Help - KMs -How high is too high?

[lloydv]

Hi M3post!

I'm new here! but I have been a forum user for years. I'm Looking for some purchase advice.

I am currently looking at 2008 BMW M3 Coupe - MT
The car has 230,000kms on it, and they are asking 23k cad for it...

The car has had its rod bearings upgraded, which is why I'm interested in this car. plus, It looks clean in the images. Things to note... I'm fairly mechanically minded and happy to do most maintenance work myself - with the help of youtube.

Tell me... am I crazy? Is buying a high KM m3 a bad idea? I know it depends on maintenance, I'm just looking for a bit of insight.

Thank you in advance.

Lloyd

[m235boy]

Originally Posted by lloydv

Hi M3post!

I'm new here! but I have been a forum user for years. I'm Looking for some purchase advice.

I am currently looking at 2008 BMW M3 Coupe - MT
The car has 230,000kms on it, and they are asking 23k cad for it...

The car has had its rod bearings upgraded, which is why I'm interested in this car. plus, It looks clean in the images. Things to note... I'm fairly mechanically minded and happy to do most maintenance work myself - with the help of youtube.

Tell me... am I crazy? Is buying a high KM m3 a bad idea? I know it depends on maintenance, I'm just looking for a bit of insight.

Thank you in advance.

Lloyd

That price is high for an 08 with that mileage, I'd pay max 17k

[MikeyDawg]

143k miles .... 17.3k USD for those wondering.

Think we'd need more info about maintenance history to really give a fair assessment.

If the car was well maintained, is up to date on service, and has some of the other major ticket items (throttle actuators for example) replaced recently then the price is probably fair.

Orginal clutch? What else has been done?

Need more input Johnny 5.

[Teknically]

The Canadian market is completely different than the US market. The prices are way higher up north.

I bought my 2008 M3 last winter with 195km and paid CAD21K. Keep in mind the seller was pissed at the snow and wanted the car gone asap.

Always dealer and bimmer specialist maintained, needed front shocks and rod bearings service not performed.

Since the interior was immaculate and owner ''appeared'' to be a mature driver, I concluded 200km was more than acceptable.

After 1 year of ownership, I can say I was right.



If the car you look at is solid, feels right and you have a good feeling about how it was treated : go for it ! Just ask for that off-season discount.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Teknically

The Canadian market is completely different than the US market. The prices are way higher up north.

I bought my 2008 M3 last winter with 195km and paid CAD21K. Keep in mind the seller was pissed at the snow and wanted the car gone asap.

Always dealer and bimmer specialist maintained, needed front shocks and rod bearings service not performed.

Since the interior was immaculate and owner ''appeared'' to be a mature driver, I concluded 200km was more than acceptable.

After 1 year of ownership, I can say I was right.



If the car you look at is solid, feels right and you have a good feeling about how it was treated : go for it ! Just ask for that off-season discount.

Agree with this. If the car is "proven" to be maintained and looked after go for it. However even if pain, interior etc is in good shape at 230k km I'd still carefully check what's done and needs to be done. Bearings, throttle actuators, shocks, pads/rotors, plugs, tires etc etc ad up to SIGNIFICANT money.

Good luck!

Ps. And for sure try to get a scan done, if the seller doesn't have one its even worth to borrow/buy to check possible codes lurking.

[6ixSpd]

That's a sub $20k car up here. There are several in that price range with far less KM, and 200k KM cars around the $17k-$20k mark.

[Scharbag]

Depends. There are 200k cars out there that you can tell are high milers. There are 50k cars out there that have been hammered on every day and you can tell.

Then there are 200k cars that have been well maintained, washed, waxed etc. that you would never suspect they are such high mileage examples.

Mileage is not the only thing that affects the value of the vehicle.

[GORDON.M3]

200K is far too high for the asking price, you can easily get a car with 120,000km on it for mid-low 20s in Toronto. Expect to leave some money for maintenance though. Owning an M is not cheap.

