose E9x M3 over a newer F30 3-series.... why?

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by dmk08

My comments came from owning a launch F80 for 2 years and then a F82 Comp for almost 2 years. i would say Im pretty informed. I dont miss the F8x at all.

The steering is numb and horrible. Comp or not. The sound is also horrible. Those two items are not really debatable.

Funny thing is a disagree with you totally about thier uses too. The F8x is a better street car due to the torque. E9x is way more fun at the limit so I would prefer it on the track.

This. F80 sound and steering are atrocious. Period
The E92 is a dead fish on the street but move nicely on track.
To each their own...

[ERinEC]

Originally Posted by dmk08

My comments came from owning a launch F80 for 2 years and then a F82 Comp for almost 2 years. i would say Im pretty informed. I dont miss the F8x at all.

The steering is numb and horrible. Comp or not. The sound is also horrible. Those two items are not really debatable.

Funny thing is a disagree with you totally about thier uses too. The F8x is a better street car due to the torque. E9x is way more fun at the limit so I would prefer it on the track.

Don't meant to thread jack, but what kind of wheels are those?

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by ERinEC

Don't meant to thread jack, but what kind of wheels are those?

Top are HRE R101 and bottom are Signature SV104.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Bemo

This. F80 sound and steering are atrocious. Period
The E92 is a dead fish on the street but move nicely on track.
To each their own...

Ugh. I'm really trying to see the light but unfortunately, this is about where I'm at with the E9XM at this point.

Sadly, I'm loosing interest in it quickly. It is REALLY fast but only in an extremely narrow range = almost useless on the street.

[Richbot]

More front bar, more camber, and a wider front wheel make it just talkative enough imo. Stock I agree e9xm steering is not the greatest M car ever. In my hands/experience That honor goes to the Z4M. But they have worse suspension geometry and are terminally pushy-loose soooo compromises gonna compromise


I disagree on the 6mt f8x. I drove an ‘18 6mt with near-zero options on the 18’s and thought it was great fun. Until the car stopped tellin me what was going on in the corners we were getting along great. That gearbox/clutch combo is aan improvement on the E9xm

Anyway back to talking about appliances. Considering a new toaster, should I get a DeLonghi or a flame thrower?

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Richbot

More front bar, more camber, and a wider front wheel make it just talkative enough imo. Stock I agree e9xm steering is not the greatest M car ever. In my hands/experience That honor goes to the Z4M. But they have worse suspension geometry and are terminally pushy-loose soooo compromises gonna compromise


I disagree on the 6mt f8x. I drove an ‘18 6mt with near-zero options on the 18’s and thought it was great fun. Until the car stopped tellin me what was going on in the corners we were getting along great. That gearbox/clutch combo is aan improvement on the E9xm

Anyway back to talking about appliances. Considering a new toaster, should I get a DeLonghi or a flame thrower?

Yeah if anything I would say the 6MT is better paired and way better in the F8x than the E9x. Both my F8x were 6MT and my first E92 was.

The E9x was a freaking dog on the street with 6MT. I don't feel any of the fabled "torqueless" or "boring" characteristics in a DCT. This is the car that is truly better paired with one gearbox.

[Richbot]

Hey watch it now. I love my 6speed though I wish 3rd-5th gear were a little shorter. The DCT is more important to performance on the e9x though, just because the powerband is all way up there and that 2-3 shift/rev drop is a killer on the 6speed

And thus the thread has turned into what all threads on here eventually should be- 6mt vs dct

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Yeah if anything I would say the 6MT is better paired and way better in the F8x than the E9x. Both my F8x were 6MT and my first E92 was.

The E9x was a freaking dog on the street with 6MT. I don't feel any of the fabled "torqueless" or "boring" characteristics in a DCT. This is the car that is truly better paired with one gearbox.

Son of a bitch....

Sigh. Maybe I need a DCT w/Xpipe/tune and I'll be happy.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Son of a bitch....

Sigh. Maybe I need a DCT w/Xpipe/tune and I'll be happy.

I would definitely drive a DCT before making any decisions. Its not as engaging overall but man the downshift noises and the burst out of the hole are great. I think its almost 1/2 second faster 0-60 IIRC.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I would definitely drive a DCT before making any decisions. Its not as engaging overall but man the downshift noises and the burst out of the hole are great. I think its almost 1/2 second faster 0-60 IIRC.

I've zero issues with the so-called lack of involvement - I don't drink that koolaid. I've been driving SMG E46 M3s for over 10 years and LOVE the automated manuals for their effectiveness over the manual.

Manual is fun, yes. I've owned plenty of them as well, but as you say, some motors are better suited to certain transmission types.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Ugh. I'm really trying to see the light but unfortunately, this is about where I'm at with the E9XM at this point.

Sadly, I'm loosing interest in it quickly. It is REALLY fast but only in an extremely narrow range = almost useless on the street.

