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01-12-2020, 05:28 AM | #1 |
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HPDE experiments, results and observations
This thread will be used to describe my experiments, results and observations.
I am starting the 4th season tracking my 2013 E92 M3. So far I have roughly 70 track days over 3 years. I am looking to do 20 trackdays this year split evenly between NYST and LRP. Last edited by rhyary; 10-03-2022 at 03:03 PM.. |
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01-12-2020, 05:40 AM | #3 |
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Tires Philosophy
Cheap is good and front and rear do not have to match. While I don't expect to set lap times records, I don't know how slower it is from top speed. But I will find out :-) Reference would be Hoosier R7 265/35/19 front, 295/30/19 rear. Best Laptime NYST 1:35.7. Cost $1521 a set with a coupon from trackdaytire. For the majority of the trackdays I will be experimenting with tires on number of levels and using Aim, I am going to monitor performance and wear. I am trying to focus on spending $200 per tire. Using eBay and used tires combination. For alignment I am going to see what Front max negative camber I can get. Rears are on -2.0 and for now I'll stay on -2.0 |
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01-12-2020, 05:44 AM | #4 |
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Tire Sizes
This year I will be focusing on two front sizes 1. 275/30/19 2. 265/35/19 For the rear I have three options: 1. 295/30/19 - verified fitment 2. 285/35/19 - to be tested for fitment 3. 275/35/19 - verified fitment A particular combination I am curious about is the square one. 275/30/19 front and 275/35/19 rear. |
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01-12-2020, 09:06 AM | #5 | |
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I think the problem statement you’re trying to solve is: “what is the optimal camber at the rear of my car?” However, randomly throwing tires at the rear will result in random results. Each tire (e.g., R7) has a sweet spot for camber. Throwing tires, including mismatched compounds, on the car will lead to indeterminate results and likely, frustration. Now, if your goal is to turn gas into noise; carry on.
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'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '21 X7 40i AW/Black, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS |
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01-12-2020, 09:31 AM | #6 | ||
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My objective is to do as many trackdays as possible at a given budget. Meaning, I am trying to optimize my budget to get the most enjoyment. That means being on the track and driving in circles. If I can do 20 days on creative tire choices, or 10 days on the obvious expensive choice, I choose 20 days. With all the expertise expressed on this forum, no one have yet quantify their opinion with laptime numbers. I am not trying to optimize the rear. -2.0 is fine. On the front, I am trying to optimize the wear of the tires to last two track days at NYST. At -3.0 I was not able to finish two days doing my best time so far. You are correctly observes that this sport is about compromise. What I don't know, but will find out, is the ratio between tire longevity and laptime. By maximizing the -camber, you are right, braking will be less effective. But is that .0001 second or 1 second? If I sacrifice .001 sec laptime but would able to gain few sessions before cording the tires, than my objective of driving the car in circle would be accomplish. I hope this clarify. On a personal note, in my whole life, this is the only place I have been "accused" of engaging in "random" activity. But I am totally fine with that :-) |
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01-12-2020, 10:32 AM | #7 |
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Taking Notes and Keeping them together with AiM data.
I am guilty at not taking enough notes in the last 3 years. For this year I will be storing more detailed notes in the AiM data file so I can review the lap times together with setup information. |
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01-12-2020, 10:41 AM | #8 |
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Fair enough! Good luck!
BTW: there’s nothing wrong with just going out there and turning gas into noise. It’s where I’ve been for a decade. Only thing I’m chasing is retirement.
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'19 X3 M40 Carbon Black/Oyster, '21 X7 40i AW/Black, Past BMWs: '18 M550i, '18 330 GT, '16 X5 40e, '11 E90M3, '06 X5 4.4, '03 330i ZHP, '02 M3, '97 Z3 2.8, '95 M3 (2x), '94 530i (manual), '92 525i (manual), '88 M3, '87 325iS |
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01-12-2020, 10:52 AM | #9 |
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If you want additional consistency from tires, find a place that has (or sell a child to buy) a tire purging and drying system. The goal of it is to reduce the moisture content when the tire is filled with air or nitrogen so you get more consistent and less dramatic tire pressure peaks. They also have tools that are much cheaper that measure moisture content for the air in the tire and that may be a useful thing to keep track of.