[decimation1]

Just my 2 cents.... My 233k MILES e90 M3 looks like it has 23k, it's been super well maintained and runs and drives like it.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by GORDON.M3

200K is far too high for the asking price, you can easily get a car with 120,000km on it for mid-low 20s in Toronto. Expect to leave some money for maintenance though. Owning an M is not cheap.

Out west, we call those 120k KM cars from Toronto "Easter Bunnies" due to the salt used on the roads...

Personally, I would rather a well maintained 200k car from BC/AB/SK than a 50k car from ON/PQ - unless the easterly car was never winter driven.

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Out west, we call those 120k KM cars from Toronto "Easter Bunnies" due to the salt used on the roads...

Personally, I would rather a well maintained 200k car from BC/AB/SK than a 50k car from ON/PQ - unless the easterly car was never winter driven.

That is very true, hence why I mentioned that our market here is always lower in price (winter driven cars). I would buy a Toronto car but never a Quebec car, too many cars hacked up into pieces and put back together.

I feel that 200k is too high considering the kinda wear I've seen from the rod bearings at 50,000km.

An engine builder locally said at 200k it's about time to inspect the main bearings. Unless the person has used Ceratec or MOS2 for every oil change and did it religiously the bearing wear on the mains is inevitable.

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by GORDON.M3

I feel that 200k is too high considering the kinda wear I've seen from the rod bearings at 50,000km.

An engine builder locally said at 200k it's about time to inspect the main bearings. Unless the person has used Ceratec or MOS2 for every oil change and did it religiously the bearing wear on the mains is inevitable.

Doesn’t matter what you put in the engine.

The factors that matter:

How was the car driven. Highway miles? Red line ever? How soon does the person fix misfires or issues? Keeping the crank balanced at all times, and the engine running well is important. The main bearings are going to wear. No matter what you put in the engine. Keeping the wear even is what is key to preventing failure. These engines should go 300k+ on original main bearings. As long as you replace rod bearings to keep the rotating assembly in harmony.

E39 M5 i assume have the same or similar main bearings. And those engines go forever.

S65 uses valve angle to reduce engine wear, and increase performance. It also uses a different closed loop ECU, and knock detection. The ECU will correct for mechanical deficiencies in the engine to limit the wear, and mechanical part failure.

Yes. We have seen s65s with main bearing failure. And the same with e39. But it has nothing to do with mileage.

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Doesn’t matter what you put in the engine.

The factors that matter:

How was the car driven. Highway miles? Red line ever? How soon does the person fix misfires or issues? Keeping the crank balanced at all times, and the engine running well is important. The main bearings are going to wear. No matter what you put in the engine. Keeping the wear even is what is key to preventing failure. These engines should go 300k+ on original main bearings. As long as you replace rod bearings to keep the rotating assembly in harmony.

E39 M5 i assume have the same or similar main bearings. And those engines go forever.

S65 uses valve angle to reduce engine wear, and increase performance. It also uses a different closed loop ECU, and knock detection. The ECU will correct for mechanical deficiencies in the engine to limit the wear, and mechanical part failure.

Yes. We have seen s65s with main bearing failure. And the same with e39. But it has nothing to do with mileage.

I would agree with maintenance. I do my plugs every 25,000km and o2 sensors by 30,000km. Its the small things that keep these engines running, but come on, how many people are there out there that actually do these things?

You'd be surprised how well Ceratec works on these engines. Especially MOS2.

Do you build engines for a living? Do you race these engines?

I know two engine builders that swear by Molyslip, MOS2 and Ceratec on these engines.

I have also done/used MOS2 and Ceratec for every single oil change on my M3, and the Blackstone UOAs (done at every single oil change) is immaculate. The wear on the engine has been at an all-time low in comparison to the averages and engines they have seen.