...where it is still faster than the e46 M3. Seriously, the M3 was not designed for stoplight drag racing.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by Richbot

More front bar, more camber, and a wider front wheel make it just talkative enough imo. Stock I agree e9xm steering is not the greatest M car ever. In my hands/experience That honor goes to the Z4M. But they have worse suspension geometry and are terminally pushy-loose soooo compromises gonna compromise


I disagree on the 6mt f8x. I drove an ‘18 6mt with near-zero options on the 18’s and thought it was great fun. Until the car stopped tellin me what was going on in the corners we were getting along great. That gearbox/clutch combo is aan improvement on the E9xm

Anyway back to talking about appliances. Considering a new toaster, should I get a DeLonghi or a flame thrower?

Actually the honor goes to the e30 M3...

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by DSilk

...where it is still faster than the e46 M3. Seriously, the M3 was not designed for stoplight drag racing.

Lol - ironically, the E9XM is actually only "fast" when you are drag racing it. Meaning, balls out, redlining each gear - THEN it's really really fast and extremely thrilling to drive.

But THAT is not practical on the street. What makes a good street car is a flexible motor with good midrange. The E46 M3 has a lot more midrange punch and so it's quite a bit more lively in normal driving.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Lol - ironically, the E9XM is actually only "fast" when you are drag racing it. Meaning, balls out, redlining each gear - THEN it's really really fast and extremely thrilling to drive.

But THAT is not practical on the street. What makes a good street car is a flexible motor with good midrange. The E46 M3 has a lot more midrange punch and so it's quite a bit more lively in normal driving.

It doesn't, and I owned one for about 6 to 7 years before I bought my current M3. The powerband is just as limited.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Dude, no. Look at the shape of the torque curves.

The S54 swells in the middle, S65 has a huge valley in the middle. Very different driving experience. I have both cars sitting in my garage - the motors feel nothing alike. Up top the S65 blows the doors on the S54, but everywhere else the S54 has more grunt.

Put your pride aside and let's just call things like they are.

See dyno of both on the same graph. This S65 is still quite a bit up at the area you are referring to.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

See dyno of both on the same graph. This S65 is still quite a bit up at the area you are referring to.

Sigh.

I'm not talking about absolute values. I'm talking about feel. Of course the S65 makes more raw power... that's why it's actually faster.

Look at the huge dip right in the midrange of the S65? THIS is why it feels sleepy on the street. Conversely, the S54 swells in the middle, giving the sensation of constantly increasing "zing". Totally different feeling motors. Combined with the 250 or so less pounds of the 46 and it really comes alive.

You go WOT at 5K rpm in both cars and things are very, very different. The S54 rips forward while the S65 is sleeping. Conversely, go WOT at 7k rpm in both cars and the opposite happens - the S54 is straining while the S65 rips your balls off and surges towards redline.

Completely and utterly different feeling motors. One is better suited to midrange use while the other for high rpm driving.

[srmast1]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

See dyno of both on the same graph. This S65 is still quite a bit up at the area you are referring to.

The e46 m3 weighs 3450 lbs, while the e92 and e90 m3 weigh 3645 lbs and 3715 lbs respectively. The e46 m3 is smaller and lighter, so I wonder if this has alot to do with it feeling "punchier" despite the s65 producing more torque and HP consistently throughout the power band (big dip or not, it's still making more torque) in comparison to the s55. The weight diff between the cars must have alot to do with the feeling of acceleration. At 5000 rpm the power to weight ratio of e92m to e46M is almost exactly the same so maybe it's the gearing that causes the difference in acceleration feel.

I test drove a m sport 440i with shift paddles. It's good looking, very quick, quiet and easy to drive. It did not have much character and you can feel the lack of tactile sensation with the numb steering. I feel that it is truly an appliance while my e90 M is a sports saloon beast. I would definitely own a f series car, but NOT as a fun, weekend car, but rather as my daily. Also, here in California the F series cars are all over the place and not so special while I rarely see e9x m vehicles.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by DSilk

Actually the honor goes to the e30 M3...

lol

No

The rack may let you know what’s going on, but that’s because the ratio is so slow it might as well be a tiller and on top of that, most of the information is “nope, tires still haven’t finished taking a set yet oops time for the next corner”

[Ngilbe36]

This may be one of the greatest, fastest evolving threads I've seen on here. Started as F30 vs E9X M3 then we morphed into E9X vs F8X (Classic) then 6MT vs DCT (CLASSIC) and now E9X vs E46 with a little E30 thrown in.


My .02 on the OP question - They are completely different cars.
F30 will be more comfortable as a DD in most ways.
E9X M3 will be more "fun". Probably less depreciation in the coming years as well, if you care about that sort of thing.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Sigh.