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01-12-2020, 11:50 AM | #10 | |
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No matter what I do with cars, my wife categorize it as turning dollars into noise and I don't blame her. |
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01-12-2020, 11:52 AM | #11 | |
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01-12-2020, 01:57 PM | #12 |
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Well, since you don't care about running the same tires front/rear you could do hankook RS4 275/35r19 in the rear. And don't scoff at their price because they last forever on track, they will handle heat a lot better than your other street tire choices, and before they overheat (which they still will do if you run a few laps near their limit) they are probably only 1-1.5 second slower than NT01 on a 2 minute track.
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01-12-2020, 02:49 PM | #13 | |
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I will put those on my list to watch for. I have search for 275/35/19 saved on eBay and will see what shows up over time. |
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01-12-2020, 03:59 PM | #14 |
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I found a second new FFI500 on Amazon for $182.
So FFI500 from eBay $162 Total front $344. I have a MPSS 275/35/19 from eBay one for $130 and another for 224. So my first track day I will be running square 275. Two new FFI500 275/30/19 Two previously loved MPSS 275/35/19 For a total of $698.00 not mounted. Now let's see what kind of lap times I can get and for how long they will last |
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01-13-2020, 01:06 AM | #15 | |
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Inboard is where you want to pay attention to. https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...aring-Kit.html Other stuff to consider include outboard rear upper wishbone and guide arms: https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1615006 If you can design for the tapered seat on the knuckle, Meyle HD or Lemforder (preferred) spherical bearings can work or just buy aftermarket complete replacement arms. RTABs, good choice. Never knew Rogue engineered some. You'll notice once you press bushes or at least remove the arms, most are the same size throughout the car. Also, these bushes on the knuckle sit slightly off centre which affects geometry. Take note of what they are before removal. Do you already have RSFBs? The fuel tank sits very close to the inner RTAB. May as well knock both out at the same time. |
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01-13-2020, 07:42 AM | #16 | ||
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Does this changes your recommendation? . |
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01-13-2020, 12:25 PM | #17 |
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@admranger,
>> More camber results in less braking force available. The rear of the E90 doesn't need too much camber to work well. I think dogbone answer this concern the best: https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=25677454 |
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01-13-2020, 08:20 PM | #18 | |
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Didn't know Rogue had an offering for 553 (inner lower camber arm joint). Let us know how it goes from the piece itself, installation ease etc. |
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01-17-2020, 02:10 PM | #19 |
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I am looking for this tape to keep my wheel weights from flying off.
Can someone confirm this take or provide a link to what works? Thanks in advance 3M 3311 Silver Aluminum Foil Tape - 1 in. x 5 yd. Vapor Resistant Rubber Adhesive Foil Tape Roll. Adhesives and Tapes https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7EOT0..._DrHiEbPY0VWEX |
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01-17-2020, 02:25 PM | #20 | |
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01-17-2020, 04:16 PM | #21 | ||
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01-18-2020, 10:54 AM | #22 |
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I decided to start the season, if the winter ever be over - feels like eternity - with the square setup.
So on the front I am mounting the two new Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 275/30/19. On the rear I am mounting previously loved but in good shape Michelin Pilot Sport 275/35/19. I think the tires are similar enough that the dominate experience would be the square setup, rather than the difference between the front and rear tires. I will be doing alignment changes. When the car gets to ACM we will see maximum negative camber we can get to and what the toe value at that camber. The rear is on -2.0, but I saw that @dogbone likes -2.2 and I can see if that would be possible. Other than that, not much can be done until end of March track day at LRP with SCDA My goal until July is to try different tires I have collected over the winter at moderate pace and concentrating on driving with DSC off and feel the traction provided. Once the weather get to hot days, I will be using the Proxe RR 295/30/19 and the PSC2 265/35/19 to push hard and see how this combination works. I got the RR for $200 a tire and the Cup2 for a bit more. I have 3 sets ready in that combination. Once I see data and lap times at NYST and LRP, I can make some decisions on what works and what does not. |
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