[bmwpower603]

Your right. Not many people do maintenance the way they should on these cars. They just drive the shit out of them. Hats off to you for being meticulous in your maintenance. I’m the same way. I’ve only had mine for a year though. But was maintained at the dealership.

I’m not an engine builder. But I have learned a lot from an engineer, BMW ADP teacher, and bmw pit monitor on the bmw race team.

Funny you mention the o2 sensors. He was telling me that they fail in a certain way that won’t trip the ECU to show a fault. I have yet to do mine, since the spark plugs fixed my misfire issue.

He also told me. The only thing he’s seen fail on these engines that are properly maintained. Is the chain tensioners. Which will just cause noise on cold starts.

How many miles are on your m3? Do you ever notice when the car idles for a while, the ignition cruise changes. Almost like the idle goes up a little bit then goes back to normal. Maybe it only happens when warming up. Wasn’t sure if this is normal. And maybe caused from my o2 sensors being faulty.

[SYT_Shadow]

I'm fine with buying a 250k km car... as long as it's been well maintained!

And if other Canadians are telling you the price is too high... listen to them


Personally I don't want a car with rod bearings done. I'll do them myself. I don't trust others to do work properly

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Doesn’t matter what you put in the engine.

The factors that matter:

How was the car driven. Highway miles? Red line ever? How soon does the person fix misfires or issues? Keeping the crank balanced at all times, and the engine running well is important. The main bearings are going to wear. No matter what you put in the engine. Keeping the wear even is what is key to preventing failure. These engines should go 300k+ on original main bearings. As long as you replace rod bearings to keep the rotating assembly in harmony.

E39 M5 i assume have the same or similar main bearings. And those engines go forever.

S65 uses valve angle to reduce engine wear, and increase performance. It also uses a different closed loop ECU, and knock detection. The ECU will correct for mechanical deficiencies in the engine to limit the wear, and mechanical part failure.

Yes. We have seen s65s with main bearing failure. And the same with e39. But it has nothing to do with mileage.

Agree - modern oils are very well designed and will do the job just fine without additional additives. Additionally, reducing friction is not the reason that oil is flows through hydrodynamic bearings - creating the hydrodynamic wedge is the reason. Yes, reduced friction at startup will help etc. but there is very little real friction ever occurring with properly designed hydrodynamic bearings. If additives really were so great, everyone would use them.

I would like to discuss the use-cases you mentioned though:

How it was driven - yes, there is a difference between abusive driving and driving fast. Most abusive driving will be harder on suspensions and transmissions than the engine. Engines are built to spin under load.

Highway miles - well, yes, these are easy miles and this is a valid point. But again, mostly for the rest of the chassis than the engine (with the assumption that it is maintained and not abused).

Red line ever - it is an M3. Red line often is expected!!

Miss-fire etc. - This goes to proper maintenance and care and I agree this is important.

Crank balance - Not sure how one is expected to affect crank balance over the life of the car...

Main bearing wear - Yes, bearings "wear." But, and this has some big ifs, IF the bearing is properly designed AND the oil system can provide adequate flow, there is minimal wear at speed. Main bearings have way less loading on them compared to rod big-ends as they simply spin in a round hole. Main bearings should last longer than the rest of the car. Look at the plethora of high RPM I4, V6, I6, V8 and V10 engines out there - main bearings are typically not an issue for the life of the chassis. We agree on this principal, I just disagree that there is SFA we can do about it - if the engine is not built properly, it is what it is.

ECU - Yes, the engine is controlled for longevity - but there is nothing the ECU can do to extend the life of the engine if it is built wrong or has a fundamental issue. Well, other than retarding timing to the point of going into limp mode.

Anywhoo, I am off to see if I can hit redline!!

Cheers,

[akkando]

Originally Posted by decimation1

Just my 2 cents.... My 233k MILES e90 M3 looks like it has 23k, it's been super well maintained and runs and drives like it.

What's oil consumption like?

