BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-03-2020, 04:27 PM   #45
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I can do friction in Aim, But I have been mostly analyzing the g-sum which is pretty much the same idea as the friction.

It allows me to see if I can maintain the g force all throughout the braking turning and accelerating phases.

I have been studying it extensively in prep for 2020. Depressing how many tenths i can save.

At the same time my g-sum is decent as far as transitioning maintaining over 1.1 during the whole turn. I think/hope I can get to 1.3.
I used to think high g-force was a good thing to see in every corner. Not so much anymore. If you have forward/acceleration G through a turn you won;t be at max lateral G. So, only a very small moment in each turn should spike to peak lateral G and the rest should be sharing braking or acceleration G's. Unless you are in a steady state long sweeper aka maintaining the same steering input through the corner for an extended period like you would on a skidpad.
Good points. i will review the corners with your information in mind.

The track I am analyzing does have a long 50mph corners so either I will make these "pointier" or it is indeed a sweepers with constant g-sum.

Lots to learn in 2020. I can't wait for March 28th to come soon enough
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2020, 05:29 PM   #46
dparm
Stop the hate, get a V8
dparm's Avatar
United_States
3848
Rep
8,625
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette GS, AMG C63 S
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Frisco, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
I used to think high g-force was a good thing to see in every corner. Not so much anymore. If you have forward/acceleration G through a turn you won;t be at max lateral G. So, only a very small moment in each turn should spike to peak lateral G and the rest should be sharing braking or acceleration G's. Unless you are in a steady state long sweeper aka maintaining the same steering input through the corner for an extended period like you would on a skidpad.

Exactly why I mentioned plotting the friction circle, which is sort of a histogram for Gsum. :-)
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 1
bbnks21206.50
      03-03-2020, 08:04 PM   #47
admranger
Retired Curmudgeon
admranger's Avatar
United_States
2982
Rep
4,046
Posts

Drives: ‘19 X3M40i, ‘18 m550i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (1)

Make your g-force trace look like a “T”. Collect trophy.
__________________

'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '23 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Summit, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS
Appreciate 0
      03-04-2020, 07:48 AM   #48
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

This tells you how to do a friction circle
I watched it.
I can watch it again if it will make me faster. :-)

Appreciate 0
      03-05-2020, 04:10 AM   #49
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

I created a friction circle last night on my best lap at NYST. It is the same as g-sum but it helps see "loops" in the graph that show inconsistence coordination between gas, brakes and steering angle.

Previously I had all three graphs on the screen to analyze the same data.

One more way to look at the same data.

Thanks for the advice
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2020, 05:09 PM   #50
Kelse92
Major
United_States
1132
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: Former e92 M3 Owner
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Hey, bumping up your thread here really quick to ask. Have you gotten around to testing any 285/35/19 rear tires yet? I am curious about running some on a 19x10.5 or 11 in the rear.... Seeing mixed reviews on fitment.
__________________

#ladydriven Heavy-spec M3 // KW Clubsports // AA x-pipe // Gintani muffler // Macht-Schnell intake // Gintani tune // OMP Seats // Too Many Apex Wheels // Stoptech ST-60 // Cobalt Friction brake pads
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2020, 07:36 PM   #51
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelse92 View Post
Hey, bumping up your thread here really quick to ask. Have you gotten around to testing any 285/35/19 rear tires yet? I am curious about running some on a 19x10.5 or 11 in the rear.... Seeing mixed reviews on fitment.
I have not.
I settled on testing two sizes, 275/35/ and 295/30/19

There is not much of a selection at the 285/35.
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2020, 10:27 PM   #52
Kelse92
Major
United_States
1132
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: Former e92 M3 Owner
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
I have not.
I settled on testing two sizes, 275/35/ and 295/30/19

There is not much of a selection at the 285/35.
Yeah, the GY Supercar 3’s have me a bit interested. I’m limited to 200tw and 285 max width tires so they seemed like maybe a good test. 285/30 was too short when I tested on my DCT car
__________________

#ladydriven Heavy-spec M3 // KW Clubsports // AA x-pipe // Gintani muffler // Macht-Schnell intake // Gintani tune // OMP Seats // Too Many Apex Wheels // Stoptech ST-60 // Cobalt Friction brake pads
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2020, 01:32 PM   #53
dparm
Stop the hate, get a V8
dparm's Avatar
United_States
3848
Rep
8,625
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette GS, AMG C63 S
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Frisco, TX

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a “T”. Collect trophy.

Underrated post
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 1
admranger2981.50
      03-11-2020, 05:12 PM   #54
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a “T”. Collect trophy.