I'm not talking about absolute values. I'm talking about feel. Of course the S65 makes more raw power... that's why it's actually faster.

Look at the huge dip right in the midrange of the S65? THIS is why it feels sleepy on the street. Conversely, the S54 swells in the middle, giving the sensation of constantly increasing "zing". Totally different feeling motors. Combined with the 250 or so less pounds of the 46 and it really comes alive.

You go WOT at 5K rpm in both cars and things are very, very different. The S54 rips forward while the S65 is sleeping. Conversely, go WOT at 7k rpm in both cars and the opposite happens - the S54 is straining while the S65 rips your balls off and surges towards redline.

Completely and utterly different feeling motors. One is better suited to midrange use while the other for high rpm driving.

Okay, so you're talking about how the midrange feels relative to the peak power output for a specific engine, rather than relative to another engine. From that perspective I absolutely understand what you mean. The S65 feels mundane in the low to midrange compared to how it feels up top, whereas the S54 feels lively in the midrange because it's top end difference (vs midrange) isn't as great as with the S65. The S65 definitely pulls as hard or harder than the S54 in the midrange though, depending on level of mod/tune of course. That's what it seems like you are opposing.

Also, primary cat delete and tune help flatten that valley out quite well.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

Okay, so you're talking about how the midrange feels relative to the peak power output for a specific engine, rather than relative to another engine. From that perspective I absolutely understand what you mean. The S65 feels mundane in the low to midrange compared to how it feels up top, whereas the S54 feels lively in the midrange because it's top end difference (vs midrange) isn't as great as with the S65. The S65 definitely pulls as hard or harder than the S54 in the midrange though, depending on level of mod/tune of course. That's what it seems like you are opposing.

Also, primary cat delete and tune help flatten that valley out quite well.

Yes! We're on precisely the same page.

The S65 builds nicely from 3 to 4k and then it sorta goes 'flat' until around 6.5k with and then comes on HARD from that point on.

The S54 pulls cleanly, and consistently, starting at 2k and never lets up until its 8k redline - it's just one steady tractor-like pull without any peaks or valleys. It never explodes like the S65 up top nor does it go flat in the midrange. And so you could say that it's neither as exciting, nor as dull, as the S65.

People in this very thread are using "dead fish" and "dog on the street" to talk about the S65 when no one ever calls the S54 those things. It's always ready to go, any gear, any rpm. I would not call the S65 those things - I would call it "peaky". To me, the E90M feels quite a bit faster than the 46M when you wind both out - no question there. It's just that the 46M is much more rewarding even when you're not wringing its neck, if that makes sense.

It all comes down to the shape of the torque curve. If you smash the throttle in a dip the motor will feel flat. If you smash it on an upswing it will feel alive. The S65 has two big dips. The S54 has none. This is NOT to say that the E46 M3 is faster, just that, stock for stock, it's more peppy in the midragne. This is akin to saying that an M4 falls asleep up top relative to the S65 even though the M4 makes a lot more horsepower - the S65 will feel much more alive/peppy at higher rpms because its torque curve doesn't fall off like the M4s. The S65 is way more fun to redline even though it's much slower.

Now, all that said - I'm sure an xpipe/tune makes a huge difference in how these cars feel in the midrange. I'm also pretty sure that a DCT will feel a little more peppy, tit for tat, given the lower 1-3rd gear ratios. But even still - most modified S65 dynos still display the midrange torque lull - so even though the absolute value has been increased, the relative differences seem to remain and so I'm worried that modifying the car won't satisfy me. The only graph I've seen that truly eliminates the dip after 4k is that of the BW xpipe and Epic tune.

Great discussion, btw.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Why is my handle SoManyBlueCars? Because I own 2 blue BMWs, an e92 and an F30 328i xDrive.

Notes:
I'm the original owner of both
I've tracked my M3 multiple times
I have 108,000 miles on my F30 and it's only 4 years old.

Here's what I want in a daily driver. Good gas mileage. Good low-end grunt to deal with NJ traffic. Room for myself and 3 others to fit comfortably. Easy to maintain. Decent speed capability. All-weather ability. Good looks. Fun to drive every day.

The F30 is all of these things, but yes, the steering is numb. Otherwise, it's well designed and built and I love it. Ignore anyone that says otherwise.

Now, the M3 gets terrible mileage, and you need snows in winter, and it costs a lot more to maintain, but dynamically it's a superior car in every measurable dynamic. It should be, it's an M car.

Id never track an F30. I'd probably not daily an M3 considering where I live and how much I drive, but it can be done. These cars have different missions.

I like to compare them to my 2 favorite fighter jets. The M3 is an F-14 Tomcat. Big, heavy, time consuming and expensive to maintain. But it sure is pretty and it goes like stink. The 328 is an F-18. Cheaper, more reliable, requires less man power to maintain. But it's good at everything and great at nothing.