[akkando]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Your right. Not many people do maintenance the way they should on these cars. They just drive the shit out of them. Hats off to you for being meticulous in your maintenance. I’m the same way. I’ve only had mine for a year though. But was maintained at the dealership.

I’m not an engine builder. But I have learned a lot from an engineer, BMW ADP teacher, and bmw pit monitor on the bmw race team.

Funny you mention the o2 sensors. He was telling me that they fail in a certain way that won’t trip the ECU to show a fault. I have yet to do mine, since the spark plugs fixed my misfire issue.

He also told me. The only thing he’s seen fail on these engines that are properly maintained. Is the chain tensioners. Which will just cause noise on cold starts.

How many miles are on your m3? Do you ever notice when the car idles for a while, the ignition cruise changes. Almost like the idle goes up a little bit then goes back to normal. Maybe it only happens when warming up. Wasn’t sure if this is normal. And maybe caused from my o2 sensors being faulty.

If my car idles far a long time it will do that, not sure if normal.

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by akkando

If my car idles far a long time it will do that, not sure if normal.

What are the miles on your m?

Have you done coil packs?

Have you done o2 sensors?

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Your right. Not many people do maintenance the way they should on these cars. They just drive the shit out of them. Hats off to you for being meticulous in your maintenance. I’m the same way. I’ve only had mine for a year though. But was maintained at the dealership.

I’m not an engine builder. But I have learned a lot from an engineer, BMW ADP teacher, and bmw pit monitor on the bmw race team.

Funny you mention the o2 sensors. He was telling me that they fail in a certain way that won’t trip the ECU to show a fault. I have yet to do mine, since the spark plugs fixed my misfire issue.

He also told me. The only thing he’s seen fail on these engines that are properly maintained. Is the chain tensioners. Which will just cause noise on cold starts.

How many miles are on your m3? Do you ever notice when the car idles for a while, the ignition cruise changes. Almost like the idle goes up a little bit then goes back to normal. Maybe it only happens when warming up. Wasn’t sure if this is normal. And maybe caused from my o2 sensors being faulty.

I've got about 50,000 miles on it as of today. Got it when it was roughly at 30k miles, did rod bearings shortly after I got it. The car was immaculate, but the rod bearings not so much. Blackstone Oil UOA reported 21ppm of lead on the first oil change ever done on the car, got worried and did the rod bearings. Once the rod bearings were done, I started using Ceratec every single 5k miles oil interval.

Blackstone UOA reports were cleaner than a whistle, 0 levels of lead and extremely low levels of metal wear at all across the board. Blackstone reported that the rod bearings were the only thing wearing prior to the bearing change, they also mentioned that the Liquimoly Ceratec/MOS2 treatment is doing extremely well in keeping the engine in shape!

The previous owner of my car did service religiously, his oil change intervals were a bit long but the SA sold him on O2 sensors and Sparkplug changes. I have a phone book of service records, even a driveshaft replacement that costs nearly $4k out of pocket.

I've continued the religious preventative maintenance on this car, spark plugs and o2s very so often considering the amount of mileage the car has added up to today. I can tell you now, the car drives like if it were rolled out of a showroom today. I've driven a brand new E92 way back and I can confidently say my car feels just a good if not better. Considering the older DME software was down on power compared to today's 241E software.

If you leave the car idle for a few minutes, the RPMs will slowly creep back-up and engage a coldstart like cycle again. That is completely normal (part of OEM engine software). But if your RPMs are bouncing when warming up, keep an eye out on your fuel breather line or idle control valve. My idle is tack sharp and doesn't budge a bit even on -20 degrees winter mornings here in Toronto.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

What are the miles on your m?

Have you done coil packs?

Have you done o2 sensors?

78k miles. Had it only since very late September at 75k miles. Previous owner had recently done plugs but not coil packs or o2 sensors.

[Drifter2090]

I think even if the car is clean and the bearings are done, that's too high of a price for the mileage.