Underrated post
I always thought the aim was a skull
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2020, 08:22 PM   #55
admranger
Retired Curmudgeon
admranger's Avatar
United_States
2982
Rep
4,046
Posts

Drives: ‘19 X3M40i, ‘18 m550i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
I always thought the aim was a skull
Skull of a hammerhead shark.

There’s ideal and then there’s what us mere mortals can do with sedans. The idea is that you want to always be transitioning. Your either accelerating, braking, or cornering. The higher the g-forces you can generate in each situation and the faster you can transition between them the better.

There’s no coasting on track.
__________________

'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '23 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Summit, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS

Last edited by admranger; 03-15-2020 at 08:27 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2020, 02:06 PM   #56
dparm
Stop the hate, get a V8
dparm's Avatar
United_States
3848
Rep
8,625
Posts

Drives: C7 Corvette GS, AMG C63 S
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Frisco, TX

iTrader: (1)

Short version is that you want to keep things on the circumference of the ball for your transitions.

Another interesting metric that's related is to calculate total time on accelerator PLUS total time on brake.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2020, 06:51 PM   #57
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Short version is that you want to keep things on the circumference of the ball for your transitions.

Another interesting metric that's related is to calculate total time on accelerator PLUS total time on brake.
I have been specifically analyzing my transition from brakes to the gas pedal. I cringe every time I see a gap. This is something I am learning on the AiM software this winter.

I have to say that between YouTube AiM learning videos and playing a lot more with RaceAnalysis3 m. I am in a lot better position to learn during the track day what I should work on.

While I have seen others using iRacing and other AI solutions, I am happy spending the time on learning AiM and learning the software.
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2020, 06:54 PM   #58
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a "T". Collect trophy.

Underrated post
I always thought the aim was a skull
I don't understand this comment. Perhaps inside joke?
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2020, 07:03 PM   #59
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a "T". Collect trophy.

Underrated post
I always thought the aim was a skull
I don't understand this comment. Perhaps inside joke?
It's not an inside joke. A proper g force trace will look like a skull. Lat G x-axis. Long G y-axis. EAch point plotted. I'll try to find a picture.
Appreciate 0
      03-18-2020, 05:15 AM   #60
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a "T". Collect trophy.

Underrated post
I always thought the aim was a skull
I don't understand this comment. Perhaps inside joke?
It's not an inside joke. A proper g force trace will look like a skull. Lat G x-axis. Long G y-axis. EAch point plotted. I'll try to find a picture.
thanks
Appreciate 0
      03-18-2020, 07:23 AM   #61
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by admranger View Post
Make your g-force trace look like a "T". Collect trophy.

Underrated post
I always thought the aim was a skull
I don't understand this comment. Perhaps inside joke?
It's not an inside joke. A proper g force trace will look like a skull. Lat G x-axis. Long G y-axis. EAch point plotted. I'll try to find a picture.
thanks
Not quite a skull but you get the general idea
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      03-18-2020, 07:38 AM   #62
SQ13
Second Lieutenant
197
Rep
283
Posts

Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Austin

iTrader: (0)

Hmm
Appreciate 0
      03-18-2020, 08:26 AM   #63
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SQ13 View Post
Hmm
You probably never saw a cloud that looked like a puppy or a whale.
Appreciate 1
tsk941514.50
      03-18-2020, 10:07 PM   #64
admranger
Retired Curmudgeon
admranger's Avatar
United_States
2982
Rep
4,046
Posts

Drives: ‘19 X3M40i, ‘18 m550i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (1)

I think in a perfect world you always want to be on the edge of the circle (e.g., maximizing total g-force available) so the T isn’t quite right. The skull is a better description.

I’m old and have been playing COVID-19 response planning stuff. Got my wires crossed.

A hole, not a T, is what you want. Sorry for the confusion.

BTW: the actual shape of the skull is car dependent.
__________________

'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '23 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Summit, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS
Appreciate 1
      04-04-2020, 08:42 AM   #65
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

What a sad thread. The plan was by now to have one trackday data and getting ready for a second trackday April 20th. Instead, nothing.

Substituting real data, I made my own race track and collecting data from this. Not perfect, but something to do.

This is AiM overlaid on Google map
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2020, 09:01 AM   #66
rhyary
Colonel
rhyary's Avatar
United_States
1557
Rep
2,858
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Albany, NY

iTrader: (0)

Google map of my best lap and the one that follow.
best is 1:35.7
next lap 1:36.7 (so one second a part)
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST